The website says they only have records until 1967, but I have seen some of the fbi s&w 10mms with factory letters. Is there somewhere else that does historical letters after 1967, or are there some exceptions? I ask as I do have some s&w pistols (crpd model 60 and bhpd 681 .357) I would like to have something like that done in the future but orginally gave up because the website under FAQ said 1967 was the last year of records they have. Sorry if this question has been answered several times the website just made me think they don't until I saw the fbi guns.
S&w factory letter years?
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One of the SWHF officers may be along shortly, but my understanding and personal experience is that information such as a ship date and destination are almost universally available for every S & W firearm since 1857, and this is found in the letter of authenticity.
The "records" that are only available up to 1967 are extra documentation that might be uncovered with the "deep dive" search, such as correspondence about specific guns, service records or shipping invoices.
The "records" that are only available up to 1967 are extra documentation that might be uncovered with the "deep dive" search, such as correspondence about specific guns, service records or shipping invoices.
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This is why I assume as its under the FAQ"What years does the S&WHF have records for?
1920 through 1967.
What do the S&WHF's records consist of?
The records from 1920 through 1946 contain correspondence, invoices, and miscellaneous documents; records from 1947-1967 contain only invoices (including a few repair and refinish invoices), but no correspondence." But I've seen 10mms with letters documenting them as real?
1920 through 1967.
What do the S&WHF's records consist of?
The records from 1920 through 1946 contain correspondence, invoices, and miscellaneous documents; records from 1947-1967 contain only invoices (including a few repair and refinish invoices), but no correspondence." But I've seen 10mms with letters documenting them as real?
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To use your example, a 1076 ship destination to the FBI confirms it as a law enforcement gun. No extra records needed.
I just was confused because I thought they could only provide shipment records with the records they had based on their FAQs but it looks like they can for all guns s&w
This is a perhaps poor example of the material available (as it's a Registered Magnum), and they have what I'll call reams and volumes of information on those. This particular gun is an odd-ball because it's one of three identical units ordered by the same individual at the same time---AND it was ordered through a retailer---through a distributor---which was decidedly contrary to S&W's preference.
At any rate, nine different documents came back; starting with the original order form, the order from the distributor to S&W (after sitting on the order for TWO MONTHS(!!)), a letter from S&W assigning the registration number(s) 643, 644, and 645, a letter to S&W from the retailer (instead of the distributor) requesting the guns be fitted with Magna grips instead of the service grips and grip adapters originally ordered (and a confirming reply from S&W), yet another letter from the retailer to S&W pressing for shipment (because Christmas is drawing nigh, and their customer is getting antsy)---followed by yet another singing the same tune---and finally the invoice showing shipment on December 19,---and we're all hoping the guns arrived for Santa Claus.
The best/most interesting part of all this was information clearly showing S&W was doing their dead level best to cut the distributors and retailers out of the RM program such that S&W could retain the entirety of the retail price themselves.
It appears there was a "Come let us reason together"--OR ELSE meeting in late December between S&W and several distributors, where S&W decided it would be in their best long term interest to share the spoils of this program with distributors and their retailers--OR ELSE---and they all lived happily ever after!
"God bless us every one!" said Tiny Tim.
Ralph Tremaine
At any rate, nine different documents came back; starting with the original order form, the order from the distributor to S&W (after sitting on the order for TWO MONTHS(!!)), a letter from S&W assigning the registration number(s) 643, 644, and 645, a letter to S&W from the retailer (instead of the distributor) requesting the guns be fitted with Magna grips instead of the service grips and grip adapters originally ordered (and a confirming reply from S&W), yet another letter from the retailer to S&W pressing for shipment (because Christmas is drawing nigh, and their customer is getting antsy)---followed by yet another singing the same tune---and finally the invoice showing shipment on December 19,---and we're all hoping the guns arrived for Santa Claus.
The best/most interesting part of all this was information clearly showing S&W was doing their dead level best to cut the distributors and retailers out of the RM program such that S&W could retain the entirety of the retail price themselves.
It appears there was a "Come let us reason together"--OR ELSE meeting in late December between S&W and several distributors, where S&W decided it would be in their best long term interest to share the spoils of this program with distributors and their retailers--OR ELSE---and they all lived happily ever after!
