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  #51  
Old 03-06-2024, 07:44 PM
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Three places where Dykem rubbed off:
Upper right leading edge of the hammer to the side plate.
Normal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-03-06_hammer_rub_15-jpgNormal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-03-06_sideplate_10-jpg

Right side top of the hammer block.
Normal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-03-06__hammer_block6-jpg

Hammer nose - mostly right side.
Normal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-03-06_4_hammer_nose-jpg
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File Type: jpg 36-1_2024-03-06_4_Hammer_Nose.jpg (243.7 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg 36-1_2024-03-06__Hammer_block6.jpg (69.4 KB, 112 views)
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  #52  
Old 03-06-2024, 08:28 PM
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The rub mark on the sideplate indicated with an arrow is from the front leg of the bolt.





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  #53  
Old 03-06-2024, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
The rub mark on the sideplate indicated with an arrow is from the front leg of the bolt.

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  #54  
Old 03-07-2024, 12:55 AM
Matt_X Matt_X is offline
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Checked the main spring force on the hammer as shown here.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/141763281-post12.html

It's a little different than Kuhnhausen but makes more sense to me.
Just about 3.5#
I used a coat hanger, milk jug with water, and postal scale.
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  #55  
Old 03-07-2024, 12:48 PM
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That's 56 ounces. With Federal or Winchester primers you would probably be OK. With your ammo (primers), you probably need to be in the 64 to 70 ounce range.
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Last edited by Protocall_Design; 03-07-2024 at 01:05 PM.
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  #56  
Old 03-07-2024, 02:36 PM
Matt_X Matt_X is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protocall_Design View Post
That's 56 ounces. With Federal or Winchester primers you would probably be OK. With your ammo (primers), you probably need to be in the 64 to 70 ounce range.

Of course I had to recheck my measurements after you posted that.
3# 12 oz lifting very slowly the hammer held.
3# 13 oz. and it did not.
So 62 oz.

Right below what you're saying is needed for consistancy with the harder primers. But close enough makes me hopeful that a new factory spring might do the trick.

I didn't check before I took the Precision One to the range with me as an alternative to the Fiocchi. Yep They use CCI primers.
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  #57  
Old 03-07-2024, 02:56 PM
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CCI and Remington are the hardest primers. I don't know how all the foreign primers rate.
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  #58  
Old 03-27-2024, 06:15 PM
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Finally got to do a little testing at the range.
So far, so good double action with

20 rounds Browning 130 gr FMJ
20 rounds Remington 158 gr LRN

Dykem is still on the right side of the hammer (did not get scraped off).

Next test will be the Fiocchi or Precision One with the harder primers.
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Last edited by Matt_X; 03-27-2024 at 09:16 PM.
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  #59  
Old 04-13-2024, 10:11 PM
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and with the Fiocchi 158 gr FMJ the failures to fire returned.
Most of today's shooting was single action as I was checking point of impact vs point of aim for 10, 16, and 25 yards. First 5 DA were fine. But there was a failure to fire on the first hammer hit for a cartridge in each of the 3 cylinders fired double action at the end. Second hit they fired.

Based on the hammer spring check above, it seems the most likely cause and solution will be a factory hammer spring.

Last edited by Matt_X; 04-13-2024 at 10:37 PM.
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  #60  
Old 04-14-2024, 01:19 PM
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I've read through this thread with great interest and am hopeful that a new, full power hammer spring takes care of it. If you PM me your address, I'll send you one.

ETA: grammar improvement

Last edited by Mercury; 04-14-2024 at 01:21 PM.
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  #61  
Old 04-21-2024, 09:03 AM
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Default J-frame hammer springs

Quick update:

Thank you Mercury!

Normal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-04-19_1998cr-springs-jpg
The new black spring is slightly longer. If everything else is the same as the old black spring (and it seems very close), then assuming a modulus of elasticity of 12x10^6, the spring rate of the old black spring is around 13 lb/in, new spring is around 14 lbs/in. That could be the difference between using a good vernier vs. a cheap dial caliper. However the new one's free length is longer, so it will apply more force for any given compression.
The spring rate of the new silver spring calculates to be closer to 17.5 lbs/in. Length is between the old black and the new black.

