Hi,
I am a new member and this is my first post...
First off love the forum, great info here...
Second, I get my M&P 15-22 on the 3rd (payday)...

My question is.
Can an optical sight like this Millet 1-4x24 DMS or any related type be set up to co witness the factory A2 sights ???
I would like a Red Dot, but I wear glasses and my eyesight isnt what it used to be...
Plus my 15-22 will be used for home defense, plinking and small game hunting... Thats the reason I want mild magnification...
There are only 2 small gun shops around me, so trying them out 1st really isnt an option...

Thanks in advance

You CAN'T co-witness irons with magnified optics to where the irons will be useful.

You CAN use the optic and leave the A2 front sight in place depending on your mount height. For example, I have a 1-4x24 with a Burris PEPR mount. My sights fold, but I've left them up to see if the optic could still be used and it can. On 1x you see a little ghosting of the front sight, but it's easy to tune out. Anything above 1x and the ghosting goes away, giving you a perfect sight picture. You can always take the sights off too.

BTW, the 1-4x24 is perfect for the .22lr. I can shoot critters at 10 yards out to 100 yards with ease (depending on the size of the critter). With gophers, I don't try past about 60 yards. Anything under 10 yards you want to use the irons or look down the barrel.


Welcome to the forum.

scopes cant co-witness because of the magnification.

if you leave the scope at 1x, you can use it for short range or remove it when at home.

__________________
od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

I kinda figured it would only co witness just at the 1x setting but didnt know if the front sight would just "blur" out at the higher settings...

I would like to be able to keep both iron and optic, just in case the reticle gives out... I can still be able to see thru the tube and use the iron sights as a back up...

BTW: thanks for the replies

While I see a lot of variation in scope mounting locations in the pictures thread, wouldn't a scope mounted forward enough to clear folding sights be a little far forward to get good eye position with the normal 3" or so relief? I know on my gun, I played with best scope position, and it came out pretty much over the back of my folded sight; moving it 2" or so forward would not be comfortable for me.

It depends on how you shoot. People who shoot nose to charging handle want it more forward. I don't so I have it covering my rear sight as well.

Here is my 15-22 with a DMS-1. I had it in a PEPR, but the VLTOR CASV-EL rail is higher then the receiver rail and I had to mount it in a set of mid-height UTG QD mounts. I'm using the same mount on my AR, for the Strikefire now, not the cantilever mount in the picture.

Try it first before buying. I don't think it will work.

I have a Leupold 1-4x 20mm scope. On the 1x setting, I CANNOT cowitness because of the magnifying optics built into the scope. The front sight is terribly out of focus.

The fact that I have it on the 1x setting doesn't bring the eye relief (distance between your eye and the eyepiece) out to infinity as on a reflex sight type sight used when co-witnessing. Although there isn't magnification, the magnifying optics are still fully in play. I still have to have my eye within the 3-4 inches.

Remember, in the optical path of a reflex sight (open or closed tube) there are no convex lense optics that do magnification. (Some units put a completely separate, self contained, magnifying optical assembly in close proximity to the reflex assembly. That unit would have to be removed to cowitness. Often the unit is on a flip away mount.)

Telescope magnification is determined by dividing the objective lense(s)focal length by the focal length of the ocular (eyepiece) lense(s).

Even if the zoom lense setup can actually let the ocular focal length mimic that of the Objective (and that truly doesn't happen often) to get 1X power, you still have two magnifying lense assemblies that would have to be able to focus clearly on the target in the distance and the front iron sight just inches away. Laws of physics don't allow that to happen in the focal lengths used in gun scopes.

Human eyes, with their relatively short focal length can do it (if the eyes are young and flexible, forget it if your eyes are old like mine...)

See that was my other question...
Eye relief...
I was taught and still shoot nose to handle...
In fact I shoot ALL my weapons that way...
I choke up, so to speak...lol
The longest relief 1-4x24 I found was the Hi Lux (3.5")
With out being able to see one, I know it will fit in front of the sight but would I get a full sight picture ???

Hate to say this but a red dot is about the best thing you can use if you use glasses and have eye issues. I have to use special glasses when shooting iron sights due to eyesight issues but I have no problem with any red dot with glasses on.

