I know this will probably offend some people , or even worse destroy their excuse for why, they never attained the level of success shooting PPC that they wanted and others were able to achieve.Im pretty much at the end of my PPC shooting career,gonna take up bullseye ,so I dont really care what some people think. And Mas, yes I know some teams HAVE had financial support, like your recent article in AH said ,but not most, to the extent you would imply.
Ive been shooting PPC for 30 years ,quite a while,the last 20 or so with a fairly successfull team,especially in the 90s LAPD. If I had a dime for every time I heard ,"WELL if my dept gave me everything I would be good too" I could of retired 10 years ago.
Yes, we have a small amount of financial help from our athletic organization,Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club, almost enough to pay our hotel bill an NPSC, but thats it,and always has been.In the early years,every year at tax return time our whole checks would go to buy ammo. Only in the last 10 years or so have we even been allowed to attend NPSC on duty and none of us count on that. We dont ,and have never had a 50 yard line, in the 90s we built a small 2 shooter pit between two hill tops at a wierd angle and really only 49 yrds, to have a place to shoot. I remember once when Clay Tippet saw it he said, "This is really humbling,that this is all you guys have got." And you know what, on weekends you would wait in line to get to shoot there,ask multiple National Champion Stefanie Diaz, So there goes that myth.
I have a score card where Bob Vadaz won the sharpshooter class,so now 10 years or so later he is winning Nationals,ask him how many weekends or late dinners he's had to get in practice. Or Phil Hemphill shooting with a sprinkler on him to be prepared to shoot in the rain. John Pride at the academy at 0430 to get his work out in ,BEFORE work, prior to a Bianchi CUP. There is the real secrets to success. Hell, half the times John showed up for practice, all he got to do was coach the rest of us.
Before I came to LA , I was a cop on a 42 man dept in central Iowa. Guess what, I had my own 10 point 50 yard range ,unlimited dept ammo to shoot and the Chief was so impressed that we wanted a Pistol team the Dept paid for my entry fees and let me go to any matches I wanted ,on duty.Plus I didnt have to drive 45 minutes or pay 300.00 a year to have a place to shoot 50 yards off a barricade stuck into the back of my truck , like now, especially since Im a paid academy professional shooter.So there goes that myth.
All the great shooters I know ,didnt start out that way.They paid their dues (and their money and time off) to become that way. Sure after some success you might be lucky enough to pick up a sponsor,if you have a team member who work his tail of to get it for you ,THANKS Rick, or your agency sees that having a good team has its benefits so they give you some help, but usually it doesnt start out that way.
Concerning the NRA stuff, as far as Im concerned they have turned it into a 6th grade soccer match where everybody getting a trophy or a gun ,whether you won it or were given it by default.One plastic gun still wont buy a case of good ammo,and thats not the secret to getting people to shoot.
The rules committee is off their bonkers ,come on 6" bull barrel distinguished guns,5.7 x whatever ammo ok,give me a break. Ive tried writing letters and such but its just not worth it. We bring new guys to NPSC and they get 60 points taken off for having a little finger ,thats right, finger across the line at 50 yrds,no warning nothing,Gee he really wanted to come back.
The real problem is that PPC is VERY hard to become successful at,and after a young competitor,if they are a good shooter gets to the point(or class) where they stop winning, they quit.Its easier and cheaper to shoot action matches or something else,thats it .We have had many guys who did this.
I still like shooting with the few young guys ,helping them for the time being,and I still believe that no other shooting sport makes a well rounded shooter like PPC,trigger control, all the positions,weakhand shooting and the like.
I was going to write to AH, in respose to the recent retro article about PPC ,but now its off my chest.Hope this doesnt cost me too many friends, but I will still have the cats. Bob Barnes

Great post, fellow LAPD brother. I remember practicing 50 yd behind the bonus line, shooting diagonally, after everyone had gone home. Not much support for the team then, either. PPC has gotten somewhat silly; I did the same as you and quit PPC, returning to bullseye with the Army Reserve team. A very frustrating, yet gratifying sport of pure marksmanship that is the basis of all shooting endeavors. Lots of memories in your post.
Bob

Funny Bob, seems we just had a similar conversation last weekend , good to see some score cards from you too.

