A question for SASS competitors, particularly R.O's

It has been some time since I shot any SASS matches, although I maintain my interest in the sport. Last year I accepted a nomination to the position of president of my pistol club.

In February our Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) section ran an open match. During this event several non CAS club members observed clear breaches of our national safety and range rules. These rules are probably particular to New Zealand and involve gun handling outside of dedicated safety zones and the firing line.

A query was made about these breaches to our national pistol shooting body before being referred back to the club to deal with. I am taking the view that we cannot do anything about what has happened but we can do something about what happens in future.

At our March committee meeting feeling ran high with our CAS shooters claiming they were being singled out unfairly. At our April meeting there were still issues to be resolved and tempers were a lot calmer. During this meeting two things emerged.

1. The NZ practice is that the R.O.'s control over a shooter ends when the direction to return to the loading table is given, but the shooter does not come under the control of the Unloading Officer until they reach the table, therefore the shooter is "not under the control of a match official" when walking from the line to the unloading table.

2. A point was made and not challenged that "Small things happen at every match" (club level), with the example being given of a regular visiting shooter to our club matches having to "be reminded every time and on every stage to go to the unloading table which they walk past".

I have spent several evenings going over the SASS Shooters Handbook and RO-1 Handbook. While it is accepted that the shooter is under the control of the R.O./T.O. during the course of the fire, the only reference to what constitutes the "course of fire" can be found in #5 of The Magnificent 7 (pg 16 of both the Shooters Handbook and RO-! handbook) which says that "Firearms remain unloaded except during the course of fire- loading table to unloading table (cold range).

My reading of this is that the "course of fire" is not over until the shooter reaches the unloading table, and that they are under the control of the R.O./T.O. until the reach the unloading table and come under the control of the Unloading Officer.

Are there any SASS shooters, particularly R.O.'s that can confirm this for me?

Last time I shot SASS was 1995 so my recollections are fuzzy, but I think I would refer this question to a more dedicated forum.

Forums - SASS Wire Forum

I am a SASS RO1 &2 (and will soon be an Instructor black Pin).....please clarify what they percieved infraction is.

Did the shooter leaving the line to the Unloading table actually do something? If so, what did they do?

As an RO/TO I make sure that the shooter is safely heading to the ULT.....I don't however escort them all of the way there to the table as I have to make sure the targets are reset, brass is picked up and that the next shooter is ready.

Is the problem that the TO did not escort the shooter to the ULT all of the way? That's what I am reading in your post.

Maybe I am miss-reading something, again please clarify for me.

Randy

growr said:

I am a SASS RO1 &2 (and will soon be an Instructor black Pin).....please clarify what they percieved infraction is.

Did the shooter leaving the line to the Unloading table actually do something? If so, what did they do?

As an RO/TO I make sure that the shooter is safely heading to the ULT.....I don't however escort them all of the way there to the table as I have to make sure the targets are reset, brass is picked up and that the next shooter is ready.

Is the problem that the TO did not escort the shooter to the ULT all of the way? That's what I am reading in your post.

Maybe I am miss-reading something, again please clarify for me.

Randy

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In NZ pistols can only be fired on club ranges recognised and approved by the commissioner of police. Every range has standing orders which state firearms cannot be handled except in designated safety areas or “on the firing line under the control,of an RO” as part of that recognition.

All firearms are to be taken to safety zones to be “unbagged” and placed in holsters or carts. The original infractions were the unbagging of both long guns and pistols and placing in holsters/shooting carts from vehicles in the carpark or other places outside designated safety zones.

When the club committee proposed erecting a sign with the standing orders wording, and that breaching the standing orders would result in DQ from shooting the match, our CAS shooters said they would not be able to shoot as they were not under the control of an RO between the line and unloading table, and from the unloading table to their carts, and they were carrying, or “handling” their long guns while not under the RO’s control.

Personally I feel the shooters are being obstructionist, pedantic and digging in their toes because one of them was match director at the event concerned and all are upset at the way this has been handled/their being caught out.

There are some other, political, matters going on in this country too right now that are impacting our sport.

I am hoping that we can resolve this within our club. Our CAS shooters have been given some leeway nationally to comply with SASS practices that other disciplines do not have, and which strictly have not complied with standing orders.

All they have to is to say that the shooter is under the RO’s supervision all the way to the loading table and the unloading officers control in the transfer from the UT to the cart, and they can carry on. If I can say “That is what SASS rules imply and that is what occurs elsewhere”, even if it is only observed in theory, then I think I can put this to rest.

ARE YOU KIDDIN' ME ?!

Talking about being "pedantic" & over-bearing, one of the many reasons I quit CAS around 2003. I'm an early CAS shooter, beginning in 1983 in Calif. When match rules won't let you place your firearms in gun carts at your car/truck, I'm done with that sport! Here in the States, IPSC is just as bad. Give me a break! It's supposed to fun!
Sure, safety is darned important, but not to the point of absurdity!
Hank M.

