Trying to diagnose the root cause of issues with the 15-22 on these boards is a great exercise. That being said, S&W has the resources and facilities to do this before they finish morning coffee.

Is it time to start flooding Springfield and Michael Golden's inbox with letters, faxes and e-mails inquiring what S&W is specifically doing to remedy this other than just waiting for their product to blow up in the face of their customers?

Perhaps someone well practiced with corporate correspondence might post a general letter of concern here for folks to print/copy? If we each e-mail, fax and snail-mail (and more than once) perhaps someone in Springfield will respond with more than a return shipping label.

Thoughts?

I wish there were a way to see what the true percentage is. I'm sure many thousands of people have bought these and don't feel a need to post on a forum.

That said, of course there should be 100% quality. My guess is the postage, cost of the rework, and the cost of the magazines they are including sends a better message than any number of letters would.

Normally agree with Phil, but tc has a very valid point. S&W has got to look at the cost of repair on the 15-22. I have no idea, but would think $50.00 per repair would be a starting point. So take $50 x number of repairs is loss to S&W. They will be looking to reduce that loss number.

Got to think someone at S&W also reads this and other forums to get feedback on this and other products.

i wonder if the overall failure rate isn't much lower than what we are seeing here. typically, people only make noise when something goes wrong. the average recreational gun enthusiast who isn't having any problems with the 300 rounds they shoot each year isn't likely to be a member here.

having said that, what does it cost to fix broken rifles vs. the cost of a recall?

Well I was going to buy a 15-22 to go along with my Remington 597 VTR,but I will just shoot my 597 and wait till S&W does a recall on all the 15-22. Until then I will keep reading and waiting. Thanks for all the good posts, keep them coming.

I maybe wrong on this, but you might be waiting a long time for a recall. Why should S&W fix something on guns that aren't broken. They are fixing them as they break.

If you want a dependable .22. get a Sig 522.

Well, Phil, I wrote a long, detailed letter to Mr. Golden that should have been on his desk (whom am I kidding?) on January 4, 2010 when they reopened.

On January 18, 2010, I spoke to the person answering calls for Mr. Golden and inquired about my letter. She stated that she had not seen it but would research it and call me back. I'm getting pretty hungry sitting by my phone.................

I have not experienced the great C/S that others mentioned. Early in this ordeal I talked to one person in C/S who said he would mail me a call tag. After 10 days I called back and spoke to Paul Remallard (sp) who sounded like he had some sense. He emailed me a call tag that day. I got the previously promised tag yesterday-a day after FedEx claimed that my rifle had made it clear back to S&W w/ Paul's call tag. (For you doubters, the postmark on the letter was 8 days after our conversation)

Feel free to start a campaign. It has been my experience, however, that employees act much like their superiors. You military and police folks know exactly what I'm talking about. Sloppy sergeant-sloppy troops. If the CEO does not care, then the guys on the shipping dock do not care either. Their stock has been in the dumper--any company dealing w/ armaments of any ilk that was worth it's salt should have really done well in the political environment of the last couple of years. S&W has sold a lot of weapons but the stock is waaaay down which indicates that the stock buyers (individuals, companies, mutual fund companies, etc.) don't think much of the company either.

My opinion is that the company is not well-run and the customer service reflects that. I am still a believer in democracy and plan to vote w/ my feet.

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... a little behind in my work

I just wish someone would acknowledge that there is or was a problem with the rifle and that they fixed all future releases. Not that it is a hard fix but these rifles should be perfect right from the factory for $400 to $500 each. I can't complain because I'm lucky mine hasn't missed a beat but it was purchased two weeks ago if that even means anything.

Information on how to launch an executive email carpet bomb. These have a high success rate of getting the attention of the guys at the top.

How To Launch An Executive Email Carpet Bomb - The Consumerist

If a problems keeps happening over and over then something is broke or it never was built right from the start, then recall and fix the problem at the factory before someone gets hurt.

My $0.02

There is no "perfect". Humans are not perfect and it is impossible for us to manufacture something that is defined as perfect. There is only an acceptable percentage of failure.

Yes if the problem is as wide spread as these forums would imply, then I feel Smith should do something pro-active rather than something re-active and they may, I just hope it does not require someone to be injured or killed first (see: Toyota Recalls).

Here are the details of the big folks w/ addresses:
SWHC: Profile for Smith & Wesson Holding Corporat - Yahoo! Finance

Here are the "insider" details of what the big folks bought and sold (mostly sold): SWHC: Insider Transactions for Smith & Wesson Holding Corporat - Yahoo! Finance

and here is a stock price chart from about 2000:
Smith & Wesson Holding Corporat Share Price Chart | SWHC - Yahoo! Finance

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... a little behind in my work

There is no way to tell what the exact number of rifle failures are. However, there have been forum members who have had their rifles blow up -after- they were forum members, or have had a second failure since joining. The odds of that are way beyond coincidence in order to believe that failures are of an isolated and infrequent nature. S&W's new threaded barrel model have already been reported to fail here. What are the odds? Way too high....

