Duke426
Member
I love both the 357 Magnum and the 44 Special but if there were even the most remote possibility I'd encounter a bear I wouldn't want either chambering. If it has to be a handgun I'd go with nothing less than a 44 Magnum.
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LW Bear Protection .357 or .44 special
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Horse91-686
Member
BUG, 240gr hardcast;
Primary, Sierra 300gr jacketed hardcast designed for bruins in .44mag;
Bob
Primary, Sierra 300gr jacketed hardcast designed for bruins in .44mag;
Bob
I like bear threads because I really like bears. They are magnificant animals, and are at the top of the food chain where they are found. In 95 I took an Alaskan Kodiak with a 45/70, he was BIG! Range was 35 yards, I spend time in bear country most every year. I will never intentionally kill another bear, they are just to much of a great animal, no quarrel with anyone who does like to hunt them.
Bear not on the attack will succumb to a well placed shot with most any good high power rifle from 35 Remington on up. However a bear on the attack is another issue entirely.
The only way to stop any bear, a smallish Black or a half ton Brown is with a spinal or brain shot. Both are heavily protected by slabs of muscle and bone. Therefore the operative word is penetration. So you want a solid slug that will penetrate the critical areas. I have played around with the 10mm round and believe in the proper iteration it will do the job, but for a handgun a heavy 44 mag or 45 Colt load is the minimum I would trust. Now remember that you have to place the shot with great precision in an animal that is moving up to 35 MPH directly at you. Not many can do that repeatedly(including me). When I go into bear country (that is MISTER BEAR to me) I carry either a Marlin or Browning 1886 in 45/70 with a Buffalo Bore load that leaves one thinking he has fired off a 600 Nitro. I may substitute a Remington shotgun loaded with slugs (no buckshot here) and I always carry either my Ruger Redhawk with Buffalo Bore 45 Colt loads, or my 44 Mountain gun similarily loaded. Yeah it is a lot of hardware to lug around, but once you have seen a big Brownie close up, and had a chance to check out his equipment afterwards, you will become a believer. Oh yeah, my Shepherd/Ridgeback mix is my early warning system-his name is Ruger, he has yet to fail to smell a bear from a long distance.
Just a word about Polar Bears, they are absolutely the most dangerous bear around, they are used to killing and eating anything they see that moves and might taste good. And they have extra layers of fur and fat to protect their vital areas. They do not retreat from anything or anyone, they may be scared off by gunfire, but maybe not. They do not try to keep out of humans way as they are king of the hill in their environment. Unless you are actively hunting them, stay out of their way.
Bear not on the attack will succumb to a well placed shot with most any good high power rifle from 35 Remington on up. However a bear on the attack is another issue entirely.
The only way to stop any bear, a smallish Black or a half ton Brown is with a spinal or brain shot. Both are heavily protected by slabs of muscle and bone. Therefore the operative word is penetration. So you want a solid slug that will penetrate the critical areas. I have played around with the 10mm round and believe in the proper iteration it will do the job, but for a handgun a heavy 44 mag or 45 Colt load is the minimum I would trust. Now remember that you have to place the shot with great precision in an animal that is moving up to 35 MPH directly at you. Not many can do that repeatedly(including me). When I go into bear country (that is MISTER BEAR to me) I carry either a Marlin or Browning 1886 in 45/70 with a Buffalo Bore load that leaves one thinking he has fired off a 600 Nitro. I may substitute a Remington shotgun loaded with slugs (no buckshot here) and I always carry either my Ruger Redhawk with Buffalo Bore 45 Colt loads, or my 44 Mountain gun similarily loaded. Yeah it is a lot of hardware to lug around, but once you have seen a big Brownie close up, and had a chance to check out his equipment afterwards, you will become a believer. Oh yeah, my Shepherd/Ridgeback mix is my early warning system-his name is Ruger, he has yet to fail to smell a bear from a long distance.
Just a word about Polar Bears, they are absolutely the most dangerous bear around, they are used to killing and eating anything they see that moves and might taste good. And they have extra layers of fur and fat to protect their vital areas. They do not retreat from anything or anyone, they may be scared off by gunfire, but maybe not. They do not try to keep out of humans way as they are king of the hill in their environment. Unless you are actively hunting them, stay out of their way.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
good post from one who "has seen the elephant".
