I shoot in a LEO circle in a revolver and semi auto 50 round match once a month between April and Oct. its an accuracy match on a B27 target from 5yds back to 25 yds......all point shoulder.

The rules say duty type weapons are to be used.

Through the years I have worked my way up to their high master ranking and in this group are some fellows who like to bend the rules.

One guy I am told will not shoot all his rounds (18) from the 25 yd line to ensure a higher score. He was in the high master ranking this year.

Another one took a PPC 5906 5" and replaced the aristocrat tri rear with aristocrat adjustable (not the tri model) and replaced the front sight.

He shot this gun all year and completely annihilated the competition in high master field.

I shot a Springer Range Officer this year and did decent. My average in semi auto was 493 along with 2 other officers (shooting 1911s). In my opinion, this was good solid competition. However the one shooting the PPC 5906 averaged 497 for the year.

This puts a bad taste in my mouth.

I was about to send the director of this match an email but before I hit the send button, wanted to hear from those who had similiar experiences.

This person is part of the staff who runs this match and it has been told to me in the past by many of the competitors that they want me to beat him. It seems like many come up to me as they dont want to be the whistle blower.

I am not looking to throw a red flag or cause issues and I dont mind him using a tricked out duty type weapon.... as many do. But putting a true competition gun in a class for duty type weapons in my opinion is only ensuring a victory each time.

I know this PPC5906 has a modified trigger pull (meaning not factory SW.....very light) and with the tighter target sights in the right hands....this gun will shoot true.

your advice good or bad is welcomed. if you think the PPC5906 fit the duty type weapon catagory, let me know why.

I am not part of the staffing and they may ask me not to shoot again with them again if I anger some of them, but I want to level the playing field and for all to follow the rules.

thanks in advance

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if you're gonna be a bear...

You are an LEO - do the right thing and dime out the cheaters... the range master/instructor/officer can then make whatever decision necessary to be sure everyone follows the rules.

they are for most of us ...some people just gotta win, even if the game becomes secondary
id probably let it slide, then loudly congratulate the runner up as the winner among those with "duty type" weapons, leaving "super shooter" in a class by himself

My advise...
go ahead and beat him anyway

IMO once you start down the path of protesting and that sort of thing it just takes the fun out of it.

Ask him if you can shoot his gun for a round or two and see what it does for your score.

I understand the mild frustration of being up against guys I felt I couldn't beat. I never blamed equipment. Those guys were more focused and practiced more that I was willing or could afford in time or money. I was shooting 597/600 and those guys were shooting 600/600. the difference between a 597 and a 600 is really disproportionate. Those last three points are really hard to get.

I agree with Varmint. Just beat him.

I was in a similar situation and practiced my butt off and finally beat the cheater. It was really, really nice to watch the guy's face as I walked away from the line. To this day he won't look me in the eye and everyone else that knew what was going on gave me the thumbs up - in front of him.

I am on the fence.

I dont want to be labeled as a whiner.

I am a shooter and like the challege this match has to offer.

A couple of years ago I shot at a fundraiser match. I shot a 498/500 with my 1911. This particular match you could pay again to better your score in the area of more money for the benefit.

The same guy shooting a 1911 shot 8 times (8 matches) to beat me with a 499/500. He has to win. This cost him well over $200 in ammo just to walk away with the win.

I am going to speak to a competitor tonight who is close to the match director. I feel comfortable talking to him because he has made some comments along the same lines to me.

I think they are all disgusted but no one wants to say it.

I may just dry practice alot in the off season and see what happens next year.

keep the comments coming!!!

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if you're gonna be a bear...

IMHO the 5906 fits the duty catagorie. He only averages 4 points higher than yourself. I think you can give this guy a good run for his money. I would like to see what your club rules says about this. Keep us posted. As for the guy shooting only 18 of his rounds just bust him after he shoots while emptying.

A slightly different take would be to have everyone shoot the same guns that would be issued by the agency armorer. That would eliminate the race gun being shot as a duty gun.....

If the course of fire requires 18 rounds on target then make sure the range officer calls it as is...insufficient rounds on target 7...

