I had posted about the initial stages of this previously in a different thread. Now that it's final, I wanted to create a separate thread for informational purposes (and probably a bit of a rant).

I had an issue with my four year old 642 (I purchased it new). The hammer pin broke, so I sent it back to S&W for service. Based on my ammo purchases, it had 100 rounds of +P (Remington/Speer) and a couple thousands rounds of standard pressure FMJ through it. Half the FMJ was a mix of Federal and Winchester. Half was Armscore.

They evaluated the pistol and said the yoke bolt was worn out and the hammer pin was broken. The pistol was considered non-repairable. They determined those items were considered normal wear and tear, not material defects, and not covered by the lifetime service repair policy. They also told me they consider any foreign ammo, including Armscore, the same as reloads, not as factory ammo. I don't think I'd seen that about foreign ammo in their manual, but I could easily missed it.

When I asked how a pistol rated for continuous +P service could be worn out at 2,000 rounds of standard pressure ammo, the supervisor's response (over the phone) was their pistols can worn out with a single round of standard pressure ammo. I escalated, but they came back and said no. They'd sell me a new pistol at a small discount or I can have the old pistol back.

In the past I've gotten really great service from S&W under the service repair policy. This seems out of character. I wanted to post because I see others posting about how great the S&W Service Repair Policy is. I'm wondering if S&W is changing how they administer that policy.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Sounds like you got the screws put to you and it makes me sad.

On the other hand, it is unlikely to ever affect me directly-- I have no plans (actually less so) to but current S&W products. In the last decade, their only good selling point (IMO) has been their customer support, but if that is eroding also, we're left only with great memories and a cool logo.

I agree with “Sevens” that this is a terribly unfortunate situation....

If this gun was produced after 1989 and unless there were obvious signs that it had been tampered with or abused, I see no reason that S&W should not to honor their warranty.

It’s a fact that all mechanical things made by man are subject to failure at some point and that is exactly why the warranty is offered. Unless they can point to clear evidence to prove otherwise, I would ask again (nicely) for them to reconsider their position.

Let us know how the saga continues.

That pretty much sucks if you ask me. To me, that is saying that their concealed carry revolvers are junk if you can wear them out with a couple of thousand rounds of normal ammo. And tells me to buy an equivalent weapon from the competition, Ruger, Colt or Kimber.

Odd that S&W would talk about a "yoke bolt". Maybe yoke screw but I have never heard of a yoke "bolt" on a S&W revolver. I don't understand how a worn yoke screw and a broken hammer pin would make it "non-repairable" . Get it back and find someone with a bit of skill.

On a steel frame gun replacing a hammer stud is very doable. Alloy frame guns are a different kind animal, especially on a gun with such a low price point to begin with.

One thing you should never do is dry fire a Smith revolver with the sideplate off. Very hard on the studs. The sideplate supports the studs' free ends. When it's removed the studs are cantilevered and very weak.

__________________
~ S&W aficionado in training ~

I AGREE muddocktor. I AM TOTALLY DONE WITH PURCHASING ANY NEW S&W PRODUCTS....

IN THE WORDS OF B.B. KING----"THE THRILL IS GONE"......

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Just to be clear, I am NOT advocating for people to stop buying new S&W firearms. I like my 640. I like my Shields. I have another 642 that’s been dead nuts reliable.

I am saying one of the value added features of purchasing a new S&W firearm has been the lifetime service repair policy. Even though that policy still exists and the wording of that policy is the same, how it’s being administered appears to be changing for the worse. That impacts the value proposition when considering S&W.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

To a new S&W buyer this is not good at all!

Totally agree. Hopefully their pro series is truly a better made product and maybe even has better support....but who knows.

Point #1 -- Not to question the original poster's account, but let's face it -- we have only his account, and nothing of S&W's side. Can a hammer pin break and a "yoke bolt" wear out in just 2000 rounds? I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing a service life stated for a 642. I do recall that when S&W's first unsuccessful, utterly pathetic .380 came out they made it clear that 2000 rounds was about as far as it would go.

Point #2 -- To the original poster, assuming you are giving us a complete and honest report, I feel your pain. You may well have a legitimate gripe that S&W should address. Assuming that you do -- what can we do about it? My suggestion would be to make further enquiries at S&W by phone or, preferably, letter and find someone who will listen to your plight. Nobody there is out to screw you, or themselves, by ignoring a real problem -- but being human beings, I am sure there is an employee or two there who may not be completely on the ball when it comes to customer service.