To add on to some of what you said, for those that beef about "supported" teams, in my case at the Federal level. You spoke about a couple of my team mates, and I can add that both Clay and Rob spend a lot of their off time practicing and not all of that practice involves putting rounds down range. My agency supports the team with ammo for matches but we haven't had an issue of practice ammo for three years. The agency does send us to 5 matches per year (generally, but this year I understand that was cut to three) yet most of us shoot 20+ matches in addition to those we get sent to. Compliments of my promotion earlier this year my Chief did not forward my name for the team, stating he needed me here to do my job. That's cool, I understand but I'll still be gone a bunch, just on leave instead because I enjoy the sport. I don't get any ammo so I'll have to cut back on practice or kick up my reloading efforts. My next goal is the 1490 Club, I know I can do it if I can learn to keep my mind out of the match and not overthink any stage.

I often try to practice with my wife's team, but like John, I usually end up spending most of my day coaching and helping her team. I think that is another trait many of my team mates share - have you ever seen Clay or Rob (or any of the others for that matter) not helping someone out or coaching practice, no matter what agency they shoot for? I consider myself lucky if I get to make one Match 3 practice before I go back to working with her team mates. I almost think that the coaching aspect is as good, or better than actual trigger time in some respects.

With the exception of a few human Ranson Rests, we all have to keep working to improve at this game. That takes time, money and desire. The only one I seem to have plenty of is desire, the time and money have to be managed and squeezed to make the majority of the matches.

I also agree that the awards at the NPSC have taken on a a 6th grade soccer match feel. A few years ago when the NRA wanted feedback on the awards I wrote that it should be limited to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, as did many of the competitors I know. Instead the next year they are handing out lucite to 10 places! I mean, who really wants a trophy spouting that they placed 10th in anything? If 2nd place truely is the 1st loser, where does that leave a 10th place winner?

Now, I will admit that when I first tried PPC I found it too slow, too boring and too disciplined so I shot the action matches and steel plate stuff. It was fast, furious and easy...but didn't satisfy. Then one day I woke up and decided I needed some boring discipline, went to the next PPC match and been shooting PPC every since and it has kicked my butt repeatedly! That first honest to God match I shot was at the old RSO range and I had John Pride to my right and Marc Cobb to my left and boy did I feel small. Maybe one day many of the newer shooters who are hooked on the fast and furious will wake up and decide they need some discipline too.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

It takes discipline to get really good at the "fast and furious" stuff too (not knocking any shooting sport as I like most of them, including PPC).

My agency gives me zippy...nothing. I pay for the components and load 20K+ rounds in any given year (65K was my highest year), work my tail off at it, and sacrifice other things to get better...that's why I win a lot of matches. I also find I spend a ton of time helping the underclassmen at the clubs where I shoot...somebody helped me years ago, so I'm repaying that debt.

Hi Bob,
Count me in as a PPC shooter who competed - with some breaks - for 35+ years with no support from any agency I worked for. Back when I used to be good I would make an 80 mile round trip to practice at a range that had a 50 yard line. Most of the time my only practice was when I was shooting a match. I work at a range now that I can practice at, but don't have quite the drive to do so that I used to have. Plus, it's been many a year since I had a teammate. Costs for going to a match have continued to go up to the point where I may only do 1 or 2 matches a year, if that.
I have been seriously thinking that I will not shoot after this year. This year's NPSC for sure will be my last, only because I want to have a face to face meeting with the NRA staff. At last years NPSC, the first I have attended in New Mexico, I shot as a New Shooter as I had not been to a NPSC since the last year in Jackson. Won some guns, which I did not hear about until after the deadline to claim them, and none of which were legal to bring into California. If I hadn't gotten the 1099 I never would have known that I won them. Also won a certificate for some merchandise that I sent for but never received. Paid taxes on that too. I want to find out why NRA wouldn't tell me that I won anything, and why they would award guns, not legal for California, to someone in that state.
I always enjoyed seeing you at the matches Bob. Good luck with the Bullseye matches, you will do fine.
Al Culbertson