For me , having been in a similar situation years ago on a smallbore league that a shooter was using a very illegal position in sitting and standing.....so the ultimate was to beat him doing it right and under the watchful eye of the NRA match director....after being beat soundly he never returned.

Randy

I don't shoot competition but here is my humble opinion.
I can see how it is not fair for him to have a racegun, and therefore how satisfying it would be to win against the odds while he is cheating.
But the odds shouldn't be stacked against anyone.
In a competition based on shooter skill using a gun with an extra variable is putting the odds in his favor, and defeats the purpose of a competition.
It's supposed to be a shooting match, not a David and Goliath story.
If it were a bar-none, anything you can afford, kinda match, shooting with a standard Springer against a tricked out play-toy and winning would seem much more satisfying.
Then again I don't know how these things work, so just keep trying to outshoot him if you want.

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27-2, 66-1, 640 Pro, 10-5

You have some week poo there brother.

You are shooting a decent quality 1911 and you’re complaining about the other guys equipment? Weak!

Do the right thing. Load extra rounds in your mags at the 25 yard line and make poor hits on the guy who’s holding back. Duh!

Btw, I’m a retired LEO. I was involved in more than one of these shooting on the other guys target for giggles. Usually head shots which counted as a miss.

And buy a .22 conversion so you can practice A LOT!

Emory

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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark

IMO the problem isn't so much "cheating" as it is a rule book that is too loosely defined. For example does your rule book state specifically that only original fixed sights are allowed? I suspect it doesn't because this competitor wouldn't pass tech inspection with his current pistol if it did. Same thing with the trigger pull on his pistol, you state it's "light" but if the trigger weight isn't defined in the rules it is perfectly legal.

Take a look at the IDPA rule book sometime. You'll find that there is a very long list of equipment or modifications that aren't allowed. That happened because IDPA has made a real effort to try and eliminate the type of "gaming" that leads to "race guns". Unfortunately, at the higher level of IDPA competition this type of gaming still takes place, however the "tuning" that takes place is a lot more subtle than it would be if the rules weren't so "tight".

I think that instead of accusing another competitor of "cheating" you instead initiate a movement to put in place a more ironclad definition of what a "Duty Gun" actually is. Something that addresses what sights may are permitted, trigger weight, magazine capacity or load, and specifics in terms of ammunition Power Factor. Point out that one of the benefits of doing this is that it will allow more competitors to shoot for higher rankings. Because to be honest here, allowing unlimited "race guns" into this competition means that the only way to achieve a higher ranking is by spending large sums of money on custom equipment that doesn't bare any resemblance to actual Duty Weapons.

The most telling part of your post was that no one else wants to blow the whistle, but they want you to do it (unless I misread this). Ask yourself "why" before doing anything else. Be careful, you may be getting "set up" here . . .

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I've got to go with Crofoot. Weak argument here. You are shooting a Springfield Range Officer vs a S&W 5906.
Even with a super deluxe trigger job..that you describe a "light." I cannot see how this can even start to compare to the 3-4 lb no creep trigger on the 1911. In addition to the fiber optic front and (basically) Bo-Mar adjustable rear sight. As I recall the Bo-Mars were THE STANDARD sights not that long ago.
Are you using old haji surplus ammo or what???
I'm almost afraid to say, if he is beating you with a 5906, Brother it AIN'T his equipment.

FWIW

Its a PPC 5906 which is not a standard DA/SA.

It is only available to LE when new.

SA only with a custom aristocrat tri rear sight. Match barrel with briley bushing.

It is based off a 5906 frame.

The rules only state duty type weapon with fixed or adjustable sights. Reduced power ammo is allowed.

I agree the rules are too loose. I have decided to address the rules when the time comes.

Thanks to all

these are images of the same model. it is not a duty weapon

http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...mb=fMeYQLR/6Ud
http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...mb=fMeYQLR/6Ud
http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...mb=fMeYQLR/6Ud

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if you're gonna be a bear...

