Future Governor updates to compete with Raging Judge

[rabrettrager]

I am looking to see if anyone heard of S&W was looking to update the Governor, specifically to see if it would be competitive with the RAGING JUDGE M513 REVOLVER and I'm hoping it has a lower barrel like the CHIAPPA RHINO 6" 60DS REVOLVER. I would like to see all production revolvers take on this lower barrel look to decrease mussel flip. If anyone heard anything let me know.

[Rpg]

I doubt Smith will add a new governor to match the Taurus you like. I doubt there’s sufficient demand.

Without regard to the merits of the barrel placement on Chiappas’ Rhino, I think it very unlikely that Smith will adopt that design.

The demand for the Chiappa has been underwhelming: not the sort of thing that would motivate Smith to invest in redesign, tooling and marketing a new revolver.

Chiappas’ patents would also get in the way.

[Wee Hooker]

...forgive him, he knows not what he says....

[Echo40]

While I would love to see Smith & Wesson attempt to compete with the Taurus Raging Judge with an X-Frame variant of the Governor chambered in .460 S&W Magnum/.410 Bore, the fact that they haven't already done so, nor has there ever been anything to suggest that they have even considered doing so makes it seem extremely unlikely that they ever will.

Frankly, the Taurus Raging Judge isn't a particularly popular model of the Judge due to its massive size/weight and relatively high cost, ergo it wouldn't be a promising venture for Smith & Wesson to develop a variant of their own.

Besides, the issue with having a Revolver chambered both in a powerful cartridge like .454 Casull with an elongated cylinder to accommodate .410 Bore shotshells is the disparity between the power of the two cartridges. Chambering a firearm in both .45 Long Colt and .410 Bore makes sense because both cartridges have similar operating pressures, (.45LC = 14,000psi / .410 Bore = 13,600psi) ergo just about any firearm chambered in .45LC is already built to withstand the pressures of .410 Bore and the only change required is to lengthen the frame/cylinder enough to accommodate the longer .410 Bore. It adds a bit of weight to the package, but in exchange adds a lot of versatility, so it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
However, .454 Casull runs at significantly higher chamber pressures than .45LC/.410 Bore (65,000psi) and therefore requires a much beefier firearm, ergo lengthening the frame/cylinder now adds a lot of mass/weight to the overall package in exchange for the ability to chamber the significantly weaker .410 Bore.

So you see, a firearm like the Judge or Governor which can fire both .45LC and .410 Bore can be used in a variety of applications (Home Defense, Vehicle Defense, Wilderness Carry, etc) because neither the .45LC nor the .410 Bore are high pressure cartridges and can therefore be produced in a relatively lightweight package. However, a firearm chambered in a more powerful cartridge like the .454 Casull or .460 S&W Magnum as well as .410 Bore is extremely heavy, thus limiting the applications in which it can practically be used.

On paper, a firearm which can chamber both a powerful handgun cartridge like .454 Casull and a shotshell like .410 Bore sounds like the ideal Wilderness Carry firearm for defense against just about anything one could reasonably expect to encounter. But in practice, the massive weight of such a firearm (the Taurus Raging Judge weighs 64oz) makes it extremely uncomfortable to carry, and at that point you're honestly probably better off carrying a 12 Gauge Shotgun instead.

[Muss Muggins]

Unlikely. The Governor is already superior to the Judge, which is offered in about a dozen configurations. It’s a great pistol for it’ purpose. Nothing more needed . . .

[elm_creek_smith]

Several years ago I saw a Taurus Raging Judge ULTRALITE at Academy. It had the size of the Raging Judge with a 3 inch barrel but was NOT chambered for the .454 Casull. It was chambered for the 3 inch .410 and .45 Colt and had SEVEN (7!) chambers! It weighed less than my issued 4 inch S&W Model 686-6.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Loyaljeeper]

I would love to have a Judge with a shortened cylinder that is 45acp and 45 Colt only. It would look like a 325NG. I believe it would sell well.

[F75gunslinger]

I am curious to know how a barrel at the bottom of the gun decreases muzzle flip ? Just the different center of gravity and a change in the way the recoil forces work when fired from a lower barrel than one that is at the top ?

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Unlikely. The Governor is already superior to the Judge, which is offered in about a dozen configurations. It’s a great pistol for it’ purpose. Nothing more needed . . .

Pretty much this. .45 Long Colt is already a powerful round in its own right, designed in 1873 to not only make short work of soldiers, but the horses they rode in on as well, and that was in a black powder load with a soft lead round nose bullet.
Even in standard pressure loads, the .45LC packs a wallop. Buffalo Bore offers a standard pressure load that's safe to shoot in anything including SAA clones that launches a 255gr Gas-checked SWC at 1000FPS which delivers 566Ft-lbs of energy. That's enough to drop just about anything in North America save for the very biggest and baddest beasts with a single, well-placed shot.