"God bless us every one!" said Tiny Tim.
Ralph Tremaine
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Ralph
This is interesting. I have never seen anything like what you mentioned. Can you show me where you came up with this?
Thanks
Don
kwill1911
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Please provide the evidence for this statement. Given that the majority of guns shipped to dealers/distributors, and the S&W order form requested that orders be placed through dealers (see below), it doesn't seem likely.
Ralph, Kevin, and Don...The documents I have seen over the last fourteen years support the fact S&W preferred to go through their dealers and not sell direct to individuals. I remember a case where a person in the Boston area ordered a Registered Magnum and S&W asked him order it through a local dealer as the company was not licensed to sell to individuals in Massachusetts.
Bill
Bill
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Yep, although it will be more tell you than show you---as has been done here with copies of printed material.
In the beginning--------------
One of three guns ordered (from a retailer) by the same individual came to live here. Shortly thereafter a bunch of stuff from SWHF followed. The first item of interest is a Requisition For Goods from the distributor dated November 8, 1935. A little third grade arithmetic tells us their price (for three guns) is $47 each. That made my teeth hurt right off---given the retail price is $60---leaving a whopping $13 to be shared by the distributor AND the retailer as gross profit-----a losing deal for both first crack out of the box! THAT told me S&W was doing their best to kill any interest distributors and retailers might have in RM's. And the printed material noted up above suggests S&W was talking out of both sides of their mouth. But you can't blame them for trying.
Next up is several bits telling me the customer's order was placed with the retailer and onto the distributor on September 12, but arrived at S&W on November 8. My first and nagging thought thereafter was "What the hell was the distributor doing for TWO MONTHS during which that order should have been in S&W's hands?" I was left to my own devices to decide what they were doing.
I figured they were doing what I would've been doing if I was a distributor for S&W. I'd be on the phone/sending letters, or better yet telegrams (marked URGENT!!!!) to every other S&W distributor in the country, trying to build a coalition to go to war with S&W over this $47 business---especially since I'd learned it cost S&W $17 to make one of these things----and I'd learned the usual distributor price was in the neighborhood of double the cost to make any given item---give or take a bit here and there, because I only knew the cost to make two guns ($14 for a 22/40, $17 for an RM).
Time passed, and then I learned the NEW distributor price was $39----down from the punitive $47. Then I started wondering when that came to be. I was left wondering for quite a spell until I stumbled upon an RM shipped to a distributor December 24, 1935 (for $39)------my first one up there having been shipped December 19, 1935 (for $47).
AH-HA!!, says I!
That was where I might very well have screwed the pooch---leaping to the conclusion the shipping date had anything to do with the price----when common sense (which came up lacking in all the excitement) says the price was determined at the time of the respective orders-----not when the orders were shipped. Oh well, better late than never.
And that's the way it happened.
The bottom line/driving force of all this is I had long since decided the entirety of the RM program was an expertly designed and executed marketing plan to raise desperately needed cash---and it worked. Some of the bits and pieces started way back when I learned the 79 RM's sold in May, and the 136 sold in June amounted to 12.5% and 14.5% of S&W's total sales for the respective months----which said these folks were hurting---and the RM's were helping---more than a little bit! All of these varied bits and pieces coupled with an active imagination to cover any and everything else I didn't know the first thing about made for an interesting way to while away my time---and I wondered if anybody else cared about anything else besides the guns.
Ralph Tremaine
As an aside, while Kevin's copy of the order form does indeed note the dealers, mine (clearly an earlier one) does not-----yet one more little bit to add to the puzzle solving process. Having spent a goodly portion of my working life dealing with what I'll call "distributors" throughout the U.S., all of whom were always looking for a better deal, this later form from Kevin very likely came into being during the cuss fight as a concession to go along with the decrease in unit price. It is the way of such things----give a little, take as much as you can get---and NEVER give a sucker an even break!!
And as far as who S&W's market focus was in the beginning of their quest for cash goes, to whom do you want to sell your $60 gun-----the end user for $60, or a distributor for $47--and then $39?
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