How can somebody save shots to improve his score?
Is he firing extra at shorter range?
Is the scorer not counting the holes? (One big reason to change targets periodically is to eliminate the "one ragged hole" target.)
You "am told". What do you KNOW?

You will not win on the equipment definition.
It will be ignored or you will be marked as a party pooper.

What happens is they shoot a nice tight hole up close and the put the "missing" shots between the targets so as not to mess up their nice hole. Kinda hard to score a ragged hole. That is why in PPC we have to change targets between the 7 and 15 yard line so all the holes can be counted (or at least most of the outer holes of the big ragged hole) and remove any temptation.

What you need is a ref to watch and catch those inclined actually throwing shots into the berm.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

That is why several shooting sports use a backer target to prove that you either did or did not fire the required number of rounds. Usually eliminates the question totally.

Randy

Cheating is cheating and frankly I get tired of folks having to adjust their lives so these *******s can continually get away with it.

Man up! If you are a police officer then I suspect you have no problems enforcing laws that you might not agree with so call this guy out for what he is...a cheater.

I apologise for being so direct but fair is fair. If you get the boot for calling the guy out then what have you lost? Nothing and you will have gained the respect of some if not all of the shooters at the competition. What were you doing before you got involved with this competition? Its not like your family won't eat the next day.

Take Care

Bob

Now we know why Internal Affairs was created.

Why not just suggest you split the competition to people who shoot their duty weapons (the one you actually carry) and non-duty weapons. Then let Mr PPC shoot by himself in the non-duty weapon class. He'll come in first, but he will also come in last.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

A 5906 with an Aristocrat rear sight and a match bushing is a duty type weapon with fixed or adjustable sights.

You don't like it? Change the rules. Until then, your fellow competitor is not cheating.

Sounds to me like both you and the gentleman with the PPC S&W are "practicing". That is just unfair to the other shooters!

Speaking of the other shooters, are more or less cops joining your games? Why? What is the average shooter supposed to gain from these competitions? Many a shooting sport has lost touch with their roots while sqaubling over just such distractions.

Have fun with it, and don't worry about the other guy IMHO. When something that is supposed to be for fun, and relaxation turns into something that is chewing on you mentally it is nothing more than another stress additive in your life.

There will always be people who do not play by the rules, or angle for every advantage in life, but that is just what you would be resorting to as well if you drop the dime.

You are there to have fun, and do your best so do that, and don't worry about the other guy/s.

SW CQB 45: I am going to share a piece of wisdom i learned a long time ago.

Honesty is the best policy.

If you can beat him with what you got, do so. If not, another option would be to trick out your gun the same way he's done to his, and let them try and accuse you of cheating. That would call into question the 'fringe' equipment when you say "Geez... sorry, guys - I figured it was OK because _____ had all sorts of cool stuff on his gun so I was just folliwng his example." I'm sure it'll get the point across and you can then make the case to prohibit such contrivances.

Been there, seen that. The master class shooter who was running the matches using recoil reducers in his gun (thought nobody knew), letting the gun touch the barricade, not firing all his rounds and finding doubles that an NRA plug couldn't verify . . . best advice you've been given is to just cinch up the old belt and go out there and beat him. I never saw someone pour enough money into a gun where it won matches for them. I understand wanting the gun and ammo combo to do the very best it can possibly do, or as an old Bullseye shooter once told me, "if the post is in the 10 ring when I break the shot I don't want a 9", but even if he's taking some unfair liberties the differences are not enough to make him consistently a winner unless he already has some pretty good skills.

Be better - do better - want it more.

One morning years ago I was going to the range before and after work and practicing 6 days a week. There was a league championship on the line that I had won twice previously and was going for a third in a row. I woke up to a cold, drizzly nasty morning and told the wife I was just gonna bag it that morning and sleep in. She said, "Well, I hope (name deleted - my nearest competitor) likes your trophy" rolled over and went back to sleep. I got up and went to the range . . . and wound up winning the third trophy.

Motivation.