I bought a good used round stirrup/hammer strut. Installed that with the new black spring. Also took a one little burr off the side plate where it was just scratching the hammer. But that won't effect the weight test.


Testing the result of the spring change using the same method as previously posted, result was only another ounce at best. So its up to 59 oz.

However, the difference between primers firing and not firing has been the difference between single action and double action. The static force as measured doesn't change between SA and DA. So its a good reference point, but doesn't tell the whole story.
Normal Hammer block contact?  Model 36-36-1_2024-04-19_1993-spring-working-length-jpg


Next step will either be to test the installed spring and stirrup with the Fiocchi, or change to the silver spring and measure the hammer force. Depends on whether I go to that range before I get time in the shop.
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Last edited by Matt_X; 04-21-2024 at 09:05 AM.
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  #62  
Old 04-21-2024, 09:18 AM
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Default Fiocchi .38 spl

Annecdotal but perhaps indictive of harder primers.


Two reviews of Fiocchi 130 gr FMJ at Lucky Gunner have failures to fire. Both were using S&W Model 19. Total of about 8 reviews that state or suggest the person had actually used the ammo at time of review.
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  #63  
Old 04-21-2024, 12:46 PM
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The spring wire diameter makes a big difference, too. A couple thou. larger wire diam. will be a lot stronger spring, all else being equal. If all the springs have equal wire gauge, they will be essentially the same.
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  #64  
Old 04-21-2024, 01:07 PM
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You're welcome Matt_X, I'm happy to help.

I included the 2nd silver-colored spring because it felt stiffer and you may end up needing a stronger one.

If it where mine, I wouldn't feel that it was fixed until it had zero failures-to-fire, so range testing is necessary.

Please continue to keep us posted and good luck.
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  #65  
Old 04-21-2024, 02:55 PM
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The bright spring certainly has the highest spring rate and will apply more force through the working range. At some point I will try it just because I'm curious if it will have any noticible impact on the trigger pull.

My measurements for working range of spring are as follows:
Hammer in rebound 1.322"
Hammer at Single Action full cock 0.984"
Hammer fully forward (with no cartridge) 1.347"


The wire of the old hammer spring was 0.033" dia. and the wire of the new black spring is about the same (as mentioned I don't fully trust the dial caliper I have at the house). The wire of bright spring measures .0345 but I think its .035" wire. This because .033 and .035 are standard piano wire diameters.

The other difference of note is the the black springs have 27.5 coils while the bright spring has one less coil. Other differences are minor. For example the ends are cut and ground although the new black spring end is more tapered than the other two.

Last edited by Matt_X; 04-21-2024 at 06:47 PM.
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  #66  
Old 05-12-2024, 06:34 PM
Matt_X Matt_X is offline
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Default Range Test

Summary: Seems to work.


The range still had Fiocchi but now only 130 gr. FMJ.
Primers seem to be the same type.


Cylinder = 5 cartridges
First two cylinders had one failure to fire each.

Each cartrige that failed to fire double action on the first try did fire on the second try double action.
At this junction I was getting ready to try some Precision One brand with CCI primers, but figured 10 rounds is not enough to get a sense of the percentages.

Cylinders 3 and 4 had zero failures to fire. This is interesting.
The next two cylinders were shot offhand double action and were also fine. OK. This seems promising. Lets keep going.
Target out to 17 yards, and the remaining 20 cartridges all went bang on the first pull of the trigger (yes double action).


I took a look a photo of the primers when they all went bang, and one looks like a light strike. Looking through the box of spents shells and there are a few more like this. I think this is a hard primer. Also maybe the hammer nose strikes just enough off center (low) that maybe its even harder to dent that location.

So the bottom line is that now it seems to be working. I think the revolver is just on the edge of setting these primers off consistantly. Will need to put a more Fiocchi through before I'm convinced.
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  #67  
Old 05-12-2024, 07:41 PM
Protocall_Design Protocall_Design is offline
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Looks like a borderline, barely enough hammer strike.
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