I thought I prepared myself and the gun well for the state match by doing the following:

1. Tested different ammo, decide on one and stick to it for range practice and for the match
2. Tested all mags at the range and take the good ones to the match
3. clean and lube the pistol thoroughly before the match
4. attended several local matches

Well, at the state match, I got bitten pretty badly. My SW1911PC failed.

The piece of metal that sits between the slide-lock and the thumb-safety popped out and disappeared during the match. I did not even know when it happened.

Then, the slide started to lock on alternate rds. I had to rack it and get it going. It locked up again soon after that. Note that mag still have rds in there.

It deteriorated to a state where it slide-locked on every rd. I stepped aside to the safe area to re-oil it and it did not help much. After 2-3 rds, it went back to locking after every rd.

Note that this behavior occurred after only about 70+ rds with a clean pistol to begin with. I usually shoot 150-250 rds at the range per session without oiling and no such problems occurred. I have put slightly over 1,000 rds thru this pistol before this happened.

Question:

1. How do you guys prep your gun before a big match so that these things don't happen?
2. What exactly is that missing metal piece (picture attached) used for? I am guessing it is related to thumb-safety since without it, it is not functioning well

Attached Images

170261_01_lg (1).jpg (76.2 KB, 116 views)

That part that disappeared is the plunger tube. When it flew off it took the plunger spring assembly with it. With these parts gone, the slide stop and thumb safety have no tension applied to them and would be very unpredictable, as you experienced first hand. The only way to prevent something like this is to buy a better quality 1911, and even then, stuff happens.

Thanks for identifying the part and the related parts that flew off.

This gun is a SW1911 Performance Center product. How much better can it get by going to another brand? Do you happen to know that SW1911PC gun have a history of failures?

Actually, I did not see a similar component in SA TRP or the Kimber Gold Combat. Is this plunger unique to SW1911?

No, I'm sure the SW1911PC is a very well built gun. It's just that you don't have the track record of owning an Ed Brown, Wilson, etc. I love S&W, but there is a history of stupidly simple things being wrong on standard and even Performance Center guns. They are well built, but seem to lack the fine attention to detail that you get with other 1911 options. It is not surprising to me in the least that you have parts flying off of your PC 1911.

Then again, S&Ws customer service is second to none, and I'm sure they will fix your gun quickly. But it's kind of that vicious cycle that a small percentage of new S&W owners experience. Most of these guns wouldn't have to be sent in at all if they were done right the first time.

The plunger tube and plunger spring assembly are common to all 1911s.

I would have to pay 2-3 times more than the SW1911PC to get a low-end Wilson.

[...]

And, it has to happen right in the middle of my state level championship. Can't believe why didn't it happen during the first 1,000 rds at the range.

It's pretty aggravating having to spend all these money on the gun, ammo, fees for matches, not to mention the time and effort ... absolutely unbelievable!

I definitely understand your frustration, and I hope it doesn't turn you off to S&W. Take a look at Kimber or top-end Springfields. I'm not saying either are equivalent to top tier 1911s, but I've never had parts fly off of my Kimber.... *shrug* Heck, my beat up, used Ultra Carry II is probably the most accurate semi-auto I own.

Actually, it is during a big match that things like this will happen...Murphey and all. My first trip to the Nationals, mid Match 4, I sheared the hammer nose. Happened again the following year right after Match 1. Now I change the hammer nose on my open class revolver immediatelt before the Nationals.

Now I have never lost a plunger tube off a 1911 but like anything mechanical it can happen. That small tube is staked to the frame and it could work loose. Since your gun is a PC gun it should be covered under the lifetime warranty, call to get a shipping label and let the PC shop install a new tube and replace the missing internals. It won't cost you anything and you'll probably not lose one again.

What type of match were you shooting?

__________________
Non illegitimae carborundum

The problem with your plunger tube is in it's design and origin. Remember that they are staked on...the only manufacturer that I know of that the plunger tube is integral to the frame is the new Ruger.
This problem can happen with Colts, Kimbers, Springfield Armory's, Wilson's. Ed Brown's, etc.
Mind you, it does not happen often, but if the peening of the stakes inside the frame is not drawn up tight it can and does happen.
This is NOT a S&W problem but a 1911 problem.
I DO know how you feel as I once broke 3 1911's in one USPSA match when I lived in Idaho Falls.......the club awarded me their hard luck trophy....a blue trainer 1911 and was told to TRY and break this one!
You did all of the right things......things happen when we start to race them just like race cars....
Don't let it get to you.
Randy
PS. I also learned to carry a spare gun when going to major matches....