The answer is YES for even a 1X-4X varitable scope. But a few things have to be setup to allow it to work with iron sights. First the scopes for 1X-4X are pretty long, you would have to move it forward so your flip up BUIS sites can be flipped up in the rear. The front needs the flip down as well so when you go to 2X-4X magification you won't get a blurr in the optics.

It's harder to do this and still have thr correct eye relief to scope. I found it works better with just a 1X Red Dot with co-witness BUIS. I've installed the 1X-4X Leaper UTG on the M&P and enjoyed the magification but went back to the Red Dot for close CQB type training. Good luck..

I'd really like to see a picture thru the 1x-4x optic of the front sight being clear (as well as the target) in a 1-4X scope used to cowitness with BUIS combo. I don't understand how that can work based on the physics of the optics.

I agree completely, but wanted to clarify: If you need glasses to see far (like driving), like I do, you'll definitely want to wear those glasses when shooting with a red dot. If you need glasses to see close, DON'T wear them with the red dot (but you may want them to see iron sights).

My quite old eyes have trouble focusing, and I wear glasses for driving. When I went back to shooting, I tried wearing my glasses with iron sights, and while I could see the target more clearly, I had trouble focusing on the front sight. So I found I shot better with just shooting glasses (non-prescription). Back then I tried out a red dot, and not understanding the optics, tried them with just my shooting glasses, and they were worthless. Now I use my prescription glasses when shooting the red dot, and shooting glasses for iron sights. Works great! And if you have astigmatism correction, using them with the red dot is even more important.

Anyhow, just wanted to clarify about the glasses and red dot thing. For the first time, I'm able to see the target AND the sight clearly.

That 1x isn't a true 1x like a non-magnified optic.

+1 to the above. Also, most of the gripes you'll hear about a 1x red dot being faulty because it looks like a cluster of grapes or is otherwise distorted is usually due to the operators eyes, not the optic. A good test is to take the optic in hand and rotate while looking through it. When the distorted dot or clusters of grapes doesn't rotate with the body of the optic, you'll know that your eyes are the issue.

I'll see if I can take a picture of that distortion, with the Leaper UTG 1X isn't really NOT magnified, there is some distortion around the edge but you can see the fixed front site (slightly blurred). As you bring up the magification, the front sites vanishes but a blur is present...

I know they say Red Dots are 1x or non-magified, but they are really 0X. For the Leaper 1X-4X I think 1X is really 1.1X, although the center is clear the edge can become an issue with both eyes open using the scope as a Red Dot non-magification scope. Rumer has it the more expensive scope reslove this..... But I refuse to purchase a scope that cost more then my rifle, and this is not going to battle with me, just playing around and plinking..

If you're dead set on having BUIS with that scope, why not run 45 degree offset irons? Problem solved. Personally, I don't see the need to run BUIS with that DMS-1, but that's just me. (I have the Millet scope, it is not a true 1:1 and the eye relief can be tricky at times) Also, the 22 is not my defensive rifle, it's just a plinker. So in the unlikely event that my scope breaks from paper punching, I'll put it back in the bag lol.

They really are not 0X. 1X is no magnification at all.

The formula for magnification is the objective focal length divided by the eyepiece (ocular) focal length. If you use a piece of clear glass which has no focal length, then you would have a "meaningless or undefined" result which is what division by zero is called in elementary arithmetic. Since there is no eyepiece focal length, by definition you don't have a scope.

Magnification, when speaking in terms of telescopes, the term "0X" isn't used. You can have a telescope reduce the size of an image (look thru one backwards) so it might be 0.5X

(Reduction in size starts with a number less than 1 and does not go to zero. For instance, a .000000001X magnification would result in a very,very small image...think of processes like microfiche or the masks used in semiconductor processes.)

You are correct with regards to most scopes being really 1.1X rather than 1X.

Very few scopes with convex lenses (that provide magnification) are ever 1.0 magnification, they are usually slightly over like the 1.1X

That's why they are not good at cowitnessing with BUIS. Long focal length lenses don't concurrently focus well on infinity and on objects that are typically around 1 foot or less away as in the case of the front sight. Human eyes are short focal length lenses, when young, they do a pretty good job of rapidly focusing between close up and distant objects.

agreed jon. i thought about buying some cheap magpul pts mbus to add on for looks but honestly, anything besides my red dot or scope is just clutter on a range gun. if the battery dies, i have 3 more in my bag.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22