Getting back to the riginal post-he is looking for light-in which case I would suggest the J frame-but to make it effective you must always go out in pairs.
RightWinger
Member
This is my first bear thread, but I must say its interesting. I've never killed a bear, I lived in Montana and have seen several, and at one point came close to shooting one but did not have too. I would say that you do need to carry the largest caliber you're comfortable with, and make well aimed shots. I shot a pit bull at work not too long ago and I had a perfect shot at point blank range (literally like 1 foot away) in its side.....the dog lived for 4 days after that. I shot it with a .40 S&W, but I have seen people shot with .38/.357 and live.....so just make the shots count
Anyone ever heard of a 10MM Magnum?
More important than 357 Mag vs 44 Spl is learning how to avoid trouble in bear country. My daughter has spent years in Bob Marshall Wilderness of Montana, mostly running pack strings, and never carried a gun and never needed one. Nor did her fellow packers and wilderness rangers.
Any time you are being attacked by a bear you have most likely already done at least one thing very wrong. Normal healthy bears attack for specific reasons. Don't give them reason to attack. Yes, there are injured and old bears in poor health that can be exceptions to this, but, they are much less common.
Niklas
Any time you are being attacked by a bear you have most likely already done at least one thing very wrong. Normal healthy bears attack for specific reasons. Don't give them reason to attack. Yes, there are injured and old bears in poor health that can be exceptions to this, but, they are much less common.
Niklas
endgameAK
Member
Where I live, a sidearm is always a good idea in the woods.
When the M396 MountainLite was announced, I ordered one. Sent it to the Smith Performance
Center for an action job and Trijicon night sights. Been my every day carry piece ever since. I've been through a succession of S&W .44's .... a 29 - 6.5", replaced by a 629 - 4", replaced by a 629 Mountain Gun. All of them were annoying (to me) to wear while hunting or cutting firewood, or driving my dog teams, etc. They ended up in the sled bag, on the truck seat or left at home. My 396ML, on the other hand, goes on my belt with my belt/utility knife, and my Leatherman ... and is seldom noticed. 18 ounces empty, and 21 ounces loaded.
Someone here stated that Buffalo Bore's Heavy .44 Special ammo has crimp jumping problems in the 396ML. In my experience, BBore's load - 255 gr. GC HardCast Keith @ 100fps (975 in my barrel) - is the perfect load for my needs. I've been using it continually for 8 years in my 396ML ... with never a crimp jumped. The recoil with the BB load in a 396 is noticeable; the muzzle jump is pronounced. (I should have had it Magnaported years ago.) But I'm used to it, and am fairly skilled with this rig. I used it to kill an 800+ lb. moose that got into my dogteam, several years ago, and stayed, unwilling to get off the trail, trying to kill my dogs. Side to side penetration thru shoulder and lungs. He ceased fighting. I'd feel well equipped to deal with a 200# black bear or any black bear for that matter with my 396ML stoked with the BuffaloBore Heavy .44Spl load.
For those that want a bit more substantial .44Spl, the M329PD, at 26 ounces should suffice.
When the M396 MountainLite was announced, I ordered one. Sent it to the Smith Performance
Center for an action job and Trijicon night sights. Been my every day carry piece ever since. I've been through a succession of S&W .44's .... a 29 - 6.5", replaced by a 629 - 4", replaced by a 629 Mountain Gun. All of them were annoying (to me) to wear while hunting or cutting firewood, or driving my dog teams, etc. They ended up in the sled bag, on the truck seat or left at home. My 396ML, on the other hand, goes on my belt with my belt/utility knife, and my Leatherman ... and is seldom noticed. 18 ounces empty, and 21 ounces loaded.
Someone here stated that Buffalo Bore's Heavy .44 Special ammo has crimp jumping problems in the 396ML. In my experience, BBore's load - 255 gr. GC HardCast Keith @ 100fps (975 in my barrel) - is the perfect load for my needs. I've been using it continually for 8 years in my 396ML ... with never a crimp jumped. The recoil with the BB load in a 396 is noticeable; the muzzle jump is pronounced. (I should have had it Magnaported years ago.) But I'm used to it, and am fairly skilled with this rig. I used it to kill an 800+ lb. moose that got into my dogteam, several years ago, and stayed, unwilling to get off the trail, trying to kill my dogs. Side to side penetration thru shoulder and lungs. He ceased fighting. I'd feel well equipped to deal with a 200# black bear or any black bear for that matter with my 396ML stoked with the BuffaloBore Heavy .44Spl load.