Good to know that things like these do happen.

What is holding this plunger tube to the frame? If it is 2 stakes poking thru 2 holes, may be the holes are a little out of spec and that's why the plunger popped out so easily.
In short, what is there to prevent it from popping out again?

I was at a state level IDPA championship.

Buy an STI they are built from the gound up for competition shooting. You will probably see more STI 1911s being shot in IPSC matches than almost any other, and they tend not to break very easily. As for cost, if you are going to compete in other than local club matchs, cost is not a real consideration, quality of workmanship and reliability is. A quality reliable pistol is not inexpensive. The top competitors are not doing it on the cheap.

This seems like a design flaw, then. Why is there so much press and books calling the 1911 the most reliable combat gun? If this were to happen in the field, the FBI HRT and the LAPD SWAT guys would get killed. Are there something different in the Govn't guns? Did they lock their plunger-tube stakes on the inside?

The plunger tubes protrude slightly past the inside wall of the frame and then with a special staking tool the stakes are peened over much like a rivot.The problem you had doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Yes, the 1911 platform is quite reliable and armed forces for over 100 years have trusted it as I do.

Smith will certainly take good care of you on this and rest assured that you will never have another problem with the plunger tube again.

Nothing man made is infallible, the difference is how the maker takes care of it for you and Smith & Wesson WILL take good care of you.

Randy

I also see that some experts are saying the rear stake of the plunger tube is the one that usually breaks off. Is the plunger tube made of forged steal or just a MIM/cast?

Thanks, Randy, for the detailed and helpful description. I'm getting a better picture now of the internals.

I have already written to S&W and I am pretty sure they will send me a FedEx mailing supply to get the gun back to their smiths.

When mine broke in my Springfield Armory it was the rear stake like was mentioned,which is more common than the entire assembly breaking off.
If I were to be preparing my gun for a major match I would inspect the stakes for my own piece of mind.

I don't know the numbers but I would bet that it is less than 1 in a 250,000 on a stake failure.

Welcome to the wacky world of competitive shooting!

Randy

Hi Aurthury,

My competition experience is limited to local 3 gun matches, but as soon as I could afford to, I bought a matching back up gun. I think someone already mentioned this. Very frustrating to practice, travel and pay an entrance fee and have a gun go down on the first stage. Lots of wasted time and money. I don't know if the league your shooting in would allow for it, but it is worth the expense.

Good luck,

Paul

As far as match preparedness, that is rule #1. Also carry spares for other critical things, like magazines. And remember rule #2 - Murphey lives!

While this will probably never happen again, the emergency drill for a right-handed shooter is:

• Right thumb on the safety to hold it down.
• Left thumb on the slide stop to hold it down.

Handy to know if the next time it's more than a trophy on the line.

Buck

I read a book on match shooting 25 years ago, and it mentioned everything you list in your prep, but one additional one. After cleaning your gun thoroughly go out and shoot a couple magazine fulls through it to settle every thing down and look for problems.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I don't know any shooting discipline that would NOT allow replacement of a disabled or broken gun as long as it is the same caliber and type. If you shoot a 1911, carry a 1911 backup. Doesn't have to be the same mfg. but that is nice. As long as it performs in the same manner and feels pretty much the same go for it!
When I am using my Springfield Armory 1911 National Match in a match, my SA Loaded or my Dan Wesson Pointman Major are usually in back up.

Randy

Don't mail a letter then wait for a shipping label, call S&W in the morning and talk to the PC Shop. Explain the situation and they'll send you a shipping label. You will need to include a brief letter with the gun explaining what is wrong (even if it is plainly visible, also mention it is your competition gun). They usually get duty and competition guns repaired and back to you pretty quick.

My best round trip on a PC gun, called on Monday had the label on Wednesday, shipped to S&W on Thursday and had the gun back by Wednesday the following week. Mind you, this gun broke two weeks before the PPC Nationals and I received the repaired gun the day before I was leaving and the gun was shipped from CA to MA and back.

__________________
Non illegitimae carborundum

1. If you're never had a gun break, you just haven't shot enough. No matter the brand or cost of the gun, mechanical devices can fail.

