So I'm ready to pull the trigger on a Red Dot. I'd like something a little better than the chinese made knockoffs but don't want to spend Eotech money.

I've pretty much boiled it down to the Ultradot PAN AV although I'm still considering the c-more sights. The only thing I don't like about the c-more is that you have to buy a large MOA dot with it and then spend more money ot get a plug in module for the size you actually want. That rubs me thw wrong way.

Does anyone have any experience with the Ultradot Pan AV?

That thing looks just like the $30 NCstar red dot. I see them re-branded for a wide range of prices, but $200? Wow someone is ripping people off good.

Check out the TruGlo sights. They make a turkey sight that has a 3 MOA dot and their regular sight is 4 or 5 MOA. They usually come with snap up lens covers and the adjusters have nice screw on covers. I think they are a nice step up above the $30 sights. Shop around for them as prices vary.

Below is a link to Midway (with pic) for the UltraDot Pan-A-V selling for a whopping $200. Also below is a pic of my SightMark that I have had for a year or so. I purchased for $39.95. The SightMark has held up well and has the identical specs and functions as the UltraDot.

My guess is that UltraDot slapped on a sticker with a fancy name and gave it a lifetime warranty for a 500% markup in price so folks think they are buying something better than 'Chinese made knock-offs". Probably made at the same Chinese labor camp as all the others with different labels slapped on.... BSA, Sigtmark, TruGlow, Leapers... on and on...

UltraDot Pan-A-V Reflex Red Dot Sight 1x 33mm 4 Reticle with Integral Weaver-Style Base Matte - MidwayUSA

I've never heard of these things, but when it comes to riflescopes i can tell you japan makes stuff second best to germany. It does very strangely look like many of the china made ones out there however. Either someone decided to take their idea and make it into a higher quality item or it is just the same as the cheap chinese ones with some weird suppy chain process.

heres a very similar one in look and design. I can guess all the $40 ones are gonna be made in china, but i've never heard of the japanese one, more research would be needed.

Amazon.com: Firefield Reflex Sight (Red/Green): Sports & Outdoors

Several people at the range have the tube style red dots from Ultradot. I handled one and the quality was quite nice. What attracted me to it was that it (supposedly) is made in Japan.

I agree with everyone they look a lot like the sightmark red dots, although it's difficult to gauge if they are the same size etc. At 34mm the objective is pretty big for that style of open red dot. The sightmark I saw at the store was very small.

That Firefield is yet another re-branded, higher priced example. Don't kid yourself that any of these sights are "made in japan" or higher quality. Look at them. All the same sight, just different labels and prices.

The NcSTAR Red Dot Reflex Sight is $30.20 on Amazon right now with free shipping. Don't get ripped off.

Well, I took various pictures of theses red dots and viewed them side by side. Similar? yes, very. Identical? no

What does that mean? I don't know. But the other brands get cloned, why not ultradot? I know a fair number of folks at the gun club that swear by them.

I'm not saying you aren't right. Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

That's why I was looking for someone on here who actually owned one.

Anyone have any experience with the C-More brand of red dots then?

Something like this.

C-MORE Systems - Railway

A little over $200 seems to be your price range, have you considered a Burris Fastfire II with a riser? I put one of these on my carbine recently (real AR) and like it very much.

Do you have a real 15-22?

Yes I'd considered Burris. I saw a VERY nice Burris scope at the local sporting goods store and fell in love with it. It was $650 though, which was an outstanding price for what is normally a $900 optic. However, I've read a LOT of bad things about Burris' customer support and difficulties getting items warrantied. So I had kind of scratched them off the list.

The FastFire is the one I saw that was in my price range, but I've never laid my hands on one. What are your impressions?

I think the tube style UltraDots are a cut above. Read this.

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

My 15-22 certainly feels real :P

Interesting. Certainly sounds like Ultradot is of some quality. Although he only referenced tube style sights.

I'm not sure they'd risk their "Made in Japan" reputation to play it fast and loose with a Chinese product, but stranger things have certainly happened.

You forgot to link to your Sightmark.

I saw a sightmark at the sporting goods store. They couldn't get any of the demo units to work, so I gave them a miss.

Mine does too . It's just that Dragon88 regularly refers to his "real AR" in the 15-22 section but never read any postings about him having a "real 15-22". Just wondering what kind of 15-22 he may have?

How does one go about defining a "real AR"? Hmmm. hehe

I'd imagine that bagging about owning a 15-22 in the M&P 15 section wouldn't garner much in the way of respect though. <shrug>

Perhaps... but I'd not make a $200 bet on it.

