I love Smith and Wesson Revolvers like the 686 and 629. I like to grip my pistols(Like my Glocks) with piggy back high thumbs grip as most professionals teach. My problem is using this grip on my Revolvers. The cylinder release button bangs/cuts the hell out of my right thumb durring recoil. I can't seem to posision my thumb so it will not get cut up under recoil. Here is a picture of how I grip therevolver(my 629 44 mag):
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...0/100_2061.jpg



If I cross my thumbs my thumbs it just does not feel right but my right thumb does not get cut up. Several world class instructors advised me to never cross my thumbs. One instructor from Blackwater told me to take a dremel to the cylinder release button and smooth it over. I don't want to do that to my revolvers as some are old and worth a lot. Here is a picture of my crossed thumbs:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...0/100_2062.jpg



So how can I fix this problem?????? Thanks for any input and advice.

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Tag

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Hi, welcome to the forum..I hope we can feed to your revolver addiction....

I shoot my revolvers like the first picture.
I do not have a problem with the cylinder release banging up my thumb. I also use a good set of grips tht helps with that problem....
The most important thing to remember is not to extend your fingers infront of the cylinder or you will be missing one or really really mame it...
I suggest you find a set of good wooden or rubber grips to help with your grip.

Listen those Blackwater guys are great instructors I have been to Black water on several occasions....BUT they dont know JACK about revolver shooting..If you want to learn about revolver shooting try to go to a police department of Sheriff's office near you and find the OLDEST shooting instructor you can find...The older guys know all about carrying andf shooting revolvers...

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M.J.Hanna

Skag,
I don't have an answer to your problem. But, I do feel your pain ....literally! I have the same problem when I shoot my 642. I don't recall having this problem with my others though.

Simple answer - hold it so it doesn't hurt!
I have rather large hands (not monstous but long fingers, etc). I use Pachmayr's Decelerators - they help to keep my hands in the right place and also cushion the recoil.

Each of us has different shaped hands - we ALL must learn to work with OUR hands. If you have small hands, then a grip that exposes the back strap is very helpful. Me, I need the back strap covered. Due to a physical problem I cannot use ANY wood grip on a "big boomer" (and with me, big starts with .38 +P - pitiful, but that is the way it is) so I use Pachmayr's and the problem is solved (for me).

If you need to modify the cylinder release button and don't want to bother the one on your revolver, just remove (and save) the original and get a replacement. THEN, you can modify it to your heart's content. They are not terribly expensive and you can get an original style from Brownells or a competition one from Dillon.

FWIW
Dale53

The problem with the first grip is exactly what you have touched on - it may bring your support thumb dangerously close to the cylinder gap. The first pic is actually a good grip for semi-autos, and is referred to as a "thumbs-forward" grip.

One of the things that has been pointed out out to the OP on another forum (same post) was that he isn't gripping the revolver as high as he can. By shifting the grip up, the strong hand thumb will naturally have more of a downward incline to it and thus be easier to keep away from the cylinder latch. Note that this would be somewhat of a grip rotation, and isn't just translating the grip straight up. Bring the top part of the hand higher on the backstrap, while the front part remains against the trigger guard or grips as it stands now - which is of course as high as it can go anyway.

I myself will go listen to Jerry Miculek for modern revolver handling.

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek2.html

(One possible problem with going to certain older shooters for tips is that they may still insist on older practices such as "cupping" with the support hand instead of wrapping it around. Such practices, when compared to contemporary techniques, offer inferior recoil control and less stability.)


FWIW, to me, holding a revolver with a semi-auto-like thumbs-forward grip is incredibly awkward and unnatural-feeling. Instead, locking over my strong thumb with my weak thumb feels much better. And of course this is entirely opposite when shooting my autos.

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Skag:

great photos.....I do not use the 1st style as it would cut my thumb too.

I also do not use quite what yous 2nd photo shows.

Most of my own range work is with single action revolvers, with some S&W DAs thrown in.

I believe auto pistol grip rules are different than what is needed for the revolver style.

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I fold my thumbs on top of each other, even when shooting a semi-auto. Just to have a consistent grip regardless of gun type.

One of the reasons I fold thumbs with a revolver is that otherwise my trigger finger would touch the thumb when pulling the trigger.

Another reason is that for defensive shooting a strong grip is recommended. Extending the thumbs forward seems to weaken the grip. See for example Massad Ayoob's Combat Handgunnery 6th Edition.

