Bullpup V3

[Rundover]

Just completed V3, the final prototype version before the planned real actual bullpup is produced. If you have been flowing my progress you may see in this version a few changes.
The buttstock has a little less of an angle to it now and feels really good. It also easily forces the gun into a good natural firing position.
The front barrel shroud is taller now and can except a rail if needed.
Added quick disconnect sling mounts. They seem to work well and the rear mount will work from either side.
Added my cheek rest / brass deflector. Its a quick slip-on rail mounted design that can be adjusted forward and backward.
Added actual assembly hardware so now its just like it what it will look like.
And finely, added the internal parts. Yes, this means it is a functioning prototype capable of firing rounds down range.
At this point the only thing that I need to possibly address the the bolt catch. Up to this point I wasn't sure if I really need it but the last round hold open I kinda do like so I think I will see if I can incorporate it in before V4.

[Dirt Dart]

I'm very impressed! I will continue to watch your progress.

How's the trigger?

Nice work!

[shipwreck]

That is just wild. Wow!

[erick1987]

Very nice!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

[shawnr5]

Looks great. If the cutout in the front is sized for exactly one component, why not just have a similar grip molded in place and not force the purchase of an AFG?

[cjt50]

Getting better and better with each version. Including the bolt hold open would really be a plus.

Very well done!

Please continue your work, this really looks like it coming together nicely.

[Brett248Vista]

Rundover,

Your work is amazing! I really can't add more than that!

[Dezfan]

Looks promising!

[Lorelei]

I like it!

[OldEagleEars]

While it lacks the graceful lines of the original proposal, it has matured into a damn-fine design. The brass deflector/cheek piece is a very desirable addition that should also be useful when shooting with a scope. I agree that the slide release should be included in an easily accessible location (which will probably be harder than it sounds to accomplish). In all, you have developed a mature, usable improvement on your original design and one that should find a ready market among serious rimfire shooters. Congratulations! (Now, do you have a price point estimated for this thing?)

[Kayback]

That's looking great.

KBK

[stavman11]

let me know when ya wanna send it to ME for testing

Looks Great...... keep it up

[ravridge]

I like that, keep it up !

[Rundover]

Everyone, THANKS for all your thoughts and encouragement. I have to say that my biggest fear was that the trigger would be **** and ruin the entire project. I spent allot of sleepless nights contemplating in my head the best way to work the trigger. I have got to tell you that it has exceeded my expectations. It feels just like a stock 15-22 trigger and I haven't even done a trigger job on it yet. Also with the way I have designed it it will except any AR15 trigger, I'm excited and am going to try and shoot it next week.
Shawnr5, the original version had a built in forward grip, which I liked allot, but from advise of those on this forum it was changed to a rail which would except at least an AFG. Doing this gives you the option to mount anything you want. I have tried a pistol grip and also a bipod for use with my scope mounted on top. Options baby, options are good.

[63GMC]

Looks like I may have to buy a second 15-22. Just curious, what would you do for a serial number? Would it be legal without one?

[Rundover]

I believe the serial numbers were devised to keep track of the sale of weapons up until 1968 when it became law. One of the provisions in making your own weapon is that you can never sell it or give it away and therefore no serial number is required. I do think there should be some kind of mark to distinguish it as mine which brings me to my next thought.


What should I name her?

First thought was it's a bullpup so that should be part of the name like......

Bull-Pup
Bull-Ish
Wrecking-Bull
Rageing-Bull

You get it so what do you think?

[Lorelei]

The Raging-Bull is already taken by Taurus so you probably want to avoid it.

How about Bull-Puppy?

[cjt50]

Originally Posted by Lorelei

................How about Bull-Puppy?

Hmmm, 22lr,,,,,, Bull-Puppy,,,,,, got a nice ring to it.

[compshootfl]

I like "MAD DOG" Bullpup.

Please send all gratuties for the name directly to my bank. LOL

[brucev]

Just found this post. Extremely good idea. If there is some way you can incorporate the S&W lower receiver you can avoid having to deal with the issues of manufacture, serialization, etc. If that is not a problem for your possible production of this rifle, so much the better! Would be very interested in this sort of rifle if and when you choose to bring it to market. Will be following this and subsequent posts with interest. Sincerely. brucev.

[Lorelei]

Can we see a pic from farther back of you holding it ready to shoot?