True, absent PR pressure and reputation concerns, a corporation has little motivation other than direct cost.

Okay Larry. --- I motion that Larry is appointed to draft a script to start the ball rolling.

Uh oh! That's why I always tried to stand in the back of the formation in my Army years.

The information I provided will work if it works at all. I never believed that a copied email or letter would do much-I could be wrong. I also believe that postmarks from all over the country w/ many styles of writing (profanity n/included, please) that include the basics (no 37 page dissertations, please) work better.

Simply:

To: Mr. Big-

I bought a S&W 15-22 last week. It repeatedly misfires w/ failure to load, failure to fire, failure to eject, and w/ out of battery occurrences.

I talked to customer service and:
a. nothing happened
b. nothing happened again
c. I sent my rifle in and it still does not function properly

I belong to xyz gun forum and half blast forum and often see similar complaints. (provide URLs here)

What are your plans to alleviate this situation?

A short version of your story:

a. I bought my 15-22 based on your century old reputation and I was mislead

or b: All my buddies were going to buy one but after watching mine fail to perform, they have scratched S&W off their lists.

or c: I have documented all the failures including the OOB experiences (no, not out of body) and am preparing suitable documentation for the Better Business Bureau and/or my heirs.

or d: anything you think yourselves.

Yes, email is faster but a postmarked letter from Buttcrack, KS or East Jesus, KY means more. No threats of bodily harm and no offers to burn the business down.

If it works, it works. Remember, that this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Maybe Mr. Golden is collecting the letters for the Christmas party next year so they can read them aloud and laugh at the morons-who knows?

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... a little behind in my work

Here's the beginnings of a Six Sigma project. Wonder if S&W have any black belts to run with this?

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- Change it back -

Forget the Blackbelts just bring in the full blown Q-A Ninja's! (sorry I just wanted to say Ninja) =)

Smith & Wesson
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
Telephone: 1-800-331-0852
Fax: 1-413-747-3317

Mr. Michael F. Golden
Mr. F. Spengler
Mr. A. Nichols
Ms. Ann B. Makkiya
Mr. John A. Kelly


Ladies and Gentlemen,


I recently purchased a S&W model M&P 15-22. I am quite concerned regarding the safe operation of this rifle. Reports of out of battery discharge are flooding firearm web forums, including S&W Long Guns Forum. Other chronic malfunctions include the bolt nearly ripping the round in half while jamed in the magazine. M&P 15-22 owners have reported their rifles returned repaired from S&W "Updated to Latest Spec" but soon again experience out of battery discharge with ejectors and extractors flying out of the ejection port. Out of battery discharge is a serious safety hazard.

I have contacted your customer service department to inquire what S&W is doing to remedy unsafe operation of the M&P 15-22. I was offered no answer other than a return shipping label. With all due respect, having the rifle blow up in my face "Updated to Latest Spec" as others are experiencing isn't of much interest to me.

Can you tell me what S&W is specifically doing to remedy unsafe operation of the M&P 15-22?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,




cc.

Chattanooga Rifle Club
P.O. Box 8951, Chattanooga, TN 37414

Sportsman's Indoor Shooting, Inc.
4824 Hixson Pike, Chattanooga, TN 37343

Carter Shooting Supply & Range
6210 Hwy 58 North, Harrison, TN 3734

Benton Shooters
6595 U.S. 411 Benton, TN 37307

way to go phil... i love it when people make a stand...or atleast get up off their ***.. lol

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07/SOT2
NRA Instructor

nice letter phil,
had my wife retype it and printed it and added my name and email to it, going out in the mail tomorrow morning.more should do the same and maybe we can get some possetive action started.

Guys, somebody should clue in comsumerist.com on this issue. If our story gets posted there, it will draw a lot of attention. It wouldn't be the first time a gun issue was covered.

Five-seveN Gun Blows Up In Owner's Hand, Manufacturer Indifferent - The Consumerist

Could also draw the wrong attention. Anti-gunners look for any reason to go after gun manufacturers. Just giving them more fuel. Is that what you want?

I think you're over thinking it.

Don't need to fix what ain't broke. IMO, S&W needs to fix the cause of the great number of OOBs. To address the cause after it has blown up in the shooter's face is at best less than responsible, and at worst a tragic story in the making.

Ya know..... Months ago there was a S&W Forum contributor who said she knew the inside story. She explained it was just a few rifles S&W rushed out the door in a hurry to meet demand. That was total BS. She turned out to be nuts and was ultimately banned from S&W Forums. Now we are seeing reports of the new model 15-22 having OOB. We tried to BS ourselves into thinking is was just Rem GB. Now we are seeing reports of OOBs with Win, CCI, Fed and Rem. I have read postings attempting to characterize OOBs as just a typical day at the range with any .22lr. That's just more BS. And of course S&W has never heard of any problems with the 15-22.

At some point... enough BS is enough BS. I reached that point. That beings said, I fully understand that others require more BS.

Now onto more cheerful discussion.... How bout them Saints! .

I'm beginning to think he's holding shares of SWHC.

Thanks.

