want to change stock but live in NY

checkdalevel · #1 03-16-2011, 07:24 AM

Hey guys whats going on?

i want to change my stock to the the magpul CTR but live in NY.

so my questions are...

can i remove the original stock and replace it with the after-market stock as long as i put a locking pin in place keeping it from telescoping.

and anybody know how to remove the locking pin?

Practical · #2 03-16-2011, 07:36 AM

The 1994 Assault Weapons ban is STILL in effect in NY. (If this is a 223 this would be very clear.)

However, it looks like you want to modify a 22 AR-15 clone? The law "I BELIEVE" exempts only tube fed 22 semi-auto rifles. HENCE, no more clip fed 30 rounds 10/22 Rugers. (10 round only)

You are posting questions on how to commit a criminal act.

Face reality, in NYS the only way you can make a ASSAULT WEAPON is to have a Pre-1994 firearm to start with.

If your AR LOWER (serial number) is not a pre-1994 and was part of a fully assembled gun before 1994 you cannot do anything to create a BANNED assault weapon.

This is based on my reading of the law.

Furthermore if you hi-caps magazines are NOT pre-1994 you are also committing a crime.

AR15.com is a more likely venue for your questions, hopefully someone will tell you to wise up and grow up and learn to be realistic. Live with your neutered gun, move out of state or spend $$$ and buy a pre-ban 1994 gun.

Buy a pre-ban 10/22 ruger and look HARD for an ancient 30 round ramline clip.
If you are not a member of the NRA or the NYRPA you are part of the problem in NY regarding maintaining gun rights.

okstcowboy · #3 03-16-2011, 07:39 AM

I dont think he is trying to break the law just change the stock and have it pinned so it is legal

checkdalevel · #4 03-16-2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okstcowboy

I dont think he is trying to break the law just change the stock and have it pinned so it is legal

yeh.... my question am i breaking the law if i swap out the stock and pin it in place so its still a non collapsing/telescoping stock

i've read the NY gun law on wiki, but i was still unclear about my question above

Citoriplus · #5 03-16-2011, 07:46 AM

I'm not sure how the pin is actually put in there, whether its glued or melted in, or what its made of.
So you may have to just nut up and try drilling it a little to find out for yourself.
But here's a pic of it boltman put up a while ago in the 'good read for NY and other restricted state residents' thread.

Once you get it out you should be able to pull the locking pin down farther than the lever does to over ride the stop and slide the buttstock off the end of the tube.

Let us know how you make out, I'm sure there are a bunch of guys who have restricted guns who would be very interested in finding out how to change it.

PS, as far as breaking the law, its probably a technicality and unenforceable at that.
Everyone and his brother can easily and legally change the stock on any more conventionally built rifle.
Hell it only takes one screw on a Ruger 10/22 to change its stock.
So I can't see any police officer getting excited over a rifle that has a different buttstock unless it can collapse.
Besides as long as it can't move, and he has no probable cause to think its been used in an illegal action, no cop is going to even bother to question it.
And even then its even money a judge, even in NY is going to toss it out as a waste of his time.
Becasue as long as it can't move, your abiding by the letter of the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

The law "I BELIEVE" exempts only tube fed 22 semi-auto rifles.

It only 'exempts' the capacity of a tube magazine because they are not a separately removable and easily replaceable unit like a box magazine, all other provisions are applicable.

Foxtrot · #6 03-16-2011, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by checkdalevel

yeh.... my question am i breaking the law if i swap out the stock and pin it in place so its still a non collapsing/telescoping stock

i've read the NY gun law on wiki, but i was still unclear about my question above

The answer to your question is - No, you are not breaking the law as long as you re-pin the stock. There is no where in the law where maintenance or replacement of parts is illegal as long as the parts meet the legal requirements and do not change the weapon in such a manner as to violate the law in regards to the legal requirements for the weapon. Re-pinning the stock after replacement makes it legal again, if, you re-pin in such a manner as to fulfill the most current sold legal required condition - for example, if the pin was not made to be removable before the change, then you have to make it non-removable also after the change.

