I'm old and slow ... how do you install the back plate and the screw without removing the paddle?

Update: Some have mentioned the bolt latch spring may be to weak. It is a light spring designed for just the bolt latch to remain UNLATCHED ONLY.It's the MAG spring that pushes the mag follower on the last round that is what forces up and catches the bolt latch up to the bolt, so you really have only ONE spring doing the deed, so to speak, it's the mags that give the latch & SBR the power to latch.

If you had last round latch up issues prior to installing the SBR, you may have more now that you installed it. So know your rifle's issues prior to adding on this device.

One note to those who don't believe in the SBR or BAD lever. It's not for everyone and it's not a device that is installed and magic happens with it. It is a device installed to speed up mag changes and assist in clearing jams when racking the bolt allowing your TRIGGER hand to stay in position NEAR the trigger during a gun battle. What is needed when this device is installed is TRAINING and muscle memory with more training. Add this together with the SBR and it saves time and lives in the field..

Like many (most?) accessories, it's not for everyone. For those who need it, it's great, I have no doubt. I may actually break down and buy one. It's certainly more useful than the takedown and pivot pins with extended heads on them.

In competition the BAD lever can shave hundredths off a reload. It could be the difference between first and second.

I'll probably be getting one. Does this failure happen with either a modified BAD ora 15/22 with an enlarged triggee housing running a BAD? Is it a problem with this design or trying to do this on a .22?

Remove the upper receiver and then mount the SBR.

But access to the back of the paddle is still blocked by the body of the lower. What Am I missing?

simply separate the upper/lower and the paddle is encompassed by the 2 pieces of the SBR and held together by a small screw.

as for last round issues, i never had any until i installed this item. i have since removed it until i get further follow-up from NDZ.

keep up the productive posts.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

the "thumb" portion is not blocked by the lower. that is where it attaches.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

I sent mine back on Friday and the guys at NDZ shipped it back to me today. I'd say that's pretty good turnaround. I won't be able to live fire test it until next week but I will update on the perceived fix when i reinstall it

DUH!!! It helps to actually look instead of depending upon my faulty memory! I said I was old!!!

no worries. i knew i installed it easily but when you asked, i had to double check ha. luckily i had it out to install beltfed's extended charging handle latch.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Well gosh...

Sounds like I was bang on...

what exactly have you contributed to this thread besides pointing out things that have already been stated and riding on the coat tails of others who criticized this product?

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Look guys, I was the first one to knock this thing and hijack the thread. I apologize because some of you are simply trying to work out your issues with the product. I understand that. I’m out.

Woady, I was not aware that you were the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable speech on this forum.

In fact, you are not.

The point of my comments, since you seem to have completely missed it, is that this SBR device is of debatable utility and questionable craftsmanship. The device, by your own admission, introduces malfunctions into a previously reliable rifle, the cure for which in my opinion (and again, by your own admission) is to cease its use.
Apparently these facts make you uncomfortable. However, I think it quite telling that your response to this discomfort is to attack factual comments that do not violate any usage agreements for this discussion forum.
I agree that this thread has run its course. However, do not expect me or any other member of this forum to censor ourselves just because our opinions might not fit with your particular view.
Obviously, if a forum moderator feels I have overstepped my bounds they are free to make that clear.

you're hopeless. no one has debated the fact that it has issues. we're simply trying to get them corrected while you carry on and on like the company should be dissolved and banished.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Ok guys, got my sbr back today, and it seems much improved. It looks like it clears the lower now that it has been milled a bit. I couldn't fire it (and won't be able to until next week) but I locked it open, slammed some mags home, bumped it around, etc and the bolt stayed open. Promising sign! I will update again when I hit the range next week. Thanks Paul!

good news. i emailed them this weekend and have yet to hear back...

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Dude, you've got no dog in this fight. You don't want to buy the product, don't do it. Too easy. The problems being displayed are NOT universal, and so your initial statements are already shot. Are you gonna start railing against any of the other aftermarket products that can introduce malfunctions? (1911 magazines come to mind...)

