I was actually wondering the same thing. Thinking of doing as stated above with an HK 416 pistol, buffer tube and the sig brace. Short, fun, shoulder fire capable.

On a side, would using a full length carbine tube be different than a pistol tube. I'm wondering for the sake of legalities, as I have longer arms and moving the brace back farther would be helpful....

Which thread adapter would you use? I know there was a guy making them and selling them on ebay previously, but he seems to be long gone now. Short of a custom made one, do you know of any others?

First off, are you talking about adding a tube to the 15-22P or the 416 pistol? I had done some looking around for the 416 as well and couldn't find a buffer adapter for it either.

Second, a carbine tube probably wouldn't work with the Sig brace since the carbine tube has the channel for the adjustable stock and the brace has a round hole. A fixed rifle tube might (but not for me for some reason).

The Sig brace claims it will work on a 1.0-1.2" tube. I used a Rock River Arms pistol tube that measures 1.270" OD, and it was really tough to get the brace on (and off, I even used a little talcum powder to lube it up). I didn't actually push it on all the way, I'm not sure if the brace gets smaller towards the back or not. Also, only being about half way on the pistol tube, the brace was pretty solid...so length of the tube may not matter for you.

I also tried putting my A2 extension in the brace and it went right through and out the end without any resistance at all. That measures 1.10" OD, so the claim that the brace supports a 1.0" OD may be off. Or maybe I put the RRA pistol tube on first and stretched it out...I don't think so though since I had planned on using the A2 tube for the extra length. Also I had never pushed the RRA tube all the way through, and if the brace gets tighter in the back it still never got tight enough to grab the A2 tube.

The Phase 5 and Knights pistol tubes each claim 1.250" OD, so I would think the brace would fit best on it, enough tension to be useful, but not as tight as the RRA that you can't get it all the way on or back off.

Also, as far as length of the buffer tubes go, the RRA, Phase 5, and Knights pistol buffers are actually right at 7.25-7.5", about the same as a carbine length adjustable tube. An A2 fixed tube at 9.5" would be a better bet to get your length out there if it fit in the brace. I'd double check fitment before going that route.

I SBR'd my 15-22P and added a chinese folding AR stock adapter knockoff of the Law Tactical folding adapter. Using the sling mount from the 15-22P to hold the adapter in place I was able to add a buffer tube. I used a carbine tube and adjustable stock. Using the folding stock adapter added about an inch to the length. Not sure if one of those folding stock adapters could be installed on the 416 pistol or not.

My wife and I both have the 416. Have only shot a few hundred rounds through each of them. So far we both really like the gun.
No problems so far. They are under $500, look great, and run great. I have tried a few different types of ammo, and no problem. Also, really like the hard case. If the 15-22p ever came back out, i would still get one.

Be very careful with a standard rifle buffer tube on a pistol. The ATF says if one can "easily" put a shoulder stock on it, it falls into SBR territory. Even wrapping para cord around it or grinding the channel with the holes off of a standard tube gets dangerously close to gray area. "Easily" is a relative term, and not worth spending thousands in court explaining why you believe it's legal. I'd stick with a pistol buffer tube if you were going to go that route. Just my opinion though.


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-Dik

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These links are broken. Does anyone have the applicable regulations concerning the angled foregrip on a S&W M&P 15-22P pistol. Thanks...

Pete

I fixed the links in the original post...ATF.gov seems to have a way of moving things around from time to time.

You can always search for "ATF NFA Guide" and "ATF 2011-4" respectively.

There is no general ruling by the ATF that the AFG is not a VFG. Do a Google search and you'll find links to determination letters written to individuals. But the logic they use to make the determination is in those letters.

I picked up my 15-22 pistol a few weeks ago and had a friend turn an adapter for me out of 1" round bar to replace the sling swivel cup. I mounted the adapter and attached a cut down pistol buffer tube and a SIG arm brace, a Mako PTK AFG, a cut down rifle quad rail and a Mission First G27 grip. I still haven't had a chance to shoot it.

Well, this thread is going to get interesting again.

Because BATFE says so . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

One can build your own....

Both pic's are the same gun
The only parts that are S&W is the mags...

One can, but one shouldn't . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Did the Mission First G27 grip require much fitting to work properly?

Pete

Why not? The ATF is still saying it is legal.