Also, you can have a collaspable stock in NY, but you have to make it non-collaspable the second its put on the weapon if thats what is required by law for the weapon. It is not illegal for an individual (who is not a gun related business) to posess parts (for reasonable maintanace or improvement use - in other words you can't stockpile parts like a business would) that may be illegal to sell in the state, its only illegal to use the parts on the weapon if the law does not allow it, without modifying those parts to meet the law requirements. So, if you can't buy a certain stock for example in the state, and some place will not ship it to you (they do not ship it to you because to do so would count as a sale and if its illegal to sale that part in the state then they won't ship it), it is not illegal to have a friend from out of state send it to you or give it to you (no trade or sale), Unless, there is a specific ban on that part being allowed in the state period. Just because the law says that you can not have it on a weapon does not mean you can't posess it. You can also give those parts away to another if you wish (if you know the parts will not be used illegally), you just can't sell them to the other individual if sale of those parts is prohibited in the state, unless the parts are specifically banned in the state period in which case you should not have had them to begin with. Also, legally, you can't trade those parts for something else either because its a transaction in which you receive something of value (to you at least) so its basically a sale, if the sale of those items is not permitted in the state. A collapsable stock by its self and not on a weapon is not illegal for an individual to posess (unless the intent is to use it for illegal purposes) and for legitimate purposes such as maintenance or replacement. Make sure the part is in legal form, function, and operation, for the weapon after any replacement or maintanance.

Temporary fixes or modifications to make it appear legal but are easily removed or reversed are also illegal. This means for your stock replacement, that you can not put in a pin that can be removed eaisly (like something you can just grab with your fingers and take out).

Someone else mentioned pre-banned, and there was another thread on New York, and technically; Its also illegal for an individual to use pre-ban parts to construct a pre-ban weapon if that weapon type is now banned at the time of construction - for example, you have a lower that was pre-ban but no parts in it, its actually illegal for an individual to fill that lower with pre-ban parts for the purposes of constructing a weapon that is now banned because in effect you are creating a new weapon. However, you can repair that weapon if such repair is needed, but, you can not modify that weapon to be another type of now banned weapon regardless of pre-banned status. They don't really pay a lot of attention to this unless it becomes a problem.

Someone mentioned about no one is going to be concerned over it, if its not legal they can be. If for example, I stopped you and found a weapon that was not legal, i'd arrest you regardless of my own personal opinion because thats the law. Courts might not do much, but by the time you put up with being arrested and any court cost and the hassel of court, you will probably have spent as much as the part costs or more and paid at least double for it. The way around all this is to simply make the weapon legal to begin with. Until the law makers grasp the concept of common sense and change the laws, make it legal, or move to a state, or store it and use in a state (like some people can do with friends in tri-state areas), where it is legal.

checkdalevel · #7 03-16-2011, 09:57 AM

thanks guys.. looks like i'll be getting my magpul stock at the show this weekend in harrisburg PA

Bulld4wg · #8 03-16-2011, 10:33 AM

It's threads like these that make me happy I don't live in NY or CA.

JCKoLnturn · #9 03-16-2011, 07:49 PM

The Nassau County District Attorney on Long Island in New York would disagree with much of Foxtrot's post. Her interpretation and application of the law is draconian. She recently sent the State Police to raid several local gun stores and arrest the owners after an undercover operation. She had issue with the gunstores making non-compliant guns compliant and then selling them. Her take on this is that they were not compliant from the factory so they never could be converted to compliant. The news also aired hidden video from one of the buys where the owner explained to the undercover that the stock on an M4 type rifle could be unpinned but that it is very illegal. It's amazing to me that the anti-gun liberals of long island and NYC are able to hold the rest of the state hostage to their very unliberated views on firearms.

A very simplistic view of unpinning and re-pinning the stock is that once you unpin it in NYS you've already commited a crime. If you unpin it in PA and replace the stock and re-pin and then bring it back to NY compliant, what can they do?