HEY BOB , CALL ME I HAVE ACCESS TO NIB RRA WAD AND BALL GUNS. JIM P

To all,Thanks guys ,Im really happy to hear you all chime in. I know that many of you have grit your teeth,over the years when someone HINTED that your success was due to being given stuff instead of hard work. I 've been kinda PO'd (probably an over reaction), since I read the recent AH article by Mas,that commented that PPC and some of the more successful teams might be drying up because their depts would no longer pay for them to shoot.At first I laughed,then thought how that slighted those of us that have worked so hard , given up so much,to be successful.
I remember the first year at Albuquerque, Clay Tippet commenting that he had to take 2 weeks vacation to get to practice before NPSC,imagine him, not getting time to practice,then suffer through the bait and switch, and thats exactly what it was,of not giving out the NEW awards matrix until after you had registered. If they tried that at Bianchi Cup they would string them up,or probably sue.I wrote a long letter to whoever that year,but recieved , no respose.
Anyway,not that this is a mutual admiration society,but no one I know of, has done more or given more at least for CA. PPC than Al Culbertson. So to get him PO'd is an accomplishment. Al , barring a back surgery, I promise to meet you at the NPSC , just to attend that meeting , maybe we can get a few more to join us!!!!
After the first year there, we all thought ,oh well they will get it right next year, it just hasnt happened and in many cases it has gotten worse, Al's example,what a potential nightmare dealing with the IRS and stuff. The store that ships the guns told me last year that they have had guns sit there every year unclaimed without even a name attached to them. So even if you called them they wouldnt know if you had one sitting there.
I actually think the awarding of guns for 1st -4 or 5 in each class is great,thats how to keep guys interested(although it takes more than guns). However, even when I tried to explain to them that 10th place highmaster versus 1st place municipal isnt a better prize. Long after the gun has been sold or given to a relative,the 1st place award ,Top municipal or County for the nation means alot more. The guy behind the counter just looked at me like I was goofy. I just dont think they get it.
Ive long explained to guys at work who thought it was great that you could win a gun, that if a gun prize was all you were going for, a shooter could stay home and spend the money buying any gun you want. Its about the achievement,and friends and times,especially when you get older and still want to relive your accomplishments,with the younger guys.(JUST telling the truth). Anyway thanks guys. BB

Looking forward to seeing you in September Bob. The meeting should be interesting.

KAC

KAC: SO THEY GOT YOU TOO. LAST YEAR THE MORNING OF THE TEAM MATCH I WAS ON THE NEW ELECTRICAL KIOSK FOR WINNING A GUN. I WENT IN TO COLLECT ( WITH MY FFL IN HAND) THEY CHECKED AND AGREED AND GAVE ME MY OTHER PRIZES AND WAS TOLD THE FFL DEALER WAS NOT IN YET. THAT I WOULD HAVE TO COME BACK. AS I WALKED OUT THE FFL WAS SETTING UP. I STOPPED AND DID THE FFL STUFF WITH HIM. EVEN GAVE HIM THE PRIZE NUMBER. BUT NOW THE AWARD LINE WAS TOO LONG. I HAD TO GO SHOOT TEAM. AFTER TEAM I WENT IN . STOOD IN LINE AND THE GIRL COULDN'T FIND THE PRIZE . THEY SENT ME TO M.L. . WHEN I TOLD HIM I WAS TO PICK UP A GUN ,HE DIDN'T EVEN CHECK COMPUTER, PAPERWORK OR ANYTHING. HE JUST STATED THERE WAS A MISTAKE AND MY PRIZE WAS GOING TO A NEW SHOOTER. I ASKED IF THE ERROR HAD BEEN POSTED? OR IF I WAS THE ONLY ONE. HE REFUSED TO ANSWER. I TRIED TO SEE G.H. ABOUT IT BUT WAS TOLD HE WAS TOO BUSY. IT MAKES ME BELIEVE THAT IT WAS JUST BECAUSE IT WAS ME. I ASKED DOZENS OF PEOPLE IF ANYONE ELSE HAD A GUN TAKEN AWAY FOR THEM AND WAS UNABLE TO FIND ONE. JIM P

Yeah, I was told on Thursday (Team day) that I hadn't won any guns. Fine with me, though always a little dissapointing. Then in January got a 1099 for over $6,000. I didn't pick up merchandise worth near that amount so I checked with NRA. Thats when I found out what they said I won. As has been said, they have some 'splainin' to do. I also wonder if this was done because of my classification.

KAC

I am the lone ranger in a department of 115 and my desire with PPC is the precision involved.

It seems simple to have a gun set up and do neck holds and one should be able to get those 10s and Xs......WRONG!!!!!

I like the discipline part of it. I provide my own ammo (mainly reloads when allowed) and equipment however I was able to talk my supervisor to approve transportation to include fuel to some of the texas matches. and to be paid since my supervisor sees it as training.

cannot afford to travel out of state for a week for the nationals (the hotel and entry fees)

with only a few solid years under my belt shooting PPC, I feel I am still a rookie, well behind those who have been shooting for 20, 30 + years. learning and identifying problems and even though MKT is half a country away.....he helps me iron out issues. THANKS MKT!!!!!!!!