For those that want a bit more substantial .44Spl, the M329PD, at 26 ounces should suffice.
So for BLACK BEAR in California, what would you choose between a 696-1 44Special with Double Tap or Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets?
Or a 1911 10mm with double tap 230gr hard cast bullets?
I also have an snubbie 2.5' model 29, but that's pretty huge for my smaller hands!
Excellent advise.
I spend a lot of time in black bear and brown bear country.
I and the wife when she is with me ALWAYS carry our 44 Mag Mountain Guns.
A 44 Special with the Buffalo Bore 255 Cast or equal, such as a +P 45 Auto Rim, is as light a load as I would want to go.
A friend of mine is a brown, and black bear guide in Alaska.
He carries a S&W 5 shot stainless 44 Special [696 I think??] with his hot 300gr handloads. He has other 44 Mags, but likes the smaller, lighter 44 Special.
So to answer the original question I would MUCH prefer the 44 Special over the 357 Mag.
Just read that thread on "My new 696" which is current. You can carry it with 300 grains @ 1000 fps, according to Brian Pearce. And look at this. A Smith .44 Special on a L-frame, which has a K-frame grip size.
and this...see the hook that fits over your belt or waist-band..
and this is what it looks like when you have it on your belt, although I've reversed the image. I've used these for 30 yrs on many revolvers. Never slipped. Easily drawn...and can you say $30?
Sonnytoo
and this...see the hook that fits over your belt or waist-band..
and this is what it looks like when you have it on your belt, although I've reversed the image. I've used these for 30 yrs on many revolvers. Never slipped. Easily drawn...and can you say $30?
Sonnytoo
A couple things here - if you are in the bear's territory he/she will determine if you warrant an arce kicking or not and the only thing you need to do is be there. If you see the bear at long range and act foolishly, then you deserve what you get. Your daughter sounds like a good outdoors gal, who hasn't run into a problem she couldn't handle. Hope it stays that way for her but the longer she's at that line of work her chances increase a little of having a male moose in the rut checking out members of her pack string and that will get interesting to say the least. Griz, not likely, but there's always an outside chance of a bad encounter but it's her choice not to carry and the odds greatly favor her as not needing a firearm while in the Great Outdoors.
As to the original posters question - either caliber will do the job with a well placed hard cast bullet. You can try to break him down or go for the CNS shot but hitting that nose square on will take some skill and a big dose of Lady Luck.
balldboy
Member
I find it ironic that folks go looking for East Coast bear with a minimum of a 30-30 and many can justify a 300 WSM, yet when said bruin stumbles upon us, we'd like to consider ourselves prepared with a big bore cowboy load or a 70 & 80's era detective revolver.
When last in Maine, 3 of us hiked around Millinocket with a Marlin 30-30, a Marlin 1984 in 41mag and the oldest most experienced fellow carried an H&R Topper cut to 22"s with a pipe cutter that had the pistol grip filed/sanded off and refinished with tung oil.
Grandpa had shot a bear or 2 up close with his rig so we kept the snickering to a minimum.
Pete
When last in Maine, 3 of us hiked around Millinocket with a Marlin 30-30, a Marlin 1984 in 41mag and the oldest most experienced fellow carried an H&R Topper cut to 22"s with a pipe cutter that had the pistol grip filed/sanded off and refinished with tung oil.
Grandpa had shot a bear or 2 up close with his rig so we kept the snickering to a minimum.
Pete
n121br
Member
I have 2 S&W .500 mags in 4 inch and several S&W .44 mags with short barrels. I believe in carrying the biggest gun you have so it's the 500. In single action, it's very accurate and easy to hit your target with a well placed shot. Everything changes when being charged by a big animal so it may take several single action shots, but try to make the first one count.
arizonaguide
Member
12ga is my minimum. Prefer a .300+ rifle.
Whatever you decide, use HARDCAST BULLETS.