Foxtrot · #10 03-17-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCKoLnturn

The Nassau County District Attorney on Long Island in New York would disagree with much of Foxtrot's post. Her interpretation and application of the law is draconian. She recently sent the State Police to raid several local gun stores and arrest the owners after an undercover operation. She had issue with the gunstores making non-compliant guns compliant and then selling them. Her take on this is that they were not compliant from the factory so they never could be converted to compliant. The news also aired hidden video from one of the buys where the owner explained to the undercover that the stock on an M4 type rifle could be unpinned but that it is very illegal. It's amazing to me that the anti-gun liberals of long island and NYC are able to hold the rest of the state hostage to their very unliberated views on firearms.

A very simplistic view of unpinning and re-pinning the stock is that once you unpin it in NYS you've already commited a crime. If you unpin it in PA and replace the stock and re-pin and then bring it back to NY compliant, what can they do?

Strange, because thats the office I got my information from. I agree they are a little draconian in their view but not to the extent they are so stupid as to go after crimes that do not exist and invent prosecution simply for the sake of doing so. No, you have not commited a crime once you unpin it and remove it IF you are in the process of doing maintenance or replacement and then make the new changes or parts compliant and the changes not "eaisly removable". The intent is what makes it a crime. If you unpin it intending to leave it unpinned or intending to change it in such a way so it can become "eaisly" illegal, then the intent is to make the weapon illegal either by providing a method intended to circumvent the law or which violates the law.

The cases your citing are for gun stores where there was an intentional effort to circumvent or violate the law. The non-compliant/illegal thing you are referencing are cases where the weapons were made to appear compliant but the changes made were eaisly reversed, in other words they made them easily reversable on purpose intending to actually sell non-compliant weapons. Their intent and purpose was expressed in the manner in which they made the changes eaisly reversable. Then there is the matter that these were businesses for which their expressed purpose is to sell/provide firearms and they did sell/provide them, so their motive (financial) and intent was clear that they were trying to sell/provide non-compliant weapons, the physical manifestation of their act was actually selling/providing the weapon knowing they could eaisly be made illegal so the opportunity was also there because obviously they had buyers for those weapons, and obvously they had access by making the eaisly removable changes so they could intentionally sell a non-compliant weapon. Its a big difference between those cases and what this poster expresses in his question.

In this thread were dealing with an individual (not a business or manufacturer) which seeks to maintain or upgrade or modify their own personal property for their specific use and is not for selling/providing/supply to the public (hopefully) and is specifically seeking to maintain the legality of the weapon with the changes, there is no intent here at circumventing or violating the law and in fact the intent, based upon the posters words, is to maintain legality.

Your citing cases that have no bearing on the matter at hand in the thread because there is no intent at illegal acts displayed here by, and based upon, word of the poster, in fact he specifically expresses a willingness and intent to comply with the law for his changes where he says "...as long as I put a locking pin in place keeping it from telescoping" and that is legal as long as its not eaisly reversed to make the stock telescoping. Eaisly reversed is kinda broad wording I agree, but generally means - unable to remove or change without resorting to specialized or non-commonly available tools or methods and are physically permanent in nature, intent, form, and function, for the method applied. Had those gun stores done that, done the legal thing and not make it eaisly removable, you would not be citing those cases here because they would not exist because the DA would have done nothing because there would have been no crime.

There is a lot more to it then just a simple wording of a narrow portion of the law to determine legality. If for example, the poster puts the new stock on and does not pin the stock intending to, and does, go to the range first and test fire it, then yes, its illegal because he clearly had the intent to use the weapon in an illegal condition. However, if he changes the stock and then pins it back to a true legal condition (reference the need to make the changes not eaisly removable) in his own home and then goes to the range to test fire it then there is no illegal act or offense comitted. Its no different from having the weapon repaired if the old stock was somehow broken and a new legal stock being put back on for that repair. If a simple reading of a narrow portion of the law were applied it would mean that ALL weapons of this type, period, would not be permitted in the state at all because they all begin their life at the factory in a "non-legal" condition for that state during manufactur but before finalized for compliancy, and the poster would not have a 15-22 to begin with.