I will continue to shoot events that I can make and afford, but my time these days are very short with no real time to train and reload with a busy work schedule juggling my regular job, being on call, working extra jobs and then my academy assignments....so I have to stick it in somewhere.

I am only competing against myself and want to do better each time....and I need to find a grand laying around somewhere and get a revolver built by Jones before he retires!!!!!!

You guys are preaching to the choir. Now, I wonder why NRA LEAD isn't listening.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

Hope you guys don't mind a civilian chiming in who shot "unofficially" for years.

In our small little corner of the world PPC was shot for fun and the local cops liked the extra revenue coming into their matches so civilian shooters were a common sight. Most times, there were trophies for both LE and civilian classes. Everyone got along, more rounds were expended, more guns were bought, more gunsmith work was available. The LEOs weren't competing directly with us and a good time was had by all.

Then it was 'suggested' (it was said) by an NRA field rep that they 'shouldn't allow civilian participation' . NRA recognized PPC as a LE only sport and when a field rep came by a local club meeting some time later glad handing for money, we asked about it and was told that it was bad for the image to have civies shooting at humanoid targets. Guess he'd never seen an IPSC match . . . .

Long story short, we made the same arguments as above about all the positive points and were told, "you should write a letter to the NRA about that" as a way to shut us up.

I have met just a very few officers who felt the same way - that civilians shouldn't be in the sport; but they were a small minority. But then, we're in a rural area for the most part.

I often advised new shooters that PPC was a great way to learn good basic shooting skills and learn proper handling under supervised match conditions. Especially in this day and time a lot of the old policies and attitudes just don't make sense anymore. It's a shame that a lot of this stuff gets entrenched and it seems there are still a lot of politics played at the official level as far as the details you guys have been relating. Just makes you wonder who benefits and what their vision for the shooting sports is.

Rant off.

Very well said CALREB. Great thread. Regards 18DAI.

It has been a good long time before I shot PPC, but I enjoyed the precision and the need for accuracy. Never shot above a 1467, never won a match or a gun. We only shot revolvers then and there was a shotgun side match that some shot. Back then PPC was the only game other than bullseye. Frankly, I never saw the need for a LE only attitude. Bianchi cup and other shooting sports are not restrictive.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

I held out on saying anything but I guess I will now. I've shot PPC for over ten-years. The last time I shot a match was in 2000. If I said that it because of the NRA LEAD alone it wouldn't give the whole picture. As I moved up the chain of command in my old department and took on new responsibilities, I couldn't devote all the time I spent lifting weights, running, biking, dry-firing, practicing on the range, and shooting matches. My department never supported me. It was a terrible burden to try and go to matches, have enough ammunition, and have all the guns LEAD wanted you to have to be able to shoot every match in PPC. Nevertheless, I did it and was somewhat successful. I won my Revolver Distinguished Badge which was my main goal with three ten-point legs. One of those I won outright. I could never break 1490 but shot plenty of 1489s . I was a High Master before they changed to new classification system.

Over the years I have watched as PPC has gone down the drain. I wrote several letters and made calls to LEAD when I was an officer in our State Association to express my concern for the fact I could see it dying. The facts were that it was too expensive for the average guy to get started in, and we were still devoted to revolvers (I still love them too.) and the rest of the LEO world was switching to semi-autos. There were a number of reasons it wasn't evolving to a sport where a rookie could jump in but the main one I saw was the "professional shooters". These folks were controlling the whole show through the NRA Board and LEAD. They were the ones that appeared to have a position in their departments to allow them to compete and do nothing else. In other words, these weren't street cops not like the old days.

So now it has become a sport where you must have a PPC revolver, a PPC Auto, a Distinguished Revolver, a Distinguished Auto, a Service Revolver, a Stock-Auto, an Off-Duty revolver, an Off-Duty Auto, a Shotgun and did I leave anything out? What cops can afford all of this stuff much less the ammunition to shoot in it? And how much of this is relevant to police equipment and training for today? Which is why it is drying up.

Currently, I shoot local IDPA and other action style matches. I am not classified nor do I want to be. The local IDPA matches will have as many as 50 shooters there just for a practice match. The last PPC match I went to had 7.

PPC needs to evolve. I haven't shot one of the "tactical" matches but this may be what it needs. New officers aren't interested in static courses like PPC and in antiquated shooting positions like sitting at the 50-yd line.