Hm, I think I'll give them a call and see if I can get them to divulge who in Japan makes them.

I had to laugh. I was looking up their contact information. They are located in Yankeetown, Florida. hahaha

Dang if that ain't irony!

Maybe they round up all the yankees and make them live there. Kinda like a leper colony. :P

My under $50 sightmark works very well... I think, however, if I were inclined to drop $200 on another sight, I would find a lot of good choices from either Primary Arms or RRages... and rest comfortable in the knowledge that either seller would make things right in the unlikely event that the product turned out to be a ***.

Who knows.... they might actually assemble the Chinese made dime store parts in Japan. Not sure that's worth paying one penny more. I have a bunch of dime store optics, and all perform well for the intended purpose. Whoppo is right on target. When buying dime store optics of questionable quality, it really makes sense to be buying from quality vendors like rrages or Primary Arms. They are in the dime store optics business, know their products, and have a reputation for no nonsense service.

It's a whole lot better than anything mentioned in this thread so far. I've been very happy with mine and would buy it again. Keep in mind that it is a small sight, so get a riser for it. However, the frame around the lens is very low profile so it does not affect field of view during shooting.

So you're suggesting I should spend the same amount of money at companies that openly sell chinese goods but have good customer service rather than buy something that MIGHT be chinese from a company that also has good customer service?

:P

Have you had to deal with Burris customer service yet? I've read lots of bad things and that was kind of why I shyed away from it.

the fastfire is definately a quality piece.. the odds are you won't ever have to deal with their customer service because it is a better quality product...thats what you get for paying more. When you go cheaper, the likelyhood of needing that customer service is going to go through the roof. only thing bad i noticed is they are 4 MOA though. In all reality i would probably get an Eotech for the 1moa dot with 65moa ring. theres a new cheap model starting at $369 shipped. http://www.opticsplanet.net/eotech-t...ible-xps2.html

Or if you wanna scrap the whole idea.. get a vortex viper riflescope, they make some of the nicest quality pieces AND have the best customer service in the business..

cheap product: custome service > the item
expensive product : the item > customer service

I have an Ultradot Pan AV mounted on a 625 in 45ACP. The sight makes for a nice compact package. Now would I pay $200 for another one? I'd have to think about that. That said, I picked mine up at a gun show for $100 LNIB. I also did have a problem with this sight after about 6 months. The rheostat switch/battery compartment loosened up resulting in intermittent contact. This gun was set up for 200gr. SWC target loads, so it wasn't like I was beating it up. I sent it off to Larry's up in Maine, who handles the warranty work for Ultradot, and had it back repaired in about a week. That's one of the reason's that you pay a premium for the Ultradot products........the no bs lifetime warranty. I also have an Ultradot Match Dot on another bullseye pistol. I've never had a problem with that one.

Pro's for the Pan AV:
Made in Japan
Glass lens with superior coating
Nice round dot that I'm estimating is 5-6 minutes with sufficient brightness adjustment. I only use the dot, not the other reticles.
Lifetime warranty that I can personally vouch for.

I've shot with folks that use the Chi-com clones. The dots flare badly, and some don't have enough brightness on a sunny day. The NC-star version changes the point of impact when you change reticles. I would not waste my money on one of these.

Now if Ultradot would make a Pan AV with multiple dot sizes, like the Match Dot, I'd get another one.

Nikon Monarch Matte Finish Dot Sights VSD

Burris FF are typically mounted on handguns, sometimes shotguns, or mounted as a secondary optic with a magnified scope on an AR platform. Don't see many people using them as a primary sight on an AR platform.

The dot on my SightMark is about 2MOA and sharp as a tac. It does, however, fade out in direct sunlight.

It has 4 reticle styles with different dot sizes

Ultradot Pan AV Animation

Thanks for the information. I'm glad to hear form an actual owner. I know many of the people down at the gun club swear by them. But then folks on here swear by the chinese ones too.

I have to wonder though why more people don't own them, they seem to ride the fence between quality and price nicely.

CPTBreaker. Do you own this sight? Looks interesting. I was hoping to avoid a tube type because my two young kids struggle with getting a good sight alignment on tube type optics. I'm not sure how much of that's an issue with 1x magnification though.

No, but I don't foresee the sight failing anytime soon. The NC star red dot however most definitely failed within a week or so of me owning it. NC star has good customer service, at least via email, and gave me instructions on how to fix it myself. One of the problems I had was the exact problem mentioned above regarding the Ultradot sight. Like I said, exact same sight. Even if the customer service is better, is it worth $200? Not to me.