Technically, yes, by letter of the law specifically dealing with the definitions to allow an illegal condition for the weapon, but there is more to it then just a reference to a simple reading of a narrow portion of the law. However, the nature or intent or motive of the method help determine if its actually illegal or not, and that simply is not present based upon the posters words. Its simply maintenance or replacement, based upon the posters words, and the intent is clearly, based upon the posters words, to make it legal and as long as he does that then there is no illegal act. So I seriously doubt a "gun control ninja stike team" is going to be busting through his door.

checkdalevel · #11 03-17-2011, 10:30 AM

Thanks Foxtrot for that elaboration.

Looks like i will upgrading my stock. Now i just have to figure out where i can purchase a pin that looks like what the factory installed.

Juvicator · #12 03-17-2011, 07:17 PM

I really think the easy fix would be to order a colapseable stock and have it shipped to a state that is not communistic, then while it is in transit pack up all your stuff and move to that state. I agree with first post, need to vote or work out the dummies making the laws, but I'm afraid that might take a miricle.

JCKoLnturn · #13 03-18-2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxtrot

I seriously doubt a "gun control ninja stike team" is going to be busting through his door.

LOL I 100% agree with the above.

I will caution that the New York State Penal Law 265.02 (7) makes it illegal for you to merely possess an assault weapon. There is no mention of intent. The moment you remove the pin on your stock it becomes an assault weapon by definition. Technical or not this is the law. Obviously, the reality is that if you commit this act in the privacy of your own home you are unlikely to get caught by police or ninja's.

lone gunman · #14 03-19-2011, 01:48 AM

Question, I live in Pa where my 15-22/folding stock/25rd mag is legal. So, I always go to NY State in august on a camping trip for 3 days.I thought I would take my rifle with me but now I dont know if it would be legal to do so. OR would I have to mod it to meet NY law? Damn confusing gun laws.

Citoriplus · #15 03-19-2011, 02:00 AM

If a cop who knows the law were to see it, the threaded barrel, flash suppressor, 25 round mags, and collapsible stock WILL get you into trouble.

Each item I listed would count as an individual felony charge.
Sorry to say it but in my opinion bringing it along is just not worth the kind of trouble it could cause you.

If you really want to bring a rifle into NY, do yourself a big favor and pick something more conventional.

lone gunman · #16 03-19-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citoriplus

If a cop who knows the law were to see it, the threaded barrel, flash suppressor, 25 round mags, and collapsible stock WILL get you into trouble.

Each item I listed would count as an individual felony charge.
Sorry to say it but in my opinion bringing it along is just not worth the kind of trouble it could cause you.

If you really want to bring a rifle into NY, do yourself a big favor and pick something more conventional.

Thats what I wanted to know, Ill leave it and take my bolt gun. Thanks.

stevelee24 · #17 03-19-2011, 04:41 PM

The guy i just bought my M&P off in England was moving to new york and said that this gun is illegal there. This version does have moving stock and threaded barrel with flash hider.

But according to him it was outlawed there

Citoriplus · #18 03-19-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevelee24

The guy i just bought my M&P off in England was moving to new york and said that this gun is illegal there. This version does have moving stock and threaded barrel with flash hider.

But according to him it was outlawed there

He's right, it is.
But if he is in the military however and was allowed to keep it on base he may have been able to keep it as federal military installations are exempt from many state and local regulations.

occamasrazor32 · #19 03-22-2011, 11:55 PM

Ok good, so after all this debate, does anyone know to how remove the pin?

chaloots · #20 03-23-2011, 01:03 AM

i hear a 1/8th drill bit may work

occamasrazor32 · #21 03-23-2011, 09:51 AM

Haha, sounds good but how do you replace it?

Harrison · #22 03-23-2011, 10:35 AM

I am sure that the gun laws of NYS, are designed to make the citizens of that state feel safer, from violent crime, in their homes and on the street. In fact, I suspect the politicians that passed those laws believe that because of their laws, citizens are safer in their homes and on the street. They mean well and are trying to do good. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way.

I am happy not to live in NYS, where I am safe from evil assault weapons.

JCKoLnturn · #23 03-23-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by occamasrazor32

Haha, sounds good but how do you replace it?

You would need to get a new roll pin. Then you would need to drill a new hole into the receiver extension using the existing hole in your stock as a guide. The other more permanent option is to epoxy it to the extension. The upside of epoxy is that you won't have any annoying wiggle in your stock.