With all that said, I may break out my Distinguished Revolver and PPC gun and go to next month's match. I hate to see it die but it needs to change.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

One reason IDPA draws 50 shooters is because it is easy for the average shooter to do. PPC takes much effort, and requires extreme marksmanship, way beyond what todays shooters are capable of. Brian Enos has said he has seen USPSA "Master " class shooters that could not hit an 8 inch Bianchi plate at 25 yards. That just about sums it up. Sad but true.

"way beyond what todays shooters are capable of"

SORRY BUT I DISAGREE. TODAYS SHOOTERS ARE CAPABLE, BUT LACK THE DRIVE OR MOTIVATION TO EXCEL. THEY WANT INSTANT GRATIFICATION. THEY WANT TO BE GOOD NOW. IT TOOK ME 8 YEARS TO MAKE HIGH MASTER AND BREAK 1490. JP

Several people have made suggestion to the NRA LEAD staff ,that if they wanted to help PPC. Make a stock firearm class, like distinguished guns but in a seperate division,and you cant shoot both.Something like that ,but they keep changing firearms rules and worrying about non important BS,Because they know nothing or dont care about PPC competitive history.
Like allowing Bull barreled semi autos in Distinguished.Poor guys that are trying to point out with their standard 5" and now have to compete against that to get points. I just dont understand the reasoning.
And how about the PPC coverage in the magazine,BOY that short barely 2 page , really only 1,not even listing the winners of the events article is sure to bring out some new shooters.
Yet, Im glad to see their most recent issue has a 5 page article on regurgitated self defense pistol stuff, listing some people from "TOP SHOT" as some type of shooting experts, and another 3-4 pages on some other REALITY gun show that ( no offense to those guys ,trying to make a living) is , well maybe I'm weird or getting old, but idiotic.
But I guess at least the higher ups at the NRA's kids have jobs,so maybe there is a good side. Like I said they must be getting their ideas somewhere. Just pick up an old AR magazine from the 60-70s and compare content and articles.REB

CALREB, I remember reading how Jim Collins won his first national championship. It was that article that helped me decide to be a police officer and led me to competitive shooting.

All this talk has me knocking the dust off of my distinguished and ppc revolvers. Who knows? I may be at the next match.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

Bob,
You are spot on. That is the reason why PPC has gone ffrom 600 competitors in Jackson to 290+ in Albuquerque.
It is another reason why I went to Bullseye. It is truly harder and more demanding than PPC but the effort is worth it. Welcome to Bullseye
Philip

Thanks Phil, Unfortunately Im not going to make it to the NPSC again this year, back surgery 8 weeks ago ,hasnt come around like I was hoping, just taking longer.
Anyway, what I really wanted to attend for was the chance to try and stem some of this damage (as I see it) to the sport.
In reviewing the latest posted rules I see that (whoever decides this stuff) has recently decided that any sight cut not done at the factory now disqualifies your gun as a non factory modification to the slide or frame. If Im interpreting this stuff correctly.
WHO do they think came up with Distinguished semi autos BEFORE the major companies made them. SO anybody's Alan Tanaka, Bob Jones or other non factory made Dist S/A is illegal now!!!!! Even my 12 year old Springfield that was made from a standard model by Springfield , isnt allowed because it originally came with Novak sights.
Same with stock models that maybe didnt come with Bomar type sights arent ok for stock auto if it didnt come from the factory that way. I hope Im looking at this wrong, but I dont think so.
You know they are carrying this (catalog item) thing a bit far , S&W Performance Center guns are not catalog items- BUT their Distinguished Gun is ok, because they dont know how to change that after 13-14 years.
But you order a TOTALLY custom 1911 where you choose, barrel ,trigger,checkering,finish ,grips,AND then wait 14-18 months and you get a catalog distinguished gun. AND does anyone really think Springfield has made 1000 6" PPC SEMI AUTOS, I dont think so !
I have been shooting a Springfield gun for over 10 years ,so I have nothing against their gun, but come on, its not a Distinguished gun. I just dont understand the thinking, and I would like the officials that thought it up to explain it to me.
I would hate to be standing in line as the refs try to decide if a sight cut on a semi auto is factory or done after by a competent gunsmith.Or worse the poor competitor who read the rule that he can change the sights, but didnt realize he couldnt change the sight cut , and admits " OH yes, it had fixed sights and I had Bomars installed" SORRY your gun is now illegal, even though the Factory sells that exact model" what a potential mess, maybe the refs will take control and say this is bunk . Anyway good luck to all that go. Bob

Well, for the PPC shooters, here is a new twist compliments of the NRA Law Enforcement Activities Divison; they've begun reclassifying shooters based on their off-duty and stock auto/revolver matches.