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Qui plantavit curabit

Cheaters suck. Call them out and then walk away from the game if you are not having fun. Ask the yourself following: If they are willing to lower their moral standards to cheat in a stupid game, what would you do when lives or real money is on the line?

8 matches to win one event............... seems that they should toss out the high and low for and over all average,to me.

Not shooting all his ammo............means a "Maggies Drawers" (miss) out here for uncounted bullet holes on a target.

Seems you need to tighten up the regulations and have the winning gun inspected after a match.................trigger pull,sights, etc.......to be a legal gun for the match.

Suck it up !!

IF YOU WOULD, A LITTLE CLARIFICATION PLEASE.
IS THIS LEAGUE FORMAL, INFORMAL ?
IS IT AN N.R.A. SANCTIONED LEAGUE?
IF IT IS AN N.R.A. SANCTIONED MATCH THE RULES ARE VERY FORMAL AND CAN BE EASILY CHECKED.
IF IT'S A NON NRA SANCTIONED MATCH IT CAN, MAY AND NORMALLY HAVE THERE OWN RULES. ASK FOR COPY OF THE RULES THAT APPLY TO THIS MATCH. IF THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RULES, YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT HE'S DOING. BUT WHAT HAS HE DONE WRONG? AS THE GIL HEBBARD TOLD ME MANY TIMES. "BEAT EM , BEAT EM AT THEIR OWN GAME AND BEAT YOUR FRIENDS WORSE"

Do I have this right? PPC 5906 vs a Springfield Armory Range Officer 1911? I don't see anything unfair. They're both accurized match guns. Good sights, match barrels, match bushings and fitting. Personally, I'd take the Springfield.

I still say if you are shooting together on a firing line at the same time you need to make some poor hits on his target. It's all in fun anyway, have fun.

Another ego stroker is to get a bunch of you coppers together and all shoot the same Glock Match. I earned some gloating rights over our firearms trainers that way.

Emory

If the rules say "duty type" there are loopholes. If it's a "duty" weapon, that is different. Even a Springfield Range Officer can be improved through polishing and fitting, and changing parts that do not violate rules. I would think a 45 acp would be a disadvantage compared to a .40 S&W, because of recoil. Have you settled on a load that minimizes recoil and is accurate? Being competative dictates that you must take every advantage that the rules will allow, I doubt Team S&W simply grab guns off the assembly line for production class.

I'm not in LE but I don't think S&W made the PPC 5906 as a duty weapon. Aren't these 5 inch barreled 5906s specifically made for PPC or marketed for PPC? If it's an "accurized match gun" it should be disallowed according to the rules whether or not someone actually could carry it on duty.

I think the guy who shoots the PPC is breaking the spirit of the rules but if he's not breaking any actual written rule then it will be difficult to do anything about it except out shoot him I guess.

No reason that you can't shoot perfect 500's with your gun. See it in your mind and do it. Only focus on the positive. Forget any and every shot that is not a 10. Remember what the 10 felt like and repeat it. Dry fire like a madman. Run through a perfect round in your head over and over. It will happen.

There will always be cheaters. If they can go home happy with themselves after cheating, they will never change and no one can change their thought process for them. Getting caught up with what others are doing in competition only impedes your success.

If these guys are cheating here, I wonder what else they are cheating at?

But is anyone? Just saying "duty type weapon" allows considerable latitude and neither the PPC 5906 or Range Officer were marketed as "duty weapons", they are/were both competition/match guns.

Unless there's more in the rules than has been mentioned I don't see a "cheater". Don't like the match rules? Change 'em, live with 'em or shoot somewhere else. IDPA is the only shooting sport I know of that has penalties for things that aren't against the rules but that the SO doesn't like, FTDR.

There is cheating in every sport, slackers in every occupation, worthless politicians in every government, those that can but won't work yet live off those that do, etc..... It is how some people are and they don't really WIN. It annoys the honest, hard working, rule abiding folks who will do the right thing regardless and are the true winners. Just have fun. It's a game.

__________________
"Know your sword."

If you aint cheating you aint trying!!!