__________________
Pisgah

It's an honest presentation of the facts. You can choose to believe them, be skeptical, or completely discount them.

A couple points in response to yours...

#1 When I sent the pistol in, I told them the 642 had a couple thousands rounds through it and specifically asked if that was close to the service life. I was told "no way, not even close."

#2 Like I mentioned in the original post...
Others that are considering purchasing an S&W firearm based on perceptions about S&W's Lifetime Service Repair Policy (which is different than the actual 1 year warranty), may be able to use my information as a data point in making their decision.

My experience probably won't stop me from purchasing another S&W, but I'll definitely have a different view of the value I'm getting for the $$.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

I had a similar issue one with a 200.00 fishing reel, so I went over the head of customer service and sent a letter to the parent company. Not long after that, my new reel showed up.

The point is, try going over the heads of S&W.

What concerns me most, if I read the OP correctly, it is possible to wear out a gun from a single standard pressure round? What's up with that statement? Are they saying if the gun wears out in 1 round, tough luck?

Obviously you need to be cool headed, but get to somebody that cares. They have a lot of issues there. sales are off by 25%, and profit is down by 75%.

No gun should wear out under the conditions you stated..

Maybe i will put the thought of a 617 on hold

__________________
Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

I'm the OP. Just to make sure I'm being as clear and fair to S&W as possible, the Customer Service supervisor told me they evaluate two criteria for defects in material and workmanship.

#1 - Is there a metallurgical issue with your specific pistol.

#2 - Are there other pistols in the same manufacturing lot as yours that have the exact same failure as yours.

If the answer to both of those questions is no, then he said it's considered normal wear and tear and not covered by the lifetime service repair policy, whether the pistol has been fired one time or 100,000 times.

To me that doesn't seem to account for normal variations in manufacturing processes.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Sounds like CS was looking for a way to deny your claim, kind of like an insurance company. Like others this does run contrary to my experience with S&W so I’d keep trying. Pls let us know how it goes.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

What is a yoke bolt??????

Just read that S&W's sales (profits) are way down, as the industry as a whole.
What the OP experienced may be the company tightening up and holding warranty work to "the letter of the law" or whatever their warranty equivalent is.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

IMHO, SPENDING MONEY TO TIGHTEN UP QC ON PRODUCTS BEFORE THEY LEAVE THE FACTORY, WOULD BE MUCH MORE COST EFFICIENT THAN SENDING OUT SHODDY PRODUCTS........

THOSE GUNS, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CULLED OUT AND MADE RIGHT, WILL BE RETURNED TO CORRECT THOSE SAME PROBLEMS, WITH S&W PAYING FOR SHIPPING BOTH WAYS. SOMETIMES GUNS HAVE TO BE RETURNED MORE THAN ONCE, TO GET THE PROBLEM FINALLY CORRECTED.

THIS DOES NOT INSPIRE CONFIDENCE IN THE BRAND, AND NEGATIVELY AFFECTS THEIR BOTTOM LINE......

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I have to date sent in 2 semi auto pistols and one revolver back to S&W. one for repair and the other two for non warranty work and although I can't speak for others experience I can only say with what I experienced.

All my contact with S&W over the phone they have been very polite & informative. They even returned my phone calls on multiple occasions.

The last pistol I sent in, a model 10 from 1985, they refinished it inside & out to like brand new condition. Even threw on a new set of wood grips at no extra charge.

I will add, with a couple emails I got them to send me, free of charge not one but 2 brand new RSA for my M&P 9mm and a set of replacement rubber grips for my 617.

I'm not saying that I'm not buying the OP's story, all I'm saying is that everytime I had any dealings with S&W, they were very polite & professional... just sayin'.

It sounds to me like they don't want to cover it because this is "normal wear and tear" and that there is no minimum number of rounds to wear out those parts. I don't know why they didn't just tell you that, but that's my interpretation.

Even when a product says "lifetime warranty" I take it as a given that if I want it fixed at the factory, I need to spot the defect sooner than later. If I had a gun that worked fine for four years and then a part wears out, I'd consider it my responsibility to get it fixed.

Those are fair points.