The classification system has always been based on the PPC course (1500) and when they started shooting the "little" guns, you shot in your appropriate class. One of the shooters here in Albuquerque, who just recently posted a Sharpshooter score as a Classified shooter, was properly reclassified as a Marksman. Then on 9/6/11 he was reclassified again as a Master and the NRA Competitions folks told him it was because he shoot better than 98.1% on his stock auto and off-duty auto matches. He will be shooting way out of his ability shooitng in the Master class.

It appears they have begun reclassifying all of the shooters based on their "little" gun scores the week before the Nationals. And for those who wonder, I was reclassified too with the auto after two good runs with the stock auto.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

I was wondering why my classification just jumped up last week. Hmmm, well...I'm no sandbagger...so, bring on the competition I reckon.

Well ,, that make a whole lot of sense, I have heartburn and Im not even there. Nice that they dont put out that info before NPSC, another bait and switch , like the first year in Albuquerque.!!!
So now some moron has figured that because you can shoot just a few points down on a very easy short gun course, its only fair that you compete in the High Master class or Master Class in the open gun divisions. MAYBE they just dont have enough to do!!!
I mean, here is a competitor, who shoots his duty pistol well,cause thats all he's had. Suddenly he invest a big gun and wants to compete in the open competition and he finds himself thrown in the master/HM class. BOY, thats gonna keep him coming back !!!!
I tell you, I think the NRA has put out the word, to get PPC shutdown any way possible, so they can just do 3 gun , cause they think thats where the real money is.
Which is all they really care about....Good luck guys, now Im really upset for our new shooters. OH Well, I was so mad had to come back after I calmed down and edit the spelling.

Yea Bob, let me tell you there are a bunch of hot folks here in Albuquerque.

One of the CA shooters from Indio has been shooting semi-auto as Classified all year and at the Paradise classic he punched a low Sharpshooter score, so he gets reclassed as Marksman properly. Then, because he's had a couple Outstanding runs with the little guns, he gets reclassed again at a Master. Now he gets to compete with those higher classed shooters while barely able to break 1400. That will really do wonders for the sport!

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Non illegitimae carborundum

I feel like a no body reading these posts from what I call "some of the best PPC shooters in the country"When I started ppc in the early 80's I had a 4 in mod 19.Then bought myself a 6 in mod 28.after shooting for 1 year my scores were good enough to get me into the N.C Governors twenty.After that year I decided to order a Bill Davis custom.It arrived 3 days befor My first out of NC match,Beltsville, MD.Well I was in awe seeing some of the greatest shooters in the world on the same firing line that I was on. This one Guy was beside me on the line and he looked at my brand new Bill Davis Custom PPC double action only revolver and he said "Son how do you like you gun?" I told him that I was sure it would shoot alot better than I was capable of shooting.HE looked at me and said "I want to shake your hand .I'm Bill Davis and I built that gun Two weeks ago. Most people blame the gun not their ability to shoot it on there poor scores ." Well that day I think I shot a 1428 .After that my scores kept climbing until I finally broke 1480.That was my highest score that I ever fired.I did make the Gov twenty for 16 years,never made it to the nationals, and gave up shooting ppc in 1998 because the next year the league went semi auto duty guns.I'm a revo guy not a jamamatic guy.I finished my last year in 3rd in NC .I still have My Bill Davis gun and still take it out to the range once in a while.Thank you guys for bringing back memories.

So is PPC open ONLY to LEO's? I thought I read that somewhere and have been trying to do some searching and thought you guys would know for sure. I would love to shoot in PPC, if I can't I am thinking of setting up my little home range to at least shoot through some of the stages ( I don't know about all the stages aand what they are like as yet). Being able to shoot in any kind of match of PPC would be great though. Also, does anyone know if there are matches similar to PPC a civvy could shoot in? Thanks in advance!

You don't list where your from, but some states have civilian PPC leagues in conjunction with the regular LEO leagues. Other states are stictly by the active or honorably retired LEO rule.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

N.C. used to have a civilian category in the PPC matches but now they don't shoot ppc any longer.Their new format is Police Tactical 3 gun.Lot's of fun but a lot more expensive too.