Coming fro South Africa I have no idea what the competition entails, but I go with the attached quote.....at least in PPC you can measure your performance against yourself....
In RSA we do not have cash prizes so not winning is not a train smash....however there ar ALWAYS those who must win at all cost even if it means bending the rules
Enjoy you shooting and let the other guys conscience take care of him
Lol :

there seems to be a little whining going on about the gun, if it meets the rules and it sounds like it does.. let that part go!!!

now the shooting aspect of it is completely justified, if the guy is not shooting all of his rounds as dictated by the stages fired and claiming the score that is cheating!! if he is shooting between the targets, that is cheating, if he is shooting out of position and claiming the scores that is cheating.... if you have range officers, put one on him full time, he'll either get caught and be banned (hopefully for life) or he will get the message that he is not trusted and straighten up or he will be embarrassed and quit...

If his is not cheating and still beating you.... either practise and beat him, buy a better gun practise and beat him or let it go......

Try more practice. Those gadgets the other shooters have aren't helping that much. I leave all my handguns stock, and shoot pretty damn good for the distances you're at.

What are the rules ? Then go by them.

I once shot in a local gun club league, suppose to be CCW guns only. I show up with my 2 1/8" model 60 J frame. Others showed up with their 34 Glocks ,, or full size 1911's, etc.

Oh well, no money , no trophies involved and I got some good practice with my J frame.

Another time ( a long time ago) I was shooting in a bowling pin league. Auto class , no restrictions "run what you brung" and folks were complaining because I was using a Les Baer 1911 comp gun, high tech for the time.
The following month I showed up with a stock Springfield 1911 and set a new club record.

In both of the above examples , the rules were few if any.
Other matches I have shot in have rules on trigger weight, sight radius, modifications that are allowed, etc. etc.

Good equipment helps, but most of the time I think it's the nut behind the trigger that makes the difference.
Good Luck on what ever you do..

I've stumbled into this thread a couple of times and keep getting the impression that between the lines there are a few statements that have been left out.
"The rules say duty type weapons are to be used.'"
"I shot a Springer Range Officer this year and did decent. My average "
"Another one took a PPC 5906 5" and replaced the aristocrat "
Let's check the facts and do some guessing.
You did not say that your 5" target model was your duty carry.????
You are shooting against a 5" target..
Between the lines it sounds like you fit right in.
"This puts a bad taste in my mouth."
"Cheating Advice" --- thread title---
If you carry a 5" Range Officer as a duty weapon why can't somebody else carry a 5" PPC.????
If you don't carry it as a duty weapon , you have the correct title for the thread.

Hi:
Cheaters have alway been around.
Many years ago when PPC started (Police only) the rule was weapon and duty gear that the officer used for duty. It wasn't long before special revolvers and holster started being used by Officers that was with Agencies that was required to furnish their own weapon and duty gear. Those of us that had department issued weapons and gear suddenly were not in the high score catagory anymore. I considered the matches made me more proficent on duty and wherether or not I won shooting medals was secondary.

I've seen cheating on the range since the 60's.
People who cheat on the range, cheat everywhere else, too.

If they are cops cheating at target shooting, it makes me wonder what else they cheat at?

Beat this to death yet?

It has been a wealth of "cheating advice":

replace the aristocrat tri rear with aristocrat adjustable (not the tri model) and replace the front sight

modify trigger pull (meaning not factory)

use a true competition gun in a class for duty type weapons

brings lots of ammo and shoot the match as many times as the rules allow

use a very illegal position in sitting and standing

shoot a nice tight hole up close and then put shots between the targets so as not to mess up the nice hole. hard to score a ragged hole

using recoil reducers that nobody knows about

let the gun touch the barricade

don't fire all your rounds and then "find" doubles

Load extra rounds in your mags at the 25 yard line and make poor hits on competitors targets

Yep, lots of good info...

You should be shooting only against yourself. If you are so worried about his scores, what gun he shoots, what sights and all the other stuff about him or any other shooter, you are not shooting to your full potential and will probably loose. The only person that can beat you is yourself.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

How about doing it the old fashion way, with practice and hard work.