DO NOT think to use hollowpoints on Bears...likely you will get ONE, maybe TWO shots off if the animal charges from close range.
Pepper spray is a good alternative (maybe even better) for short range charges, but same as a pistol..you must practice with it to get the idea of range/spray pattern and wind effects.
Whatever you decide, use HARDCAST BULLETS.
DO NOT think to use hollowpoints on Bears...likely you will get ONE, maybe TWO shots off if the animal charges from close range.
Pepper spray is a good alternative (maybe even better) for short range charges, but same as a pistol..you must practice with it to get the idea of range/spray pattern and wind effects.
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Samuel Adams
US Veteran
+1 on the 12ga. I spent a few weeks in Alaska courtesy of the Air Force. The locals I talked with recommended the shotgun loaded with slugs when hiking or fishing. I also talked to one of the AF cops at Elmendorf that dropped a charging grizzly with the last round from his .303.
senecaap
Member
Bears are heavy knit animals, go with the 44 with hard cast bullets, you need all the penetration you can get. With Black Bears there is a soft spot around the ear that will drop them like a rock, if you can shoot a pistol well enough to hit it. With brown bears...I don't know, shoot them in the foot and hope you can out run them.
Marshal Tom
Member
As usual, the posts go off track to cover any scenario that might ever occur. He was talking about black bear which is a whole lot different than Grizzly or Brown Bear. I do not agree with a small light .357 revolver for that purpose but I do think that a heavily loaded .357 in something like a Mtn Gun or a 3" 686 CS-1 for instance would suffice. I have lived in western Colorado since 1980 and have been hiking and camping in Black Bear country for all of that time. I have not ever run into a bear in the woods, only in town where I was the Chief of police for 11 plus years and have felt very comfortable carrying a .357 in the woods although I own and carry .44 specials, and .44 Magnum model 29's. Buffalo Bore makes a heavy .357 that should do the trick very well depending on shot placement as stated by several of the posters. The BB loading is a 180gr. LFN-GS advertised at 1400 FPS and 783 Ft. Lbs of energy. They say that it will do 1302 from a 4" .357 Mtn Gun.
Tom
Tom
Yeah, I camp and hike sometimes in CA black bear country and would like a gun that's small enough for a ccw gun, yet enough to discourage a black bear. I'm at the point of deciding on my L-frame 696-1 44 special or an N-frame snubbie 29. The 696 is best for my needs, especially with the heavy cast loads from Double Tap or Buffalo Bore...but I still get a lot of folks tell me I'm crazy and to carry at least a 44mag (which is much heavier and harder to conceal). When I post question, it always ends up in a discussion of Grizzlies or Brown bears and not Black.
senecaap
Member
I think this, the initial post, is where the Grizzlies ran into the thread.
Larry from Bend
Member
I'd choose the .44 Special with hardcasts but years ago I became acquainted with an individual whose job it was to reduce the population of Blacks on the private land of a large, tree-growing company in Washington state. Although he preferred the larger bore diameter of the .44 over the .357, he felt that jacketed hollow points in the .44 (mag.) were better than hardcasts (enough penetration and quicker kills). These bear were snared and then dispatched. He was quick to point out that he'd prefer hardcasts if Griz were present. I should also mention that one of the most experienced old-timers with MT Fish and Game (whose job was trapping and moving problem Griz) felt that the .357 (an old model 27) was better than a .44 Mag 'cause "You could get off more shots more quickly".
I always get a kick out of the "You don't need no gun - just watch out fer them bears" comments. I have a nephew who used to rib me about packing my 629 Classic (285 grain hardcasts) into the Bob Marshall on our bow-hunting pack trips. One night 2 Griz sauntered thru our camp and ran off all the horses which were in an electric-fenced enclosure. We were out most of the rest of the night gathering them before they headed back to the trail-head, 18 miles away. I was the only one that was armed and my "You don't need no gun in The Bob" nephew wouldn't let me get more than 2 feet away from him all night.
PS Once in NE Oregon a smallish Black decided to raid the cook tent late one night and I only had a .357 with me (a 4" 66 with 158 grain jacketed). I ran the Black off (long story) but that .357 sure felt like a popgun rather than a bear stopper. It's the .44 Mag for me.