2. ALWAYS carry a backup gun to a major match.

I hard broke a revolver at an OK state IDPA match, and had to switch to a backup revolver. Since I was running very close with another competitor, the rotten score on that one stage cost me the Plaque, but I at least got to finish.

Some guns are better than others, but the perfect gun that never fails is made of unobtainium by the mythical gun elves.

Fill out this form for fastest S&W repair service:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...4_757812_image

__________________
Science plus Art

haggis as simple as this is....I have never thought of that before. HOLY PLUNGER TUBE BATMAN!!!!!!!!

thanks for that info!!!!!!!

I have never broke a plunger tube before, but I have had them loosen up. I always replace with a HD unit with longer tabs, ball dremel the inside of the frame, red loctite on the tabs and stake them in.

I know of a gunsmith who puts super strength adhesive on the staking tabs as added insurance. he did that on my Colt Officers ACP and it has been going strong since the early 90s.

another area to think about....what caused the plunger tube to break or come loose....
poor staking by the factory
hard clicking thumb safety.

if your thumb safety detents unusally hard (meaning the click on and off)...in my opinion, it could put added stress on the plunger tube.

I have seen some plunger tube detents and thumb safety detent dimples that are not smooth.

Hilton Yam also suggest a grip panel that actually fit up against your plunger tube for added insurance. all my G10 grips help hold the plunger tube.

thanks again Haggis for that info.

I will call them tomorrow and see how it goes.
Do you think the customer service guys would pass me to the Custom Shop smiths?

Ask....and ye shall receive! Yeah, I am sure they will do so. I too had an amazingly short turn around on my M&P Pro that had too loose a dovetail on the front sight.
Went out on a Monday AM and was back to me on the following Tuesday PM which is great with shipping both ways.
Randy

Looks like S&W is inundated this morning. I asked for Perf Center and operator put me on the queue for Customer Support. Waited for 20mins, no one pick it up.

On a separate topic, I found this article written by the owner of 10-8 Performance (Hilton Yam). Obviously, many of the preparation/maintenance for a duty gun overlaps with those for a competition gun. IMHO, an operational duty gun has far more stringent requirements than a competition gun. So, here is it is ...
Police Magazine article by Hilton Y.

One thing he mentioned about the Plunger Tube is this:
Questions:

• Can someone explain this a little more? Is he saying that the top edge of the grip is touching and supporting the underside of the plunger tube?
• Is he also saying losing the plunger tube is safety issue?

Q1. Some grip panels come up high enough so as to act as a support for the plunger tube. Not sure if they were designed this way on purpose or not but the end result is an elevated degree of support. My Herrett grips are this way.

Q2. You already know the results of a plunger tube failure...does it make the gun unsafe? Not exactly, but it does render it in-operable for a time being. Simply inspect yours from time to time after it gets back from Smith for you own piece of mind.
Keep us posted on S&W's handling....yes, Monday's are busy with calls from all of us week end warriors!
Randy

PS....I shot a USPSA match on Sat. with my CZ 40B in Limited10 and had a firing pin break and had some of the parts hit me in the cheek. Good thing I like Zeiss Scopz shooting glasses!

CZ, just like S&W is taking VERY good care of me on that one.

What are the chances of a firing pin breaking like that and then have the parts hit me in the face anyway...things happen when we race them!
This gun only had about 10,000 rounds downrange so it was almost broke in instead of broken!

To repeat myself, the fastest way is to use the online form to get a shiping label and get the gun shipped. You can put a letter with the gun with all the details.

Warranty Repair Shipping Form - Smith & Wesson

__________________
Science plus Art

I gave up on calling and have submitted the request via the online form you suggested. What's the next step?

plunger tube support from the grip panel

They email you a prepaid shipping label, you put it on the packaged gun, and take it to the designated shipping carrier.

Warranty repairs get priority. My last turnaround was 3 days at S&W plus shipping times. It will be returned free.

__________________
Science plus Art

Based on this, I think mine was fully supported by the grip. The top of my grip is flat is directly underneath the plunger tube.

All hell must have broken loose this last weekend. The S&W boys are not answering the phones nor sending out the mailing labels. It's almost the end of the business day where they are located ... feels like I am working with a gov't agency.