I copied in the shooting ranges I frequent and where I purchased the rifle. If I had purchased the 15-22 at one of the large retail chains I would have included the local store and corporate headquarters. S&W can surely ignore a great many consumers, but I suspect it wouldn't take more than one large corporate retail inquiry to get the attention of S&W. It is possible that S&W corporate officers are unaware. IMO, it would be a good idea to make sure that possibility is eliminated.

Me too. When I didn't like the fact the Colt M4 .22s were breaking in half, I decided to move on to some other manufacturers offering.

Why risk you health with high blood pressure and lost sleep over a .22? Heart attack or stroke much more serious than an OOB that might happen. Just sell your 15-22 to someone else and move on.

Congrats on the Saints win. Too bad the game decided on a coin toss.

Who said they were?

Never should have been a coin toss. I could not believe how Minn gave up their last ***.

Yikes! Ever hear of copy and paste?

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NRA Life Member

Very well said.

I mentioned that I had sent a letter to Mr. Golden, CEO, at S&W previously. It would have been in his office on 1/4/10. I think I also mentioned that I had not received a response after talking to "Doreen" in Mr. Golden's office. She had told me that she would research the letter and see why there was nothing done.

When I get bored I tend to think which has gotten me into more trouble than tequila. Anyway, I called S&W at 8:00 a.m. EST and left a message for Doreen. No response. At 2:30 EST, I called back and she made the mistake of answering.

Yes, she remembered me but did not remember the letter. She said, no, they did not log correspondence. Anyway, she said she would have the Director of Customer Service call me ASAP. Well, he didn't call but Paul Remillard, the one that sounded like he had some sense when I first talked to him did. He told me that he had received my rifle and instructions from someone to make me happy. (Insert your own sarcastic joke here___________________________)

He went on to promise that the rifle would be functioning as it should when I got it back. Additionally, he was going to send me a sheet w/ approved ammunition information. He went on to tell me that the owner's manual was being changed to include this info.

As I understand it, all the problems are ammo related. I guess I could see how an OOB could occur if the bolt is not being thrown back far enough to be able to push the fresh cartridge home. Then, if the round should go off before the bolt is closed, lots of powder, smoke, fire, and gun parts go out the little door. I guess ftf and fte problems could occur for the same reasons-low powered ammo and it will not function correctly.

It seems that Paul is making a genuine effort. However, this is not my first rodeo. I still say this rifle is like a 6' redhead w/ a gold front tooth that owns her own liquor store: "She's purty but she's going to be a problem down the line".

__________________
... a little behind in my work

It's good to see that S&W has moved past stage #1 of denial and is now into stage #2-- blame someone else.

I am looking forward to seeing what ammo S&W will select to....

A. Properly install/align the ejector on new rifles prior to shipping.

B. Stack properly in the mag without so much fuss

C. Clear the mag without being bent in half by the bolt

D. OOB rate of occurrence that is similar to other modern day firearms.

F. Performs with MOA accuracy at 50 yards with a Match Grade Precision Barrel.

That would be one 'magic bullet'

To me, that sounds like CCI Mini Mags.
I haven't had any issue with the round since the beginning.

I am not trying to high jack the thread here but from the above and my retailer info, it might be worth a try.

From the retailer from whom I got the 15-22:

"I do know from past experience that CCI mini-mag 0030 w/ the copper coated lead bullet works best in all of my autoloaders."

From what I can tell, these cost not much more than what the bulk, non-firing, non-ejecting, cheap ammo costs. We've moved from about .06 a round to about .065 a round here.

These prices from 5,000 lot of each ammo on gunbroker.com.

Anyone else w/ experience w/ this ammunition?

__________________
... a little behind in my work

Taking a proactive approach on letter writing is a good thing. What's not so good in these types of situations is using regular mail. Almost any situation warranting interaction with a corporate office requires something like restricted delivery mailing. Yes, it is expensive ($4.50). This way, the next time you speak with Doreen it is from a better position : Gee, Doreen you signed for that letter for Mr. G on the ___ of Jan 2010. I don't understand why you're saying it's non-locatable. Now, may I please speak with Mr. G....

GOOD IDEA ! MY LETTER IS ON ITS WAY ON TUESDAY AND I JUST RECIEVED MY FEDX STICKER TODAY SO GUN SHIPS TOMORROW. I WILL SEE IF I GET A RESPONCE IF NOT I WILL RESEND THE LETTER AS YOU SUGGESTED.

Hi All,

I just became a member of the flying extractor club yesterday. Smith is sending me a call tag.

Here is my issue. I read my manual and no where does it say what specific ammo to use other than the generic statement.

I have many weapons and none say don't use this brand of ammo. Why would I want a gun that can not discharge any round that it was designed to shoot? I can understand some shoot more accurately with brand X or not feed properly due to bullet profile but OOBs are unexceptable.

It would make sense that the recoil spring pressure would be higher to handle higher velocity rounds. I was shooting Yellow Jackets (33gr/1500fps). Energy to cycle the bolt wasn't an issue. I only shot 11 rounds and on the 11th round "pong" flying extractor.