Figures...I am from western NC and there is not a whole out this way unless you drive a few hours. That's why with the land I have I may just set up my own PPC from what I read and the videos on Youtube Handy to be sure to go out and shoot but it's just not the same as going to a real match. Some sites have postal matches which I have taken part in....on the honor system. Maybe there is a site that has that category. I think it could be done that way...all you need is a place to shoot, guns,targets and a timer. Not sure how far one can go on the honor system though...all the way to number one I guess if they don't go by it

First, I'm not a LEO. But in the 80's and into the 90's I was an auxiliary member of the IL Police Assoc. That enabled me and quite a few others to compete in statewide match's, (but we competed against other auxiliary members for statewide but against all shooters locally). We shot a 48 round match, no 50 yd distance. We all shot service level guns or tuned 6" revolvers. I still have my early 686 with a wonderful trigger. I eventually went to a Gold Cup. It was great while it lasted, until the local dept. lost it's range. My most favorite match was when I won 1st. Expert, and my 17 yr old son won 2nd Expert. Best I ever did was 2nd Master the day I shot a 478 @ 480.

The local dept. at that time would also have invitational shoots, open to the public. It was really neat to see nearly 100 people turn out to shoot a match. That only lasted until the one dept. individual that had the gumption to coordinate it was killed in a boating accident.

It's really great when a local dept. and the community civilians can cooperate in a common sport.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Well, a quick update on the last minute reclassifications.

Apparently enough folks filed protests and the decision was made to restore everyone's classififcation to whatever they had prior to 9/6, unless they shot well enough to bump up in the 1500 match. Most of the reclassifications were based on the short gun courses and not the 1500's. It is a total cluster as far as who won what in what class, but it'll all be worked out in short order.

After all that, it was a great day with the semi auto for me.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

MKT.....when you get a chance....update plz.

good luck, have fun and send some cooler weather to South Texas with about 4-6 inches of rain!

Im pretty new to pistol <revolver> shooting <only been doing it for a few years since I got out of the Corps, <I was a 0311 SAW gunner, not much pistol time> all my shooting since that has all been private in the desert, all alone heh.

But I have become very interested in PPC courses and competition. I would like to start shooting competitively, I just don't know anything about nothin hehheh. So any advice you guys have or the poster especially would be like gold for me. Also any pics of your PPC courses, matches, guns, or any of your competitions would be amazing!!

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TheOlderIGetTheFasterIWas.

Great post! Make me want try harder! I remember last year when I looked into PPC, I told myself how hard can it be? You’re at a standstill with the target right front of you. So, I bought my self a PPC revolver that was built my bob jones from gunbroker and went to the first match in long beach. Let me just say it was a humbling experience. It’s so challenging, that’s what got me hooked. I’ve been to all the CPPA matches except one this season. It’s expensive but well worth it. Counting the days till next season. I just hope to see more new shooters. Thank you Mr. barnes for the tips and plumb-bob.

In an earlier post I laid out my problems with awards I was supposed to receive from the 2010 NPSC. I spoke to several NRA people at the 2011 NPSC but really didn't get any satisfaction. Today I received a letter from NRA that stated I hadn't really won the rifles they originally said I did. Let me lay out the details:

In the Official Program for the 2010 NPSC the rules were spelled out for the "New Shooter" awards. Simply stated, on the registration form, you had to have never competed in a NPSC, OR, had not competed for at least 3 years. This rule was also repeated in the Official Program booklet that all competitors received when they registered at the range. I have a PPC High Master classification, as I have had since, well it has been a long time. However, since I had not competed in a NPSC since 2004, I signed up as a New Shooter - their rules. At the end of the 2010 NPSC I was told that I had not won any firearms. In January of this year I received a 1099 for over $6,000, way more than what I had in my hands. After contacting the person at NRA who issued the 1099 I was informed that I had won 3 rifles whose total value was in excess of $5,500. Since I had not received these rifles, in fact had not been informed that I had won them, I asked to have an ammended 1099 issued, which NRA did. The discussions I had at this years NPSC revolved around wheither or not I had won the rifles. The issue was not resolved, but I was promised a resolution as soon as possible.

Today's letter stated that I had originally been awarded the rifles as a New Shooter. However, the letter continued, this was done in error because of my classification. Now, this year the rules for New Shooter have been changed and apparently NRA is retroactively applying those new rules to the 2010 NPSC. I was p.o.'ed to say the least and have registered my displeasure. It will probably take several more months to hear back from NRA, but as I hear more I will post it here.