S&W Warranty Stations:

Domestic

• USA
  
  ACTIONS BY GENE INC.
  720 ASH PLACE
  ANCHORAGE, AK 99501
  Phone: (907) 563-9797
• USA
  
  BOLSA GUNSMITHING
  7404 BOLSA AVENUE
  WESTMINSTER, CA 92683
  Phone: (714) 894-9100
• USA
  
  MEL CHUNG - GUNSMITH
  39 ING PLACE
  P.O. BOX 1008
  KAUNAKAKAI, HI 96748
  Phone: (808) 553-5888<LI sizset="302" sizcache="30">USA
  
  LSG
  10059 HWY 1476
  COMANCHE, TX 76442
  Phone: (325) 885-2700
  Email: [email protected]
• USA
  
  GANDER MOUNTAIN
  6801 120TH AVENUE
  KENOSHA, WI 53140
  Phone: (262) 857-3757

__________________
Science plus Art

Online request for prepaid label on Monday.
Received label Wed. 2 days turnaround.

As of today, CS Dept phone is still not accepting calls due to high call traffic.

Shipping it out today.

Keep us posted as to how it all turned out.
Randy

I finally managed to find a person in S&W and I was told that the system routing incoming calls have some technical issues. Sure took them a long time to fix it. As of Wed., the CS dept phone was still down.

According to FedEx, the gun should arrive tomorrow.

According to FedEx, gun arrived Fri.
S&W announced that they are closed today for Hurricane Irene.

What bothers me about this is the fact that this was just a match. What if it had been a gun that was to be used in combat/LE. If you can't trust the little things on a firearm, what can you trust about a brand.

Rule 303

Again, this is not a brand problem. It is a design problem in the 1911. If the plunger tube is not properly staked on it can separate from the frame and cause a problem. It is rare problem, but it does happen.
no need to dis-trust...simply check it for awhile until you are sure that it is solid.

The 1911 has been reliably for a hundred years and has proven itself in combat and LE millions of times over.

Randy

For those who have sent their guns to S&W, do they send you an email with a tracking # when the gun is shipped back or does it show up without warning?

My obvious concern is that that I wouldn't be in to receive it and it will take another trip to FedEx to pick it up.

Shipped to them on 8/24.
Gun was back on 9/2.

No apologies were made by S&W. Head of Perf Center said that since I did not ship back the bad plunger tube, they cannot ascertain what caused the issue. Well, heck, what are they expecting me to do ... catch it in mid-air while I was shooting for my state championship? I did not even see it fly out. So, that was it. I did not hear anything else from the VP level management even though I know for sure that my mail was forwarded to them.

Upon doing a field strip, I noticed that the way S&W staked the new plunger tube is quite different from Kimber. S&W really trimmed the staked rivets deeply after it is staked or their rivet endings are pretty short. I guess they do not want anything protruding out of the recessed rivet wells. My fear is that the deep trimming may be the cause of the weakened rivet. Just a thot ...

I know I am being paranoid here but once bitten, twice shy is a natural thing, I guess.

Just keep a eye on it and check it every time you go shooting. In no time at all you will see that all is well.
Randy

Will do, thanks for the thoughtful suggestions.

Incidentally, I noticed something else which I have doubts ...
What's the hole next to the external extractor? Is it supposed to be filled with something? I see the recessed area is devoid of anything. But, deep inside, there's a pin of some sort.

Question
Is there supposed to be a cover over the recessed area?

Attached Images

TopOfSW1911PC.jpg (39.1 KB, 16 views)

I have never seen it filled in any S&W....wouldn't worry about it. Include it in your pre-match just like a pilot does in the pre-flight. soon it will be just like the plunger tube and you will not be concerned with it but you will have the confidence in YOUR gun.

When we shoot in matches we are demanding so much more from our gear than the casual shooter so we need to be diligent in our inspection to head off a problem before it starts.

This comes from a man that broke THREE 1911's in one match in Idaho Falls. The club later awarded me a blue trainer gun as a Hard Luck Trophy and then said to me " Go TRY to break this one!!"

Randy

I just noticed that after they swapped the trigger, the new one is different from the old one.

The original one has round holes and I believe it is a Wilson Combat match trigger.

The new one has a more silvery color and has triangular holes.

Am I losing my match trigger?

Attached Images

	SW1911PCTrigger.jpg (59.9 KB, 11 views)
	TriagularTrigger.jpg (43.5 KB, 11 views)

Count your blessings!! that doesn't happen everyday......
Randy