My counter was/is how does a pistol that’s rated for continuous +P operation become non-repairably worn out from firing only 2,000 rounds of std pressure ammo if there isn’t a manufacturing defect? If it had 10,000 or 20,000 rounds through it, then I’d say sure, worn out. I have a reliably functioning LCP with more rounds through it than that revolver.

To your second point, the non-repairable part broke and makes the pistol inoperable. They consider the breakage to be due to “normal wear and tear” and not a “defect in material or workmanship.” They aren’t asking me to purchase a replacement part to fix the pistol. They want me to purchase a replacement pistol for retail price. In terms of timeframes, when a major vendor has a repair policy where they say they will repair or replace any parts due to defects in material or workmanship at no cost for the lifetime of the original owner, my assumption is the timeframe the phrase “lifetime of the original owner” refers to is from the moment I purchase the pistol until I either sell the pistol or die, not just four years.

Maybe those things are unrealistic expectations?

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Yeah, it's a tough call. The part did work for four years so it's going to be hard to call it a manufacturing defect, then again, you only have 2,000 rounds through a pistol that should last much longer. If it were me, I'd call Judge Judy...

If you go back to my OP, that had been my experience too, until now. Even in this case they were very polite.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

It really is sad to see what has become of Smith & Wesson. One a great manufacturer of fine American firearms, reduced to a mediocre manufacturer of subpar American firearms.

I'd hate to say it, but based on what I've read of S&W over the past year, I'm no longer interested in purchasing any of their newly manufactured firearms and will seek alternatives elsewhere.

I used to really want to own some of their iconic Revolvers like the Model 25 and 29, but now I'd rather just get a Ruger Redhawk.

The last new car I bought came with a dealer lifetime power train warranty. But the terms and conditions are so onerous it's virtually impossible any owner could collect on that warranty. Maybe S&W pulls the same tricks.

I've never purchased Armscor ammo, but it may not be SAAMI certified. The warranty will likely void if you admit to using reloads, reman, or non-SAAMI spec ammo.

From the manual I found online:

Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI). If you are uncertain, contact your ammunition supplier for verification.

This is BS. 4 years and 2000 rounds is not a “lifetime warranty”. And the armscore ammo was their way out of paying you. I wouldn’t have told them about that. Who can remember every round fired from 4 years ago? Ammo fired? Factory target loads only, sir! And I just checked Armscor’s website. It says the ammo is made in the USA plant and meets SAAMI specs. And just when is 500 rounds a year to kill a gun “normal wear and tear”? Guess my 60 year old Combat Masterpiece is gonna break any time now.

Send a letter (certified mail), to the president, and make it signature on delivery. Tell them you are dissatisfied with the outcome and will never purchase another S&W product again. Might get a different result.

A friend of mine inherited his father’s Ruger Security Six when his dad died. Bought new around 1975. 30,000 rounds of .357 Magnum, at least. I doubt any .38 since his dad reloaded his own ammo and never shot .38. That was the first .357 I ever fired. 30 year old gun when he got it and it was a bit loose. Ruger said send it in. They paid for shipping both ways and brought the gun back to new. Even reblued it. Total cost was zero dollars and he had it back in like 3 weeks. They no longer service the Six series guns but I have read posts on other forums where those who sent in a Six were offered another revolver at a deep discount. One guy got a GP100 for like $400.

It's a "service policy." The "warranty" is for one year . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Whatever they call it. They sell you a gun and promise to take care of any defects in worksmanahip or breakage of parts outside “normal wear and tear”. Aside from that being intentionally vague, 2000 rounds of range ammo and 100 rounds of +P in a gun that specifically says +P on the barrel, is not “normal wear and tear”.

I think if he pushes the issue he’ll get some satisfaction. Go over their heads. If they don’t make it right, if make it a point to tell them you’ll never buy another of their products and you’ll make it a point to tell others not to, as well.

Actually technically S&W offers a Limited warranty to the original owner for 1 year after purchase. After that then S&W's lifetime service policy begins. Eligibility for this Lifetime Service Policy requires returning the Product Registration Card within 30 days of purchase. The Lifetime Service Policy covers functional defects, it doesn't include the firearm’s finish, grips, magazines or sights. All liability is excluded in the event that the instructions in the Smith & Wesson manual are not observed.

Hmmm. I never fill out those cards, and they helped me with my 627....which is beyond the Limited Warranty period as it is at least 1-1/2 to 2 years old.