Thanks for the clarification. I kind of thought that was the concern.

Your description sounds like it was taken straight out of a USPSA/IPSC handbook.

Regarding SASS handbook, the only time a shooter may leave the line is when the course of fire is completed and all rounds are expended and accounted for....

now, if there is a broken, malfunctioning gun, that would be the only time a live round still in the gun/s would be allowed to leave the firing line and move to the ULT.

The moment they arrive at the ULT they are under the supervision of the ULT officer until such time as gun/s are cleared by the ULT Officer.

When the gun cannot be cleared because of malfunction or broken, the ULT Officer will tell the shooter to bring his case to the table and put the gun inside for a gunsmith to address.

Don't know if this helps or not....Hope somehow it does.

Randy

cart

Hang-Fire Hank said:

Talking about being "pedantic" & over-bearing, one of the many reasons I quit CAS around 2003. I'm an early CAS shooter, beginning in 1983 in Calif. When match rules won't let you place your firearms in gun carts at your car/truck, I'm done with that sport! Here in the States, IPSC is just as bad. Give me a break! It's supposed to fun!
Sure, safety is darned important, but not to the point of absurdity!
Hank M.

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SASS doesn't prohibit you from placing firearms in cart or holster away from a safe area..........
USPSA/IPSC however DO!

Randy

Yeah, the SASS are being obstructionist, but I expect they're also being extremely legalistic. Our term for those with that particular issue is "rules Nazi".

How is SASS obstructionist and rules Nazi's?

Randy

Hang-Fire Hank said:

Talking about being "pedantic" & over-bearing, one of the many reasons I quit CAS around 2003. I'm an early CAS shooter, beginning in 1983 in Calif. When match rules won't let you place your firearms in gun carts at your car/truck, I'm done with that sport! Here in the States, IPSC is just as bad. Give me a break! It's supposed to fun!
Sure, safety is darned important, but not to the point of absurdity!
Hank M.

Click to expand...

This is not in the U.S., it is in New Zealand where there have been a number of restrictions placed on firearms ownership in general in the last two years over and above those that existed previously.

We have lost the right to own centre fire semi-auto rifles larger in calibre than .22 rimfire or with magazines capacity above 10 rounds (for .22's), as well as pump action centre fire rifles with detachable magazines.

As soon as the semi-auto ban was announced one gun grabber publicly said "Now we have to go after pistol shooters who will take their pistols out of the safe and put it loaded on the bedside table for protection because they no longer have their AR15's". Up to then nothing had been said about pistol shooters, however since then we have had restrictions put on ownership of pistol carbine conversion stocks. Enhanced security requirements for transportation to and from ranges is coming into effect this year. There are rumblings about limiting pistol mags to no more than 10 rounds from within the sport. Pistols shooters are giving it 5 years before it is enacted.

We are about to lose control over range certification and issuing Standing Orders to the government, and we are facing increased scrutiny at club level by persons with only a partial knowledge of what each discipline entails.

When pistol shooting was first allowed here (strictly for training for Olympic and Commonwealth Games participation) pistols were single shot .22 and had to be stored in an armoury on the range (a gun shop for thieves). It took many years of work to get anything other than UIT/ISSF shooting approved, and then it could not be shot from holsters. Gradually the other pistol sports were allowed, but with the safety restrictions that still form part of our Standing Orders.

CAS is an outlier here, it has been allowed to operate under SASS rules, which require loading away from the line. It is the only shooting discipline that does so (pistol, rifle, shotgun). So far it is seen as "historic and not dangerous, just fun". But don't be fooled. The anti's will attack if they see an opening.

Unless our club CAS group sees this and agrees to some "technical wording changes", the end result could be that they will lose the right to load off the line altogether at a notional level. Remember SASS rules are the minimum. Where more tighter rules are in force it is those rules that apply.

Can you imagine the effect of every shooter having to load two pistols and a rifle on the line for every stage?

growr said:

How is SASS obstructionist and rules Nazi's?

Randy

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It is not SASS. It is our shooters. By digging in their toes, saying "That's not how we do it" they are being obstructionist and sticking to their interpretation of "the rules" hence the rules nazi's comment (I guess).

All they have to do is say 'Yep, the shooter is under the control of the R.O all the way to the UT and the UO to the cart" and the problem is solved. Yet they will not do that out of stubbornness.

Not sure I understand everything being asked, but the loading and unloading tables are considered part of the firing line. No weapons are ever loaded/unloaded unless at these tables, thus on the firing line. In SASS we always say “everyone is a safety officer” so anytime a competitor is on the firing line they are under the control of safety and or RO’s.

I know the RO has many responsibilities but each shooter is under their control the entire time on the firing line.

Dan

Kiwi cop said:

In NZ pistols can only be fired on club ranges recognised and approved by the commissioner of police. Every range has standing orders which state firearms cannot be handled except in designated safety areas or “on the firing line under the control,of an RO” as part of that recognition.