So yeah, the Governor (or the Judge) is already an adequate choice for a variety of purposes, and once you step outside of those purposes and need something more, you're best served with a 20/12 Gauge Shotgun or a Magnum Revolver rather than a massive Magnum Revolver that can fire the disproportionately diminutive .410.

Originally Posted by Loyaljeeper

I would love to have a Judge with a shortened cylinder that is 45acp and 45 Colt only. It would look like a 325NG. I believe it would sell well.

Sounds like a Taurus Model 450. Sadly, that firearm was discontinued some years back, but you can still find them in the wild for pretty good prices since Taurus isn't a brand that commands a premium, especially on the used market.

[Wee Hooker]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

I am curious to know how a barrel at the bottom of the gun decreases muzzle flip ? Just the different center of gravity and a change in the way the recoil forces work when fired from a lower barrel than one that is at the top ?

It's all about the axis of the bore in relation to your wrist. Picture if the bore is in direct line with your wrist, the force of recoil tends to push straight back into your wrist ( and arm). If the bore axis is higher( picturing it by an exaggerated 6" may help with the description) the rearward recoil force gets transmitted to torque the gun because it is higher and off center from your wrist . The result is that the gun/muzzle wants to rotate up and back with the same recoil force ( producing more perceived recoil.).
So all else equal, the lower the bore axis of a barrel , the less muzzle flip will be felt.
btw, O/U shotgun shooters have known this forever as they almost always shoot their bottom barrels first.

[Jaymo]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

I am curious to know how a barrel at the bottom of the gun decreases muzzle flip ? Just the different center of gravity and a change in the way the recoil forces work when fired from a lower barrel than one that is at the top ?

A lower bore centerline has less leverage upon the grip frame, when fired.
I haven't had nearly enough coffee to discuss physics, but those are the Cliff Notes.

As cool as the lower barrel is, it requires a more complicated action and thus, higher price tag.
Plus, they're funny looking.

Less muzzle flip is nice, but there are no free lunches.
The decreased muzzle flip results in more of the recoil energy being directed straight into your hand and wrist.
Depending on the gun and chambering, this may not be such a great thing.
In a lightweight .38 or .44 Special, I wouldn't like it.
In a magnum revolver, I wouldn't like it, especially if you shoot actual magnum loads, not the hot Specials that the big ammo companies sell.

For my money, I'll stick with the basic DA revolver design as made by Colt, Charter, Ruger, S&W, etc.

[Gamecock]

I'm waiting for belt fed.

[dr. mordo]

When was the last time Smith offered an innovative revolver design?

[Jaymo]

Originally Posted by dr. mordo

When was the last time Smith offered an innovative revolver design?

The current Bodyguard revolver.

Innovative isn't necessarily better.
Taurus has offered a lot of innovative revolvers since the late 1990s.
Some have been great. Some have been turds.

[ctxcummins]

Originally Posted by Jaymo

The current Bodyguard revolver.

Innovative isn't necessarily better.
Taurus has offered a lot of innovative revolvers since the late 1990s.
Some have been great. Some have been turds.

Didn't Ruger release the LCR before the bodyguard came out?

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by ctxcummins

Didn't Ruger release the LCR before the bodyguard came out?

About seven or eight years before . . .

[H Richard]

I would think that S&W would discontinue the Governor due to lackluster sales.

[bulletslap]

Originally Posted by dr. mordo

When was the last time Smith offered an innovative revolver design?

1896 or 1899 ?

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by dr. mordo

When was the last time Smith offered an innovative revolver design?

The R8?

That being said, Smith & Wesson doesn't really need to innovate because their existing designs are already top notch.

Companies like Chiappa and Taurus innovate out of necessity because they lack the same track record for reliability/quality, so they're essentially following the business model of "you have to spend money to make money" in order to drum up business.

Originally Posted by Jaymo

The current Bodyguard revolver.

Innovative isn't necessarily better.
Taurus has offered a lot of innovative revolvers since the late 1990s.
Some have been great. Some have been turds.

Which ones have been "turds" exactly?

If anything, Taurus Revolvers are consistently pretty good, it's their semiautomatic pistols (excluding the PT92 and PT1911 which are arguably more Beretta/Colt than Taurus) which have been iffy.

Seriously, the worst Taurus Revolver I can think of off the top of my head was the View, which wasn't a bad revolver per se, just gimmicky. Heck, if they'd reintroduce the View chambered in .22WMR, it would actually be a great deep concealment firearm which could easily compete with the NAA mini revolvers.

[Gripgrabber]

I love my gov., I cannot think of a needed change to it. Thanks rpg for not degrading a fine sw revolver in your post! Semper paratus

[Nakanokalronin]

You most likely won't see the barrel on the bottom like the Rhino. I had a Rhino and sold it a few months later after seeing 100% of the "kabooms" in that style of revolver go down into the shooters hand and grenade the entire frame and grip. Every normal revolver kaboom you see goes up and out to the sides. That convinced me to buy the equivalent from S&W in the form of the 325TR.

The Rhino was a very accurate gun, reliable and had a great trigger.It's just not a safe design which is why other companies havn't copied it.