You can literally buy six NC stars for the price of one Ultradot and replace them as they break. Is that ridiculous? Yes. But so is paying $200 for a $30 item.

While it's unusual, I have found the FF to be a fine primary optic on a riser. A larger and heavier sight would provide me no additional functionality.

Yeah, the guy at Scheels (regional sporting goods store) said the same about shotguns for the burris.

I think i'll have ot go and press them to get one of the surefires working. Last time I was there they couldnt get any of them to work. Didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the product.

Bitbyte..............Now you are getting a little feedback from the owners of the Chinese copies. Pretty much everything I mentioned. I shoot bullseye pistol, and my group of shooters is probably a bit more demanding than most. Ultradot products pretty much rule the roost. I've been shooting red dots since the late 80's, so I've checked out a bunch of them. If you are looking for a very good tube style red dot, look no further than the older made in Japan Tasco PDP3. Tasco was one of the first companies to produce this type of sight. The Japanese made ones were of excellent quality. The dots are consistently round due to the good lens coatings. The polarizing filter that comes with these is actually made by sandwiching the filter between two layers of optical glass. Just like a proper pair of good sunglasses or a camera filter. You can find these older PDP3's on Ebay for $30-50 new in the box. Another reason I like these red dots, is that they have the widest field of view of any 30mm dot sight out there. They are even superior to the Ultradot 30mm sights in this regard.

I saw your link to the reticle display. What I am talking about is simply a choice of single dot size: 2-4-6-8 minute just like in the Ultradot Match Dot. Us bullseye shooters have no use for crosshairs, circles around dots, etc. If you are looking to do some "precision plinking", all you need is a sharply defined dot that is reasonably small. The human eye is naturally drawn to focus on a dot. Once you learn to see through the dot and focus on that X behind the dot, you are getting into the zen of bullseye shooting.

Keep in mind, that going cheap on any optical sight usually results in money wasted on ammo that is not being used to it's full potential.

Don't know anything about the PDP3, but I have three PDP2 that I have terrorized on 9mm, 45ACP, 223 and .22 for over a decade. They won't stop working. I was using one yesterday on my Ruger 22/45... And about a year ago I had one mounted on a the rare 15-22 Tacticandle edition.

Ever laid hands on a Pan AV?

If I understand you correctly the older PDP3 were made in Japan and then the later ones made elsewhere, presumably China. I looked on ebay for the Tasco but found no indication whether they were made in Japan or elsewhere, I can only assume they were not made in Japan. I did find one from Japan, used from an estate sale, but it's silver in color.

I agree about cheap products, I'm trying to find that sweet spot between price and quality.

During my research yesterday I came upon the Leupold Tactical Prismatic 1x sight. Model 63300. The illuminated reticle is etched on the glass rather than a red dot being projected there. I have an astigmatism and wonde rif I might be better served by this sight. At $500 the price tag is a bit hefty tho...

No I do not. I do own a Nikon Pro Staff 3x-9x and was impressed with the quality, performance, (and Lifetime warranty) of that product for a scope that cost ~$150. It has exceeded my expectations and I would suspect that the same would apply to the Nikon Red Dot. The reviews I've read have been very positive. If you want to go the non-Chinese/clone route and spend a little extra (~$240) you could realistically use this on a full size AR or other larger caliber weapon and have a good warranty for as long as you own it. When I decide to get a red dot, I'm getting this one.

However, there are many that are perfectly happy with the lower cost red dots from many different brands.

My three PDP2 are marked on the tube bodies (not just on the box) -- The one on the Ruger is Japan. The other black one is Philippines. The Silver one is Taiwan. They are all of the same era... 10-15 years or so. All three are identical in every way as far as I could ever tell. I have two $29 BSA RD30 both marked China. One I bought several years ago and the other a couple years ago. Ya know what... you could not tell the difference when looking through any and they all work fine. However, if you want to buy an honest to gosh goodness Japan made red dot and spend $200 for it let me know and I'll put my Tasco in the Classifieds... cuz my $29 BSA will do just as well as the made in Japan Tasco on the Ruger or 15-22.

ps. It's easy to overthink this stuff. Find something that you like the looks of... press the buy button and enjoy.

Not with the Ultradot Pan AV but with the Ultradot L/T. Nice, light and bright but they advertise it as having 2 and 4 MOA dots and its not true. Its a 4MOA dot. BTW it says made in Japan on the box but they lied about the dot size on the box too.