Click to expand...

I do see this wording as a problem when you also made the comment

All firearms are to be taken to safety zones to be “unbagged” and placed in holsters or carts.

Click to expand...

Does this mean that at the unloading table, pistols have to be removed from holsters and "re-bagged" and long guns removed from carts and also "re-bagged" each time? After the shooter leaves the unloading table, the shooter is no longer under RO control and is outside a safety area.

That does seem to be one way of interpreting it and I can see that causing frustration.

As for the course of fire, my old SASS recollection is that it started when I entered the staging area and the RO supervised my loading and preparing and only ended after the UO confirmed my firearms were emptied and all rounds accounted for. All points in between, I was under an officers control.

Does this mean that at the unloading table, pistols have to be removed from holsters and "re-bagged" and long guns removed from carts and also "re-bagged" each time? After the shooter leaves the unloading table, the shooter is no longer under RO control and is outside a safety area.

KIWI,

IS this the case in NZ or are handguns in holsters and longuns recased between stages?

If firearms are only handled in Safe Area/ Loading Table, how do you get them from the vehicle TO the Safe Area without violating NZ and Range rules?

Randy

growr said:

Does this mean that at the unloading table, pistols have to be removed from holsters and "re-bagged" and long guns removed from carts and also "re-bagged" each time? After the shooter leaves the unloading table, the shooter is no longer under RO control and is outside a safety area.

KIWI,

IS this the case in NZ or are handguns in holsters and longuns recased between stages?

If firearms are only handled in Safe Area/ Loading Table, how do you get them from the vehicle TO the Safe Area without violating NZ and Range rules?

Randy

Click to expand...

The unbagging is only required on first arrival at the range. All firearms are supposed to be transported in vehicles “bagged”. For pistols this requires a locked container. Long guns simply need a cover. From later this year all containers/bags will need to be secured to the vehicle frame by a lock,or chain. That will require a fitting in the vehicle and some way of securing the box or soft case to that fitting.

On arrival at the range firearms are taken to safety zones where they are unboxed/unbagged. Carrying a covered firearm to safety zones in not considered “handling” as long as firearms are covered. Pistols in holsters from the safety zone are allowed but they cannot be “drawn” unless back in the safety zone of on the line. Long guns in carts are allowed. IPSC rules require chamber flags. CAS guns simply require the action to be open.

At a speed steel event recently a boxed long gun was removed from the box on the line and found to have a live round in the chamber. A new rule for speed is guns must now be bagged/boxed off the firing line with a chamber flag installed.

Kiwi,

Thanks for the clarification....sounds like NZ stole their policies straight from the IPSC/USPSA manual.

I was at a USPSA match several years ago when a fellow shooter was given an unsafe gun handling infraction (DQ) for NOT leaving his handgun in the "Safe" area while he used the restroom!!!

His reply was that the safest place for his handgun was to be WITH him , not laying in some "Safe" area that is not monitored by an RO.

How is THAT for the rule Nazis????

Randy

The biggest things I would look at in SASS or CAS is RO training. For each stage you really need three ROs. One at the loading table, one on the COF, and one at the unloading table.

One RO at the loading table to ensures each pistol is loaded with five rounds and a live round is not under the hammer. The rifle must be checked for a clear chamber prior to loading and then that the hammer is manually lowered ALL THE WAY DOWN. No dryfiring must be enforced at the loading table as well as no guns leave the table except to go to the line as called. Pistols can be bolstered once loaded, but the contestants should remain within arm's reach of the loading table at all times.

The RO on the firing line runs the COF, dismisses the empty shooter, directs the stage reset, and calls the next shooter up. This person should count the shots and know that the pistols are expended before reholstering. The rifle is the only place where someone could load extra rounds during the loading process or COF, but it comes and goes off the firing line muzzle up HDEC or muzzle up with an open action. The shotgun starts empty and ends empty no worries there.

The unloading table is where you need someone who is a gun person and is sharp. They really need to have an intimate knowledge of how several types of revolvers, rifles and shotguns operate. They are checking to ensure that every gun leaves that table empty of all live rounds or expended brass. This is no place for a sloppy person as sometimes magazine followers get hung up in rusty magazine tubes. This is the last place to catch something before it goes back into the crowd with the carts. This is also where all malfunctioning guns are delivered as well as DQs so the potential for AD/ND is there. This table is ideally aligned with a backstop of good coverage.

A note about CAS and SASS competitors: This is the only area where I have seen people with no prior competitive shooting experience go from zero to playing a shooting game with four guns. Due to the financial outlay involved, they are often older and less mobile. It is essentially a multigun competition with less traction on the footwear, less mobility in the competitors, and less distance to the steel targets. Competitors can sometimes move positions with two handguns out of leather, so the potential to break the 180° plane increases. Crossover competitors from uspsa or even idpa are much better gun handlers in general than the homegrown CAS/SASS shooter.