The warning about the barrel cylinder gap is relevant. I managed to draw blood from the tip of my thumb when practicing top speed draws from a holster. On one of the draws my support hand did not find its proper place and the thumb was left extended too far forward and got blasted by the escaping gas. I slowed down after that.

My grip is similar to the 2nd pic. I'm a right handed shooter and I shoot all handguns the same way, I always get a good firm grip with my shooting hand first then use my left hand to compliment my right, to help support the one handed grip.

The grip in the first pic feels weak to me, I have to compromise my strong right hand grip to accomodate fitting my left hand/thumb as you are illustrating.

I feel that you should always be ready and able to shoot one handed first, the grip in the first pic does not lend itself to one handed shooting. Take away the left hand and you have a very weak grip on the gun, that translates in to poor accuracy, poor recoil control, slow follow up shots, and a greater potential for malfunctions if shooting a semi-auto.

+1 on sasu and WC145. For defensive shooting, the strongest possible grip makes sense to me - first and foremost, for retention purposes, and as WC145 says it aids accuracy, recoil control and follow up shots. Also a very valid point about consistency in your grip - one handed, off handed, 2 handed, revolver, autoloader - you shouldn't need a different grip for each (KISS).

It sounds like you started shooting this way and so it feels natural to you now. I started with thumbs curled in and have experimented with the newer 'thumbs-extended' technique, but don't use it anymore for my 1911s - it just doesn't feel natural to me. When I pickup/draw/handle a gun, it is ingrained in me to grip it the way I always have - just like not putting your finger in the trigger guard. We all tend to revert to our training when the chips are down.

With a heavy caliber like the 44mag your non shooting hand should only be used for support
of the weight.

You can overlap your grip any way that's comfortable but the second hand should
not be putting any pressure on the firearm itself.

Jerry Miculek teaches just the opposite on his DVD. He says to make as much contact between your support hand and the gun as possible. The more your hands cradle the gun, the better you control the gun, especially in recoil.

After seeing that advice a couple of weeks ago I have tried to press the palm of the support hand against the grip of the gun. It is too early to tell if that helps, but it sure feels good.

There is actually a very simple solution to your problem. I do a lot of shooting with Sig Sauer Semi's and the example shown in your first picture will cause a failure of the slide locking back on empty with a Sig. So, I had to learn to adapt my grip to keep my strong hand thumb away from the slide release. I also use the exact same grip on my revolvers and I've never been cut by the cylinder latch.

Take your existing grip and move your strong hand thumb to the outside of the back of the first knuckle of the thumb on your support hand. It will take a bit of time to break that old "thumb in" habit but it can be done with practice. In addition I find that it helps me to get a bit higher grip with my strong hand because "coming over the top" with the strong hand feels more natural.

BTW, when I first has slide lock issues with my semi's, I tried using a trapped thumb grip similar to your second pic and found it cause me to steer the gun too much with my thumb, which just killed my groupings.

Revolvers and autoloaders have very different frames. Thus having two grips is actually better, despite the "inconsistency" between the different platforms. Trying to force the exact same grip on both will lead to compromise on one platform or the other.

Now, I don't own an N-frame yet, so let's just try this - a 4" K- or L-frame is pretty comparable to a 1911 in terms of overall size. Lay or hold one over the other. See how the grip frames are entirely different profiles? Not even close.

For me, whenever I pick up an auto, I immediately go to a thumbs-forward grip. While for revolvers, I immediately go to a "thumb tucked" grip. Anything else on either platform feels completely unnatural for me.


Then you're doing it wrong (for an autoloader, again). All good firing grips do start from the strong hand alone, about this you are correct. Then bring your weak hand to wrap around both the gun and your strong hand - filling in anywhere on the gun that your strong hand doesn't cover. Get a good strong-handed grasp, with your hand as high into the gun as possible (thus lowering the relative bore line) and your thumb pointed forward. If the gun has a frame-mounted safety, you can rest your strong thumb on top of it. Now take your weak hand and wrap it around. Your fingers should wrap around your strong hand, with the palm covering both your fingertips and the area of the gun not covered by your strong hand. The contour of your weak hand and thumb should be directly following the contour of your strong hand and thumb. The end result is your strong thumb resting in part on your weak hand, with both thumbs pointed forward close to the bore line. You end up pointing your thumbs to point your gun.

Revolvers lack a suitable place to put your strong thumb up high and forward - namely, the "correct" position for a forward-thumb on a revolver is right on the cylinder latch itself (if you are gripping the gun high... grip it low and you can put your thumb forward underneath the latch, but the low grip is going to really hurt recoil control).