[Rundover]

Hmmm, Bull-puppy sounds a little cute or wimpy.
Mad Dog is more like it and under consideration.
I was just thinking, maybe X-terminator.
brucev, you missed the original and v2 thread. The main goal was to build something that was a quick add on that would not alter the original 15-22. If the stock lower was used the buffer tube would have to be cut off. I do not need a serial # because it is home made. To sell this the lower would need to be an 80% finished lower which means the buyer would need to finish the remaining 20%. I have been looking at this and it actually looks like it will be fairly easy to do.
Lorelei, what, you want a farther away shot so you can see my true identity..... Hopefully the next pictures will be at the range when SHE gets test fired.

[Lorelei]

Hmmmm, that's a thought. But I really just want to see how it's going to look being fired.

[USMCHEROS]

How does that beauty shoot? Does it shoot like a gun boss?

[Dirt Dart]

Rundover:

If you will pardon a suggestion from a marketing guy......

There are a lot of 15-22's out there in the population. I don't know how many, but I would think the market for something like this at a reasonable price point would be rather substantial.

If your intent is to really tool up and produce and sell these in quantity, it would probably be best to incorporate a manufacturing entity and license it. The scope and size of your market would increase quite a bit if you produce a "drop in" ready to run product.

[Little Creek]

I am LH. Neat idea, but LH need not consider it.

[Rundover]

Marketing has suggested that I sell complete units. This thought has crossed my mind but the one issue that has stopped me from proceeding is that pesky $200 stamp that would be required to purchase it.

My thought is I would like to keep the costs down and at this moment an 80% kit with templates is looking like $250ish. A complete lower my run $300 and with the stamp your looking at $500. Its allot of money for a .22 lower with a wait for the stamp.

This is just my thought and I could be wrong. What does everyone else think?

[Lorelei]

Why would it require a tax stamp? Is it under 26" OAL?

[telero]

Originally Posted by Rundover

. . . the one issue that has stopped me from proceeding is that pesky $200 stamp that would be required to purchase it . . . a lot of money for a .22 lower with a wait for the stamp.

Originally Posted by Lorelei

Why would it require a tax stamp? Is it under 26" OAL?

I agree with Lorelei, this shouldn't take a stamp based on the previous information you've provided. The OAL is going to be over 26" when completed with a standard 15-22 upper that has a 16" barrel.

If you sell it as an 80% lower you shouldn't even have to get an FFL. If you do finish them and supply them complete, you'd need to get an FFL 07 manufacturer license (but not SOT 2 stamp for NFA manufacture), and probably pay ITAR registration as well. Building anything firearms related, you should probably be involving a lawyer (if you haven't already).

[Dirt Dart]

Originally Posted by Rundover

Marketing has suggested that I sell complete units. This thought has crossed my mind but the one issue that has stopped me from proceeding is that pesky $200 stamp that would be required to purchase it.

My thought is I would like to keep the costs down and at this moment an 80% kit with templates is looking like $250ish. A complete lower my run $300 and with the stamp your looking at $500. Its allot of money for a .22 lower with a wait for the stamp.

This is just my thought and I could be wrong. What does everyone else think?

I don't think this would be an NFA SBR. As noted above, just keep the overall length with the upper mounted longer than 26 inches. If it is shorter, I believe you have a problem even making it, without first obtaining the tax stamp. I could be wrong, but I believe you have to have the proper licenses to even prototype anything that falls under NFA restrictions.

[Rundover]

It is my understanding that if it is sold as an 80% no tax is needed but if it is a complete lower than you will need to pay a tax. The total length minus the flash hider is 26 1/4" so it is totally legal for me to make it for myself. If there is enough interest I would consider making them as a 80% lower or maybe even complete but still need to do more research on this.

[Lorelei]

Originally Posted by Rundover

It is my understanding that if it is sold as an 80% no tax is needed but if it is a complete lower than you will need to pay a tax. The total length minus the flash hider is 26 1/4" so it is totally legal for me to make it for myself. If there is enough interest I would consider making them as a 80% lower or maybe even complete but still need to do more research on this.

It sounds like you'll only need a regular firearms manufacture license since this isn't an NFA gun. I wonder how much that would cost. By being over 26" I wouldn't need a tax stamp to buy it. I would prefer to buy it as complete as I don't think I have the skill or tools needed to finish it.

[Dirt Dart]

Originally Posted by Rundover

It is my understanding that if it is sold as an 80% no tax is needed but if it is a complete lower than you will need to pay a tax. The total length minus the flash hider is 26 1/4" so it is totally legal for me to make it for myself. If there is enough interest I would consider making them as a 80% lower or maybe even complete but still need to do more research on this.