The BAD-type devices are a huge advantage to those of us that get paid to do violent things (as well as competitive shooters). Many 15-22 owners use it as a way to train for much less money. Many of those same people have a BAD-type device on the weapon they may have to use in the line of duty.

Try clearing a double-feed in the prone with out a BAD lever. Than try it with one.

Papachop, your right on the money..... But, many on this forum may not have the experience or ability to use the AR platform to it's fullest like some of us. Civilians enjoy it, lets say, differently. But posting the information can help if they are open to learning. The most they may get to do is punch paper or maybe hunt, both do not require some of the upgrades that have been designed to speed up loading and cycling of jams on the AR. Give them time, they'll come around..

I'll be testing my SBR this Friday, good to hear some of the guys have had their SBR working now... It's a fine addiction to my AR line of weapon and on my M&P, as you stated, saves me tons of dollars on the ammo. Keepem in the Xring...

Wow, very well said. A voice of reason I'm sure no one can argue with!

My 15-22 is my "fun gun". I defend my home with other weapons (purposely not specified). As a civilian, I have sought out, paid for, and been professionally trained with those to the best of my ability so far. Training is a forever ongoing process, beware the expert, humility is a virtue.

I also have many years of emergency response experience. I wasn't there to shoot, I patched the holes. Hence my desire to learn more!

thanks for clearing that up guys.

i still havent heard from them so i guess my next move is to call.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Hello Everyone, this is Paul from NDZ Performance. I’m sorry I could not get on here sooner we just created our account and had to wait for approval before posting.
We just got approval to post today at 7:01 AM.

We are currently looking into the issues that are coming up with the SBR.
Let me first say that we stand behind our products 100% and they all have a Lifetime Warranty against Material and/or Manufacturing Defects.

We will get the issue resolved regardless.

At this time let us address all problems the best we can.

We would like to clarify that a stock gun without our SBR installed can have the tendency to release the bolt if you bump the gun or Slam a magazine home. We have tried it numerous times on two different guns with the same result.

We took the spring out of one of our magazines so the follower would not engage the Bolt Catch and slammed the magazine home without the SBR and it will release the bolt almost every time. The weight of our current SBR is 8 Grams the same as a Bad lever.
The added weight of the SBR might make this happen slightly easier but this is still an issue regardless if you have an SBR installed or not.

Has anyone that bent and installed a Bad lever experienced any of the related problems?

The Last round Hold open Problem Could be related to:
1: weakened Magazine Springs from really used magazines. We have 4 magazines here for our gun and tried them all with no issues. This gun has had about 2000 rounds through it.
2: The surface contact between the bolt and the bolt catch is a wearable surface contact area. Worn surface areas can cause the bolt catch mechanism to be more easily activated.

3: After further investigating this morning we have noticed that our SBR can come in contact with the body reducing the travel by .010-.015. This may have an effect on the hold open depending on the Contact surface area of the Bolt and Bolt Catch.

Just to be safe we have already modified that area on one here for testing to fix that, and this modification will be added to all the new SBR’s in production. Any one with our current SBR that is experiencing this issue Please call us 203-439-7784 so we can modify your current SBR or replace it.

Someone mentioned about the Play in the SBR there really is no play in the SBR. The play is actually in the Bolt Catch but by adding the SBR it makes it more evident which might lead someone to think there is play in the SBR. If you take the SBR off, and just look at the Bolt Catch, all the play will still be there.



To sum it up:

Weight may have an effect on the last shot bolt open (we will address this in future runs)
Worn bolt and bolt catch
Weak mag springs
Body to SBR lever clearance (we made the modification)

So here is the deal. Please don’t worry we stand behind all our products and will take care of this the best we can. As soon as we get any more information I will update and post on here. In the meantime any feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated.

I can be reached via Email at [email protected]
Or you can call me at 203-439-7784 M-F 8-4 EST

UPDATE as of 7-12-12

Ok So I wrote this a week ago and I went again to the range yesterday. I have to say we are a bit puzzled because the problem seems to be with only some of the SBR’s not all.
If it was with all it may have been easier to identify and fix.