I just checked the SAAMI site and Armscor is listed as a supporting member. So that tells me that Armscor sells SAAMI compliant ammunition. And off the Armscor website, I found the following statement: "ARMSCOR, an ISO 9001 Certified Company, complies with the SAAMI, CIP and other military or customer desired standards or requirements."

To me, it sounds like that rep on the phone was feeding you a line of poo and trying to get S&W off the hook for fixing their worthless revolver. I would escalate this into court if needed. It's not like you told them you fed it reloads or something else that dopesn't meet their ammunition criteria.

As much as I hate to suggest this, I firmly believe that Smith and Wesson are attempting to live on it’s past reputation; one of producing a top-quality revolver at a fair price.
Even though S&W still has a lock on the civilian market for revolvers. It appears that they don’t understand they are facing a shrinking market for their products, and one that may well continue to shrink over the years. Smith and Wesson have also forgotten the importance of Positive Word of Mouth advertising.
If I were in the market for a NEW handgun, a S&W product would not be my first choice.

__________________
Always Stay Strong!

I just sent in a revolver with an outta spec.b/c gap 3 weeks ago. It's getting sent back fixed already. The tech guy over the phone heard what I had to say, took my word for everything I mentioned and promptly sent me a dispatch ticket(fedex).

Hard to believe this is the same company. Hard to believe.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I suggest that if the hole in the recoil shield is elongated that the revolver shipped that way & it is indeed a manufacturing defect. How could it possibly be worn oval?
This needs to get escalated.

__________________
NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Just as an update. From the suggestions here, I sent a very polite e-mail to the S&W CEO explaining the issue and expressing my disappointment in both the pistol performance and the service experience.

I don’t expect he reads his own e-mail, but the admin that manages his email will send it to the appropriate Director level guy.

Stay tuned.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

A handwritten letter is much more effective. Like 15 years ago, I took my car to a Pep Boys to fix the AC. Three times back and forth. Even supplied them with the factory parts. Yeah, I should have just brought it to the dealer but it was an old car. $400 later and still not fixed. Even worse, it was making a screaming noise.

I wrote a detailed letter to the president of the company and sent it to the headquarters registered mail. Didn’t expect anything to happen. Three days after I mailed it, I got a call from corporate. President read the letter and they were calling to let me know that the spoke to the manager of the branch I had the work done and if I would go in with my credit card they would credit me back for the full amount.

2000 rounds of range ammo is barely breaking it in. The gun should be replaced. New 642’s are like $350 at the dealer. It’s not a small amount of money. Certainly not enough to risk losing a customer or multiple customers for life over.

I agree. While email should be as effective as snail mail, in reality, it just doesn't seem to be the case. In this situation, I'd give the email a couple of days and if there's no response, I'd follow up with a hand written letter. Always be calm and courteous when writing this kind of communication, sticking to facts and pointing out your previous loyalty to the brand. I'd consider doing a CC to the local BBB too.

__________________
So many S&W's, so few funds!!

I specifically remember mentioning I was considering a complaint to the better business bureau.

I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly. The very nature of this weapon is to protect the owner when the whole world... or at least the real estate he / she occupies at that moment... has gone to *****. It is a last ditch gun that we can & do stake our very life on. We expect it to do it's job.
Guns made before 1900 will do so... with just a bit of periodic cleaning & a drop or 2 of oil. I should expect no less from a gun made in the modern era.
There is no reason for a gun company to exist that does not understand this.

__________________
NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Very disappointing; not that I would buy a new S&W revolver anyways. Never thought the day would come where I would buy a new Ruger revolver over a new S&W.

__________________
K & N S&W revolvers

I think that like most things, it depends on who's desk it ends up on. A polite letter to the CEO is no panacea, but it often works as well as anything to create a change of heart.