So how is the quality? It's my understanding that the quality of the glass and the coatings is a large part of the difference between the cheaper units and the better ones. Does it fade out when you take it outdoors? That seems to be a common failing on the cheaper units. How is the battery life? Also how clean is the dot?

I have three of them - one on a M41 bullseye gun, one on a M52-2 bullseye gun and one on my 10/22 plate rifle.

They are very bright outdoors. The dot on all of them is sharp but turns to a splat if I wear my iron sight glasses. With my contacts and safety glasses it is very sharp. The glass and coatings are very good but one of them I got had goo on the lens from the shock absorbing material they bed the lens in the frame with that I had to remove. The other two were fine but the bedding job on each of them was a bit sloppy but it does not interfere with the use of the sight at all. My main complaint about the units is that they are advertised as having both 2 and 4 MOA dots and they do not. When I contacted the company about it they didn't seen to care the marketing materials and manuals for them are incorrect. Overall I would buy another. The main reason I bought them was I had a nice Midway coupon and got all three for $600 including tax. They also usually get very good reviews.

I also considered the Pan AV but it was bigger than I wanted and usually avoid extra features - too much stuff to fail.

Photos of the sights mounted on my bullseye guns. I used a BME mount on both.

Photos of the 10/22 added.

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Thats pretty disappointing that they weren't interested in the product not being "as advertised". I bet a call to their state's attorney general's office would help them care.

Someone in here mentioned Vortex optics. Their warranty really makes me consider them. As they put it "We take your problem, make it ours, and make it go away"

"We will repair or replace your Vortex product for any reason at NO CHARGE TO YOU. It doesn't matter how it happened, whose fault it was, or where you purchased it."

They make a tube style red dot, I wish they had an open style reflex sight. Although I'm still looking at the whole "etched glass reticle" thing as well.

I'm going to Scheels tonight to look at all their optics. Hopefully they can manage to get one of the Sightmarks going this time so I can say i've actually seen one in action. They have the NC Star as well, I'll check them all out.

Stopped and saw the various offerings at the store.

I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised at the Sightmark units. Clear crisp reticles. Are the posted battery life times of 2-4 hours correct though? That's pretty short.

Conversely I would never EVER buy an Eotech. 4 of us all looked at a 512 they had there and the lines were just a bunch of connected dots. Not at all smooth. Not sure what the attraction is to be honest.

I'm meeting a local vendor that sells Vortex optics later this week to see the Strikefire and the SPARC.

Grim.

I picked up a Vortex SPARC from Ron at Jayhawk Optics, a local guy that sells Vortex Optics online. He was kind enough to let me come see it at his business before I purchased it. I'm not sure if I can post a URL for his site in here or not, someone let me know if it's ok (or not) please.

It was a tough choice between the Strikefire and the SPARC. The Strikefire has a 4MOA dot versus the SPARC's 2 moa dot, and the optics seemed a bit darker than the SPARC. The tint was a blue/grey hue, whereas the SPARC was a light greenish hue. I have no idea if the light transmission on the SPARC is higher or not, but it certainly looked brighter. Both my wife and the kids said the same thing about the optics when looking through it.

Vortex's customer service reputation, attitude regarding warranty and customer satisfaction and warranty are what drew me to them. (Are you listening Ultradot? No? You SHOULD be.)

Anyhow, if anyone is interested in seeing pics of an unboxing and/or how it looks on the 15-22, let me know. I'll update with impressions after I get a chance to hit the range.

-Tim

I have read that the way to avoid this problem is to always turn the "intensity knob" (on/off) in the same direction. Don't turn it one way to turn ON and then in the reverse direction to turn OFF. Once you have turn it ON to a certain intensity level (ie "3"), to turn it OFF keep turning the knob up through the higher intensity settings to go back to "0"/OFF.

Ok I have read this entire thread trying to find reviews on the Pan-a-v sight. I have read that this is a knock off of a NCStar or a bunch of other baloney. I finally found a review of the sight.
Here you can read it for yourself:
Desert Eagle 50 caliber handgun and Ultra Dot reflex sight: durability test Video
for those who don't want to, they put both the Ultra dot and the NCStar on a 50 cal desert eagle. Which we would all agree has a certain amount of massive recoil. After 50 shots the NCStar was totally trashed, junk, not usable for anything. After 100 rounds the Ultra dot was still going strong and the person doing the testing posted that if it did fail he would report it but it hasnt after a year of shooting. So I don't think that it is a re-badged NCStar. I looked in Midway Catalog and saw how much the holographic sights look similar, but if you think of how they are made and function, it would be impossible to change them up that much. There is my nickels worth.

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Grover Oathkeeper