I tested my gun with some different mags from a friend and I did experience some failure on last shot hold open. Some mags fair better than others. So it seems to be a combination of things mostly it is the Mag springs have different spring tension tolerances.
I used some Allen wrenches and rigged my mag springs so they had more pressure and it held open every time.

Were we stand now is It has to be a weight issue combined with the spring tension.
So we are in the process of making it lighter we have removed 2 grams now and as soon as I can I will get to the range hopefully Today or Tomorrow and run some new testing.

We thank you all for being patient and am sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

We will keep you updated and like I said before We stand behind all of our products.
Feel free to contact me through email. Or by phone or on here and we will get you takend care of.

Special Thanks for the support from PMBSPYDER, w0ady, PapaChop, Aceman58,
PHXSHOTER, Juvicator, and Kayback and anyone else I may have missed.

Sorry we have not seen your email. Please email me direct at
[email protected]

Well, the "M&P" does stand for "Military & Police".

i talked to paul this afternoon on the phone and was just coming here to post an update but i see he's beat me to it. both my mags failed to hold open and i just received 2 new mags however ive already removed the SBR. after talking to him, my next step will be sending it back to NDZ and they will replace it when they have an improved model. paul was very friendly and informative so im willing to wait and try the replacement whenever it comes. this is just a fun add-on for me so i dont mind going without it for now.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Thanks for weighing in here Paul. I'm gonna run the one you sent back to me next week and I'll let you know how it fairs.

Update: Completed my testing with my SBR today, ran 475 rounds thru my M&P 15/22 with ZERO issue on the SBR. Again check your install and make sure it is installed correctly on the paddle of the stock bolt latch by pressing them together with a (taped nose pliers). You may not think that is much but remember I'm in Cali with 4 shorty 10 round mags, and 4 10/30 long mags, so you do the thumb math on reloading.. My thumb looks like a clones nose..

I even gave my M&P to my female Sgt. (who never fired an AR with a BAD or SBR) I gave her the basic "How to use the SBR", watched to see if she could make it fail, bottom line, she loved it and now wants one. I saw Paul's post and it's nice to see support for your product.

I'm a happy camper, we trained today using the M&P and it only had one FTL, using Federal 525 (wanted to use this ammo up). Ran some CCI Tactical and it never hiccuped, never... The product rocks. Good luck to all the others with issues, I will be looking weekly at NDZ for more great products in the future.. Thanks, keepen in the X ring..

Hey guys, any update on the SBR issues. I hope you all got it cleared up. As stated, I really enjoy this addiction to my M&P 15/22. I'm sad now because I really don't have any updates to add on to my M&P, this is a bad thing for now I am thinking of purchasing a new AR in the .300 Blackout bullet (check it out, an AR with a 7.62 bullet yea).

That thing has virtually no shoulder - and I thought a 7mm TCU (.223 necked up to 7mm) was bad.

Haven't been able to run the new one out to the range yet, but I haven't forgot about this thread. Will update accordingly!

i sent my original one back and have yet to get an update or replacement version.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Yea, but you can use all the 5.56 parts encluding the mags. I like that a lot...but that is for another POST... Thanks..

Update: so I finally got to try the modified sbr I got back from Paul at ndz. The thing held open very well and would not close by getting bumped or inserting a mag. However, last shot hold open was still only about 30% of the time. I talked to Paul about it and they are working on a skeltonized version. He's not sure what's up, as users have had different experiences. Some have no issues and some have a lot (me). Either way, he's going to update me in a week once he's beta tested the newest one. I will let you all know how it is if I end up exchanging mine for that one (or a refund if necessary). Paul and ndz are great to deal with, I'm looking forward to seeing the newer version and hope it works on my rifle.