Having the thumb high and forward on an auto does allow for a more solid one-handed grip, as it tends to increase the stability achieved between thumb and forefinger. Try this - put your thumb low, and wiggle the gun around (rotationally and side-to-side). Now try it again with your thumb high. I myself do notice more resistance with the thumb high - and more resistance to motion means more stability.

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As was mentioned earlier, you're gripping too low. This shows well in the first picture, not so well in the second. You want the meat of the web of your shooting hand to almost be rolling over the top of the frame knuckle. You will think it'll get pinched between the frame and the hammer during the trigger pull. If you are thinking that then you have gripped it high enough. This will actually provide you more leverage for a consistent trigger pull too.

With a wheelgun I lock down my shooting thumb with my support thumb. I shoot it the same way whether I am shooting right or left handed. With my auto jammers I tend to relax the thumbs and point them forward.

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Good point. I will put that to use.

Want to add some spice to the gripping style mix?
Add arthritis in the hands into it! My D/A style has had to change, as has my grip panel preferences because of it. My D/A thumb position now (strong hand) is nearly up against the recoil shield. With the weak thumb holding it there. The thumbs down and locked are now a thing of the past. BTW, the earlier poster was correct about each hands spans and dimensions being different. No one system will work for all, it's just that some are more consistently better than others.
+2 on getting a spare cylinder release so you can mow yours anyway that works for you!

In both pics you have a WRONG grip. Go to the S&W home page and view Jerry M.'s grip film.
Try crossing your left thumb over your right.

In that first photo you have your thumb dangerously close to the cylinder/forcing cone gap. I say dangerously, because the hot gases that leak out from that gap during discharge can burn your thumb or worse. There are a few pictures floating around the net showing a person who had his thumb amputated by a discharge from a S & W model 460 when gripping the gun as in photo # 1.

I've been shooting handguns for 40 years, my father was a military firearms instructor and taught me to shoot, I've qualified expert with every firearm I've ever had to qualify with, handgun and long gun. I'm no authority and I'm no instructor but I've got plenty of experience and I'm a good shot. I just happened to have a j-frame, a single action percussion revolver, and a 1911 sitting on my counter when I read your post. I went and picked each of them up and gripped them as I would to shoot them, both one and two handed, and I can assure you that I use the same grip with each of them. My hand molds to the grip and the gun(s) point naturally for me.

Because an "expert" says it's so in his book or his video doesn't mean it's the only way, it just means that it's the best way he's found for what he's doing and what works on the competion range doesn't always translate to what work elsewhere.

If I'm on duty and I have to use my primary weapon, a Beretta 8000D, and it fails, when I transition to my back up, a j-frame, I don't need to be switching grips or worrying about my thumb being high or low. I need to get my weapon into action and put rounds on target. I may be shooting one handed or two, left or right, regardless my grip will be the same. That's why my work guns are DAO with no safeties, nothing to think about when going from one to the other. That's also why I use a modified Weaver stance, it's the same stance I fight from, shoot handguns from, and shoot rifles from. Like bubbajoe45 said - KISS.

This grip works for me.

That grip will be brutal with .44 magnum loads, at least for me. I use it with left hand target shooting in PPC style with target loads, but use the thumbs over for right hand. I have small hands, and that grip is painful with magnum loads.

I can't/won't shoot as shown in that first picture. I like my left thumb too much.

As you may notice, I was addressing your assertion that attempting to replicate a thumbs-forward grip resulted in a compromised strong hand grip - which it does not.

I will also continue to disagree on taking KISS to the extent of making everything 100% the same between all different platforms. This results in compromised functionality or ability in one platform or another. I guess the real thing I don't understand is how anybody picks up a revolver and thinks it feels exactly as if they picked up an auto. The frame and stock types are completely different between the two platforms, resulting in completely different feels. I would have to consciously force myself to use any kind of thumbs-forward grip on a revolver because it is so completely unnatural to me - the frame style just doesn't allow it to work. Similarly, I find it unnatural to use a tucked-thumb grip on an auto, as the platform is naturally suited to a thumbs-forward grip - totally different feel there.

My hands naturally go to different grips on different types of weapons both from what subconsciously "feels right" as well as from built-up muscle memory.


Now, I do not use any of my techniques simply because somebody said I should. Will I try out different people's suggestions - especially from experienced and well-reknown shooters? You bet. I will try them out for myself and see what works best. And I - as well as a great multitude of others around the world - have found that a thumbs-forward grip works best for autos and a tucked-thumb grip works best for revolvers. (The basical physical implications behind the construction of these grips also gives them a great deal of credit beyond most "traditional" methods) Hence why I suggest these grips to other shooters. You don't have to use them, but to say that the weak hand in either grip negatively alters the strong-handed grip is utterly false.