You would need an ATF Type 7 license to manufacture and sell complete lowers. Last time I looked (it has been some years) the license fee was $150 every three years.

If I had a good machine shop, complete with a vertical end mill, I might take a shot at finishing an 80% lower, but with the knowledge I would probably ruin a few figuring out the trigger pocket cuts.

[telero]

Originally Posted by Dirt Dart

You would need an ATF Type 7 license to manufacture and sell complete lowers. Last time I looked (it has been some years) the license fee was $150 every three years.

If I had a good machine shop, complete with a vertical end mill, I might take a shot at finishing an 80% lower, but with the knowledge I would probably ruin a few figuring out the trigger pocket cuts.

But you're still going to have to pay itar registration I believe, which is several thousand more dollars as a firearm manufacturer.

For completing a lower, this is plastic I believe, so our shouldn't be to bad of you have a good jig available. Depending on what is determined to be 80% for this, a dremel might be enough.

And since this isn't a title ii (nfa) item, no tax needed.

[Smithsrevenge]

That is INSANE! I WANT IT!.

I just read your entire 1-2-3 threads on this rifle and I'm laughing hysterically at the people who doubted you and ridiculed you for saying you could make this happen. PoooPooo to them + 10 Million to you sir!!!!!

[compshootfl]

I don't think he is making a firearm though....he is making an accessory part. A lower without a trigger is what I thought he was talking about. I doubt any license at all is required, I would ask another mfg. who does this to find out more info.

All I know is I just bought a stripped lower from Firebird precision and there is not even a serial # on it, now this is for an MKA 1919 shotgun but it is labeled as an accessory part right on it...just saying.

[Dirt Dart]

I really don't have enough knowledge to help on this one. If the lower is a serial numbered part, it obviously has to be transfered. If you replace a serial numbered lower receiver on a 15-22 with another lower? I just don't know. If the serial number on the 15-22 was on the upper receiver, then it would not be an issue.

[telero]

Originally Posted by compshootfl

I don't think he is making a firearm though....he is making an accessory part. A lower without a trigger is what I thought he was talking about. I doubt any license at all is required, I would ask another mfg. who does this to find out more info.

For the AR platform firearms, the lower receiver is the registered firearm. It's the reason anyone can buy an upper receiver from any dealer with no paperwork, but to buy the lower receiver you have to fill out the 4473. Doesn't matter if it's stripped or complete with the trigger group.

18 USC 921 (18 USC § 921 - Definitions | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute) defines a firearm as:
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

Since the AR platform has two receivers, the ATF determined that the lower receiver is the one that counts as a firearm. This can be different for other multi receiver firearms (FAL, SCAR for example) where the upper is the serialized firearm.

So in this case the replacement being made is a full replacement lower receiver and would be considered a firearm. If it was a case that went over the outside of the lower it would be an accessory.

Originally Posted by compshootfl

All I know is I just bought a stripped lower from Firebird precision and there is not even a serial # on it, now this is for an MKA 1919 shotgun but it is labeled as an accessory part right on it...just saying.

For the MKA 1919, the upper receiver is considered the firearm. Likely because it's incompatible with a standard AR platform lower. Here is the quote from the Firebird Precision web page (http://www.firebirdprecision.com/tac-12-receivers):
"This part is regarded by BATFE as an accessory so an FFL transfer is not required. The serial number that is followed for record keeping is associated with the upper receiver."

[Rundover]

Again let me clarify things.
From what I have read so far on the ATF site I can build a firearm as long as it is longer than 26" and isn't full auto. I can never sell it or give it away and if I die it must be destroyed.
The lower on this type of weapon is considered the GUN because it contains the trigger. All other parts are accessories. If I sell the GUN I will need a firearm manufacture license and the lower will need a ser#. The buyer will need to purchase through an FFL just like any other firearm. If I sell an 80% then no FFL is required. no ser# and buyer follows the home made rules just like me.

[telero]

Originally Posted by Rundover

Again let me clarify things.
From what I have read so far on the ATF site I can build a firearm as long as it is longer than 26" and isn't full auto. I can never sell it or give it away and if I die it must be destroyed.

Not quite correct. Since this receiver is being designed so that will be shouldered, it's going to have to count a rifle. When assembled with a minimum length barrel for a rifle (16") it will need to have an overall length of 26" minimum.