I checked the NDZ store on Ebay and didnt see the new version there. I want to order one of these but will hold off until the improved version comes out. Keep us posted Paul.

i emailed paul last night asking for an update as i hadnt heard from him on the testing they were supposed to do last week.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Gonna have to try it ACEMAN's way,mine failed 4 out of 5 25 rnd mags,from what I can see just looking at it the screw is too far to one side in my opinion,I thought about using some very small washers inside on the screw to keep the back plate from wanting to open up on the opposite side

Just an observation ...

It would be very difficult to get the clamp screw more centered than it already is, from the looks of it. It's essentially the same as the MagPul BAD lever mounting scheme.

I'm curious to know if those that have modified the BAD lever to fir the 15-22 are having similar problems. I don't remember any discussion of this.

paul replied that he was going to ensure he made it to the range this coming week to test the revised version.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Ok Guys I went to the Range and ran some more tests on A SBR that we lightened to 5.5 grams the original one was 8 Grams. There are still some issues depending on what magazines I used. The problem seems to be the magazine spring tension. So I stretched the magazine springs in all my magazines and It worked. But I’m not sure that will be the ultimate fix. At this point this seems to be the only solution if you want to use the SBR.
Or you can take out the Bolt catch spring and clip it a little to lighten it up. I used 3 different kids of ammo as well Federal Bulk, Winchester, and some CCI.
Regardless of the ammo it was the same result. After I stretched my mag springs I was putting in 3 to 4 rounds in cycle them through the gun and the bolt held open every time.
My concerns is I’m sure after some time and loading the mags to 25 rounds full capacity you will have to stretch the springs again. I did put the 8 gram SBR back on my gun and ran all the mags with stretched springs, and the bolt held open with the heavier SBR as well.

There is all ready a known problem with last shot hold open and it has been talked about on this forum with stock guns. The problem seems to be the magazine springs and that fact that the surface contact area on the bolt and bolt catch is minimal.

At this time we are discussing if we are going to revise the SBR and make a version 2 that will be lighter.
This is an inherent issue with in the gun. So using our SBR can make the Last shot hold open fail more frequently. Then there are some that have no trouble at all.
This stinks all the way around and for the most part at the moment are hands are tied.
I will keep you guys informed as more things develop.
If any of you have any further questions you can call me at the office anytime M-F 8-4 EST 203-439-7784

thanks to you all for you support and understanding If you have one and it is just not working at all I will take it back no problem just contact me.

Paul

I will be out of the office until August 17th

Paul,

I don't think there is anything wrong with either the design or the weight of the SBR itself. It all seems to go to the follower pressure against the bolt hold open latch. If that IS the problem, nothing you are going to do the the SBR will solve the problem.

IOW, it's a 15-22 problem, not an SBR problem.

Thanks for the update Paul, I'll be in touch when you get back to the office. Enjoy your time off!

appreciate the update paul.

just have to decide if its worth messing with my mags to use the sbr as i bought just for a cool add-on.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Hey Guys We are going to do a version 2 of the SBR.
And lighten it up. Not sure yet as to when it will be done.
But we are not giving up on this.
Once again any questions feel free to call me or email me.
Hope everyone is well and getting some time to shoot.

Pauly

Be sure to post here when it is done... I will wait to get one of the new versions... Thanks

Mine came in this afternoon and it took all of three minutes to install. Hopefully I can get to the range tomorrow afternoon to run a few tests with it.

One thing I did notice on the bench, though. If you have one of NDZ's oversize mag release buttons on your 15-22, there is only about 1/2" of separation between it and the SBR lever. It will be interesting to see if during fast mag changes the SBR is accidentally tripped.

Paul, I will let you know direct what happens.

Hey Major if you have any that don't hold open or hold open weak mark the mag and later measure the bolt catch push rod on the follower. The one mag I had that wouldn't hold open every time had a shorter push rod than the others. Like .055 short, that may be some of the problems people are having.

Will do. Thanks for the reminder. I may measure them before I go to the range and segregate any that are shorter.

I ended up fixing it with fire. Well heat I guess. Slowly heated it and shaped it longer with flat needle nose pliers. Now they all work every time.

It took me a moment to understand what you were referring to.