Just wondering, have you tried thumbs-forward on an auto for at least one session? Quite frankly, I don't know of anyone who has seriously tried out thumbs-forward and then subsequently abandoned the technique. We've all found it to provide greater stability and increased recoil control over other alternatives.

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I didn't say that revolvers and autos feel the same, I said I use the same grip with both types of weapon. I said that my hand molds to the grip, obviously I have to accommodate the gun, it will not change for me. Regardless, I hold them all the same way.

No offense, but, according to your profile, you're a 22 y/o software engineer involved in live gaming with guns. You've been taught, or learned to shoot, in a manner that best fits the game you're playing. Like I said earlier, what works on the playing field will not necessarily work in real life. I learned to shoot through military and law enforcement training. I carry and shoot lots of different guns, I don't focus on what is different about shooting them but what is similar.

I'm also a martial arts instructor and (former) kickboxer. I knew another instructor who would boast that his style had almost 400 techniques. I boasted that mine had maybe 25 and that once you learned those 25 everything else you could think of was just a variation on a theme. Again, it's the KISS principle at work. That's what makes a good boxer so dangerous. He's got just a handful of weapons in his arsenal but is so well versed and skilled in the use of those weapons for their intent - fighting - that few people can beat him in a street fight.

When things go bad you will default to your training. Suppose you lose the use of your support hand. Try shooting that auto one handed (right AND left) with your "thumbs-forward" grip and let me know how it works out for you. Maybe that will help you understand what I'm talking about.

I practice both strong and weak hand drills at *every* range outing. Again, using a high and forward thumb on autos produces the most stable platform, and the best results. Phsyically speaking, it will always produce a more torsionally rigid platform by speading the extent of your lateral contact over a longer vertical span. Also, on any auto with a frame-mounted safety, such a grip ensures that the safety is off when you are commencing firing.

While I do train for USPSA, I also train for self-defense, and take it very seriously - far moreso than gaming.

Also, I do get tired of people putting down the practical shooting sports because they are "gaming, not training". The basic skills you will either acquire or improve in the practical shooting sports are completely applicable to real-life usage. The thing is to realize what aspects are just part of the game, and which aren't. The actual core gun-handling skills are the same - it's still all about trigger control, sight alignment, and recoil management. Also, while not equivalent to the stress experienced in a real-life shootout, the added competitive aspect of the sports does add an extra element of stress that isn't there for static range shooting and basic training. Feeling the pressure of "the clock" helps you understand how things can go out the window when you thought you had it under control.

To reiterate - the practical shooting sports can help you greatly improve defensive firearms skills, as long as you know what to take from them, and what to leave on the course.


Again, have you experimented with the thumbs-forward technique on autos at the range? If you have, fine - if not, don't go knocking something like this until you've tried it for yourself.

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these videos may help...............http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/s...manhJ0KNWQYqM4

i use the second grip "j frame" when shooting my 686, 6 inch barrel. if i am practicing with my snub nose model 64, i'll only use one hand, weak or strong, and DAO. its the only way to prepare for self defense.

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I believe my grip is what some call "thumbs locked down". I use the same grip for semis and wheels. Would never put a finger closer to the cylinder than I needed to...

My combat arms instructor had us all hold our M9s how we felt comfortable, and only made adjustments to someones grip if it was potentially dangerous or hindering the mechanics of the gun. He didn't try to push what he felt was THE grip.

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Why not purchase another cylinder release and modify it so that it does not bother you, install that one and save the original one in your safe?

Nice link, I always enjoy watching Jerry shoot.

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I find that I use a different grip when shooting autos (thumbs forward), double action (thumbs locked) and sometimes with single action (weak thumb high). The DA and SA really depend on how I'm shooting, and if I need to shoot for speed. I've had to tell my dad to watch his thumbs when he was shooting his Glock because he natually wants to shoot with weak thumb high (he's must have thought he was shooting his Blackhawk). He finally learned proper thumb placement with autos when the slide split the joint of his left thumb.

You will fight the way you train. That's a fact.

There was no "thumbs-forward" grip until somebody found they shot faster that way, IN COMPETITION. Not because it was a better combat grip or more effective in self-defense scenarios where the action is dynamic and ever changing. That's another fact.