Al Culbertson

Gee Al, no love for us from CA, Check 2009 , I think the new shooter was a fellow from Texas who also was a HM , and the year before an EXP or master, not knocking them ,thats the present rules but , why the problem with you ???
THEY consistently make up the rules as they go along.Look at the first years there, no pre match pamplet , you get there and oh we forgot to tell you , WE changed the awards rules , sorry . I wish they would try that ****## at the Bianchi Cup and see what happens.
We just spent a ton of money fitting PPC 9s with sights and now after 2 years , suddenly they are not allowed.I really wish they would get it together, but the current guys are BOZO's and thats all you can say. When they pushed out or lost Patty , Martha and Toy, and took in the last couple Guys its gone consistently downhill. Im too old to change to another sport, maybe bullseye, when I retire,
But for right now my health is back and Im seriously considering making an effort to get something done or make their life miserable. They cant do anything to us , what not give me a gun, big deal, I know you have given away more stuff than most guys win . I just hate to see it going so badly, it seems that they almost want to drive guys away.
You know when they came out with all this slide cut ,other than the factory stuff, I thought , who do these guys think built the first Dist Semi autos,or for stock, technically by their rules all Tanaka, Jones, Clark, such, autos are altered weapons , not allowed ,cause they werent done by the factory, if I read it correctly .It leaves you shaking you head.

Yeah, what I think happened is they saw another High Master won the new shooter awards so they made the decision to change the rules after the event was over. Doesn't seem like they are the most honest bunch. Hard to believe they were peace officers at one time. I agree with you, too, about the PPC9/Stock Auto decision. I shot the 2010 and 2011 NPSC with my ppc9 as a stock auto and the ref's didn't give it a second look. What we have is a group making decisions on rules that have not shot in years, and have no idea, or don't care, about how their decisions affect the competitors. No more nationals for me until they fire the two idiots running them.

My local club has a PPC event we do once a month. We do this match for fun, not a sanctioned event. I am curious as to what the "real" PPC event entails.

We only use one handgun and a perfect score is 600.

I see the 1500 number being the "magic" number for the PPC events being discussed above.

I enjoy it and find it very difficult to do well. There are a LOT of semi-auto .22's in there, but I stick with my revolvers in either .38 Special, .40 cal, or .45 ACP.

The 60 round course is the National Police Course, 4 stages fired at the 7, 25 and 50 yard lines. The Open Class Course consists of 150 rounds, 5 matches fired at the 7, 15, 25 and 50 yard lines.

In southeast Michigan, there are several PPC leagues, formal and informal, going on. Generally open to civilians.

The indoor leagues deviate from the old NRA by using the B-27 target throughout for the 600 rather than the B-29 (reduced) target for the 50 ft stages. Been 35 years since I shot PPC in Industrial back then.

just started back up as a winter change from summertime ATA trap!

CalReb...if you want to try something new find an NRA Action Pistol match. The rules in PPC are kinda ridiculous and they make one wonder what the purpose of some of the rules are (other than to keep another competitor from beating the big dogs) but hey... it's still fun! I started shooting Action Pistol too and it is alot of fun and doesn't have all the running, jumping, diving through toilet rings, etc to "simulate" real world everyday life (I have bad wheels now and running and jumping are only memories). I thought after shooting PPC the targets looked big and man...how hard can this be? I found out it can be somewhat humiliating until you start getting the hang of it. Still want to shoot my PPC though. And I found that the Action Pistol stuff is actually helping me in PPC and vica versa.

KSchock, If your talking about NRA Action Pistol like Bianchi Cup, Ive shot quite a bit of that in the early 80's. Is alot of fun and I will probably do it again , when I retire and have a practice range,.
I thought the original Bianchi Cup was a way cool , classy match, I enjoyed all the BBQ's and Cocktail parties they had in the past, I dont think its like that anymore, but hopefully the guys running it now still have a good match, it sounds like they do.
Not sure about the rule changes keeping anyone from beating the big dogs, Its always been pretty simple, beat someone by a point and you win. The last few years its been all about making sure the same people dont win all the prizes even if they win the events ( usually those who spent the most time, money, effort) to win .
There have always been enough prizes to award those winners in every classification 1-2-3, so I never thought much about it not being fair.
Good thing Michael Phelps didnt have to deal with it he could have only won 3 Gold Medals, HA .ThanksBob

Fellas, being up here in Canada, I could go on all day about shooting "problems". I've been doing the PPC circuit since 1980. Some years more, some less. I can echo EVERY one of the beeches that have been mentioned on this thread.

My only suggestion is: if you love shooting, and love the sport, don't cut the nose off, to spite the face.

It's a great shooting sport/pass time, and I for one, would hate to see PPC disappear.

The shooting and the guys I have met, have made some very memorable memories for me.

I will be continuing, and hopefully see you guys on the range, and please let me be the first to buy you guys a tasty beverage.