Time isn't on the OP's side. Forget the round count and +P versus standard pressure breakdown (which to S&W's ears is irrelevant since they have no way to verify or refute OP's claims). It is still a 4 year old revolver...and S&W knows that for sure. As mileage + age increases, the likelihood they'll fix it for free...decreases. Buy a brand spanking new wheelgun and stash it away for 5 years before firing it. If it breaks after only three cylinders full...you have very little ground to stand on...despite a low round count. I learned about dealing with S&W's CS when my firing pin busted on my three year old 627 PC. I was worried that they would force me to ship it to them and then charge me for repairs. They cheerfully mailed me a replacement pin, no questions asked. That's why I find the OP's tale a little surprising. That doesn't sound like the way any customer service rep at ANY company treats customers. Is there more to the story? I'm surprised at how quickly others here jump to conclusions and vow never to buy a new S&W because of alleged lousy service. Aren't there plenty of satisfied customers posting stories elsewhere on this forum? I've read quite a few positive reviews, so I don't think we should judge S&W's CS too hastily.

Just a thought: Does it make sense to provide the same warranty for alloy framed revolvers as steel? As Kernel Crittenden mentioned yesterday, alloy framed revolvers are a different animal. Personally, I believe it was an engineering mistake for S&W to manufacture alloy guns to essentially the same dimensions and contours of the steel counterparts. They had to be significantly weaker and more prone to wear over the long haul. They should have beefed up the design and/or used steel inserts on contact points where appropriate.

Why they didn't? My guess is that S&W assumed most buyers of small alloy framed revolvers would not shoot them all that much, so it would not be a big problem. Basically, the aluminum frame guns were given the same warranties as the steel guns while hoping they would sit in sock drawers.

My brief S&W warranty experience with similar, but different, circumstances.

My 442-1 was ~5 months old in December 2015 @ ~1500 rounds when some internal pin broke (unknown which one, whether hammer or trigger). After ~2 months, (realize this is the holiday period with personnel off and probably a factory shutdown) S&W replaced the entire firearm as, apparently, S&W doesn't have a method of replacing just one pin in these models.

S&W even reimbursed the dealer fees as, since I was in California at the time, the new gun had to back through an FFL with the forms & fees (& 10 day wait prior to bring the gun home).

Whether the OP's situation is different due to time between warranty claim and purchase or if S&W is becoming stricter with claims is unknown.

My listed 642-1 was bought in the year 2000 and has had zero problems with an unknown round count, but over 3400 rounds (I didn't always keep a round-count log on all my firearms).

__________________
66/642/640/627/586/60/638/686

Though, I sympathize with the gent and his model 642. I purchased a Smith & Wesson Model 48 Classic from the Fort Bliss PX back on Sept 3 2016 for $570.00. The pistol was “New”, but I looked at this pistol on and off for over two years prior and watched it develop a turn line on the cylinder as one clerk or customer dry fired it during that time. I knew it would need a new firing pin when I purchased it and called S&W Customer Service once Labor Day was over with. I clearly explained the situation to S&W and was told with a chuckle that’s its “no problem and we will get it right”. Three weeks later I got the pistol back with the repair invoice that the firing pin, main spring and CYLINDER were replaced. Pistol looks great and shoots even better. I’m a happy S&W Customer.

This is extremely disappointing to hear. I look forward to updates regarding any subsequent action.

I wish you the best of luck with this, Ziggy. It's certainly got my attention.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Just a couple of points:

1. The pin that locks the cylinder into the frame is the "Center Pin"
2. The other locking point on the J frame is under the front of the barrel, the spring loaded pin is the "Locking Bolt"
3. If the Locking Bolt is not properly fitted it offers no real support for the extractor rod/cylinder. This makes the Center Pin the actual and sole locking point for the cylinder. One thing to check on any S&W revolver is to look at the front of the Yoke while in lockup, hold the frame with one hand and try to move the cylinder laterally with the other. If there is more than just the slightest play, the Lock Bolt may not be doing its job or there is already some elongating of the Center Pin Hole in the frame. If the Locking Bolt is not offering proper support, the Cylinder Pin is taking all the pressure and wear and tear. This will probably lead to accelerated wearing of the Hole in the frame.

I think many folks don't appreciate the true roll of the Locking Bolt and importance of its proper fitment . FWIW

__________________
1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

Just out of curiosity. But how did the hammer pin break?

I'm not saying this is the case, but I can see the pin breaking when attempting to swap out the rebound spring.

Not sure how it broke other than shooting the pistol. I had it at the range and the action started acting odd. I thought it had gotten gummed up. I popped the side plate to clean it and the pin was broken.

What I think in odd is it's not the hammer pin they were complaining about. It was the yoke bolt/bolt hole elongation thing they found when they inspected the pistol that they said pushed it over the edge and made the pistol irreparable.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.