Introduce someone trying to take your gun away into your game, so that you have to fight them off with your support hand while retaining your weapon and trying to get rounds off with the other and the "thumbs-forward" grip falls apart, literally. Don't underestimate the importance of weapon retention, it's not just about the kind of holster you use.

Yes, I've tried the "thumbs-forward" technique on autos on the range, along with just about every other technique and shooting style out there (that's what a few decades of experience gets you - lots of trigger time to draw conclusions from), and, like I said before, what's hot in competition or range play doesn't always work elsewhere. The "thumbs-forward" style offers me nothing more in the way of speed, accuracy, or security and having to practice two different styles of shooting because this gun is a revolver and that gun is an auto makes no sense. All that does is add one more thing that can go wrong when the SHTF and I'm down to gross motor skills and having to contend with a huge adrenalin dump, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and everything else that occurs in a gun fight, never mind the bullets coming my way.

"Thumbs-forward" is great for some people for competition and range use, but you need to think outside the range and the game. Like I said, you'll fight the way you train, that's why I train the way I want to fight. There's nothing wrong with playing the game but if you're going to play, do it in a way that will strengthen your off range skills (the ones that really count). If you shoot one way, in both competition and self-defense training, with both revolvers and autos, you will become faster and more accurate with ALL handguns than if you train yourself to switch back and forth between multiple styles/methods dependent on the weapon and venue. The person that practices one style will gain skill and proficiency faster, and retain those skills longer, than the person that puts the same amount of time into training in multiple styles. They will also learn to apply that skill to all scenarios, rather than choosing this method for one situation and that one for another, and so on. Once again, it comes down to the KISS principle. There's really no reason to make anything in life more complicated than it has to be, especially shooting and self-defense. If anything, we'd all be better off by striving to make things as simple and unencumbered as we can.


Here's a link to to a blog article that goes further into what I'm talking about.
http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2...cow-gored.html

I'm that old, fat retired police instructor and I would never teach anybody to hold a revolver the way you do. First and foremost you are just waiting for a careless moment to get a finger far enough forward to get it close enough to the barrel/cylinder gap and get a serious owey!! That doesn't even account for the beating your thumb is taking.

If you think banging your right humb up isn't fun, try blasting that left index or left thumb open or off, predicated on caliber and gas escaping.

Try this: Grasp the revolver with your right hand. Curl your right thimb down till it touches the the first knuckle of your index finger. Your thumb is now out of the way and cannot remotely get whacked by the ejector thumb piece. The other thing you have now done is actually GRASP the revolver. You are a human, one of the things that makes you one is an oposable thumb. Use it to actually grasp the revolver. I've tried holding a Model 19 with Target grips and with finger grooved Combats just like you picture in number one. You are not grasp[ing the revolver at all with any force that could keep the gun from rotating back under recoil. It's no wonder your thumb takes a whacking.

So first just try grasping the gun with your right hand in the correct position. With your thumb curled down it should be resting at the first joint of your index finger and positioned with the tip just in line with the back of the trigger gaurd.

Now stick your left hand out with the palm up. Set the butt of the revolver in the palm of your left hand. Curl your left hand finger up and around your wrist. This will help support your right wrist under recoil. NOw put you left thumb UP to where it is comfortable. Mine ends up with the ball of the left thumb resting against the side of mt right thumb at the first joint. The thumbs are NOT crossed.

I called DP, another old, fat, retired, LEo instructor and revolver shooter. He sayd his left thumb ends up in the open space between the tips of his right fingers and the heel of his right hand where the right hand doesn't close entirely around the grip.

If you bring you right arm up and stick it straight out the sights on a S&W should be at eye level and lined up perfectly.

In a combat stance the left hand is supporting your right wrist and helping with instictive pointing/combat shooting.

You also have a firm grasp on the grip and your hand isn't getting whacked under recoil.

Give it a try with and empty revolver and you should find a firm position that is also comfortable. Acquire the sights and see what works.

Both you grtips seem way more adapted to a semi auto than a revolver.

the best

RWT

Wickahoney,

Definitely +1! That's exactly how I was taught - and still do - grab onto a revolver.

Jerry

If the thumb of the right hand is being cut by the cylinder latch a set of stocks that cant the thumb out a bit can help. Decent stocks can help many minor problems with grip and recoil control. On older guns with the service stocks I routinely felt some bashing of the stocks. The Magna style stocks removed that problem. There are many more options available.

tipoc

Been gone for a while! Thanks for all the good help guys! I assume this all applies to a .357 like the 686 as well?

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