Since it's for personal use you don't need to serialize it or have a manufacturer's license. You can sell it, and you can pass it down to family or whoever if you die (at the federal level, state may be different). As long as you built it with the intent that it is for personal use and did not intend to sell it. If you build it with the intent to sell it you need a manufacturer's license.

Originally Posted by Rundover

The lower on this type of weapon is considered the GUN because it contains the trigger. All other parts are accessories.

It's not the legal firearm because it has the trigger, it's the legal firearm because the ATF decided it was. There are other firearm platforms where the upper receiver is the legal firearm and they still have a lower receiver with the trigger components.

Originally Posted by Rundover

If I sell the GUN I will need a firearm manufacture license and the lower will need a ser#. The buyer will need to purchase through an FFL just like any other firearm. If I sell an 80% then no FFL is required. no ser# and buyer follows the home made rules just like me.

If you sell the ONE you made for personal use you won't need the license. If you manufacture many for sale then you are correct in needing the license. For the 80% receivers, the ATF will have to determine what 80% is.

[Rundover]

Thanks Telero for help in clarifying this up. I did read that I cannot sell the one I made or give it away. I will need to look into this further.

[Rundover]

Went to the range today and test fired the V3 prototype.

Started out with one round to see if it would fire.
I loaded three rounds to make sure it would cycle properly and not go full auto. Hay you never know.
I then loaded half a mag and let her rip and did it again and then checked everything to be sure nothing strange was happening.
Finally went to full mags and dumped 300 rounds down range. The most fun I have had in a long time. Other than the fact the ammo was old ****** bulk Remington golden bullets and failed to fire about 20 times it ran flawless. Tried one handed with the butt tucked between my arm and side, two handed with the red dot, and iron sites. Yea, blasted away rapid fire. Trigger felt just like a lighter factory trigger.
Had a friend with me to try firing it and he did well considering he has never fired a rifle before. He also wasn't the best photographer but I am attempting to attach the link , hope it works.

M&P 15-22 Bullpup Part 1 - YouTube

M&P 15-22 Bullpup Part 2 - YouTube

[Lorelei]

OK now I must have one.

[stavman11]

Originally Posted by Rundover

Went to the range today and test fired the V3 prototype.

Started out with one round to see if it would fire.
I loaded three rounds to make sure it would cycle properly and not go full auto. Hay you never know.
I then loaded half a mag and let her rip and did it again and then checked everything to be sure nothing strange was happening.
Finally went to full mags and dumped 300 rounds down range. The most fun I have had in a long time. Other than the fact the ammo was old ****** bulk Remington golden bullets and failed to fire about 20 times it ran flawless. Tried one handed with the butt tucked between my arm and side, two handed with the red dot, and iron sites. Yea, blasted away rapid fire. Trigger felt just like a lighter factory trigger.
Had a friend with me to try firing it and he did well considering he has never fired a rifle before. He also wasn't the best photographer but I am attempting to attach the link , hope it works.

M&P 15-22 Bullpup Part 1 - YouTube

M&P 15-22 Bullpup Part 2 - YouTube

PIMP!!!!!!

when Can I order Mine??????????????????????

[Rundover]

Did you see, the brass deflector even worked also.

[cjt50]

oh your killing me, well done!!!!

You are officially a tease......

You set out to make this and are successful! WELL DONE!!

[Dirt Dart]

Very nice!

[bk42261]

Looks very cool, but didn't see where the mag release is located.

[noxin]

that looks badass.

[telero]

Originally Posted by Rundover

Thanks Telero for help in clarifying this up. I did read that I cannot sell the one I made or give it away. I will need to look into this further.

If I come across the information about being able to sell or give away the one you made I'll post a link to it...couldn't find an ATF source to cite right now. But I believe it comes down to intent.

Edit:
OK, I couldn't find the original ATF pdf they had posted dealing with home made firearms, but I found a couple other things. There were some questions asked in an opinion letter that were answered, but those are only applicable to the person that wrote in asking for the opinion. Here is the answer letter from the ATF:
http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF%...-%20Pg%201.jpg
http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF%...-%20Pg%202.jpg

Basically, you can build your own that's not for sale, and you don't have to put a serial number of the other required information on it that would normally be required. It is recommended that you do. If you do decide to sell/transfer it, again, it should not have been your original intent, but at that time you would need mark it with all the normally required information.

Question 4 in this ATF FAQ covers it. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fire...echnology.html
Specifically at the end of the answer:

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.