KBK

Pete, the G26 grip bolted on like any other AR grip. Like any other AR grip with a tail, there is a gap. I am going to pick up a 308 filler plug and install it when I get a chance. I have a few other projects that are higher priority than a filler plug. The G27 grip was $19.99 at Walmart.

Scope Eye, is that a 4" TacCom upper? Good looking build. Boonie Packer magazine adapter?

And you never know when that's going to change, and all of a sudden you have an NFA firearm.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Would you kindly provide a link to the "308 filler plug". Thanks...

Pete

Magpul MIAD Pistol Grip Receiver Wedge AR-10 LR-308 Polymer Black

It is....

Both great products

Sweet. I've been eyeballing building a 22lr AR and leaning towards Taccom. I think my 15-22 pistol may help me stave off that urge. My Rem 700 and Savage MkII FV-SR will also help with it.

Negitive Waves....

Is there an ignore feature around here?
Your close to being on my list...

Think... Grandfather

There is. Feel free . . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Do you google?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fir...echnology.html

Q: Is it legal to attach a vertical fore grip to a handgun?

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, "a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…" Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

I used an AFG on mine to avoid being an NFA item. The Mako PTK ended up being very comfortable.

Isn't the lower the same other than the buffer tube? I don't know because I don't have one, but if so, a little fitting and you could throw a magwell grip on it and still be legal. That's the route I took with my 7.62x39 AR pistol. I was skeptical, until I tried it. I still have the GripPod on the 15-22, but if I get my hands on a 15-22p, it's probably the route I'll take.


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-Dik

Don't know if its been mentioned but an AR pistol measuring 26 inches or longer from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel not including muzzle devise can have a vertical forward grip. It becomes a non NFA firearm and is no longer a pistol with the VFG attached, remove the VFG and its back to a pistol. A 10.5 inch barrel and the kak pistol buffer tube put you over 26 inches on a normal 5.56 AR. You may need a little longer barrel on the 22lr.

Do you have a build thread on this? Or could you post a parts list.I would like to build one. Thanks

Which can be said of a million different ATF rulings. At the moment it is legal and allowed by the ATF. If they change it you can always Form 1 it then.

KBK

I have heard rumblings that the ATF is considering a re-ruling on the Sig arm brace from my LE friends. Too many people are using it as a stock and shoulder firing pistol ARs and flaunting it on youtube and other media. The ATF does not like when a device they approved is used to circumvent other rules.

They are talking about a modification to the design to require at least 1 inch of the buffer tube to extend past the brace or some other modification that would make it less than comfortable to shoulder fire. A recall would be required and a 1 year grace period will be allowed to allow owners to exchange their braces.

The whole thing is silly any way. What difference does it make how you fire a gun, or how long a barrel is? A better plan would be to scrap the entire NFA.

I always wanted a 15-22P.... Badly. They never were legal in NJ though. I would have paid the ridiculous money people wanted for them back then but they weren't NJ legal, then they went away.

I think someone must have convinced someone else in S&W there was a legal issue to consider or something (putting the P upper on the regular lower?) because it seems like these things were selling like hotcakes.

Bring Em Back Alive! baby!

They didn't sell here until they were discontinued. Once you can't get them, everyone wants them. Kinda like bricks of 22lr.

Well no one cared

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Vaya con Dios

And here is the new ruling:

ATF Contradicts Itself: Don't Use SIG Brace As A Shoulder Stock Without An NFA Stamp - The Truth About Guns

Mis-use of a SIG Brace can be costly. Be careful out their with all our silly laws.

It doesn't have to make sense, it's just the law.

It's seen all the time in the road cycling community as well.

I knew it was too good to last.

Not only costly but , jail time and you lose your firearms rights as a felon- AND, you never know when someone sees you doing it and decides to take action. The Range Officer that is always a not-nice-guy, decides to call the authorities and say, "Joe Blow was out here today using his SIG-Brace AR as a shoulder stock, " or that neighbor that you don't get along with, drops a dime, etc.

I knew from the VERY BEGINNING, this would not last. The ATF of all Govt organizations doesn't lose its battles. I hate stupid rules like short barreled guns etc. but that is the way they are, they don't lose and they make their rules as they see fit.

I live in Illinois and it seems that there is always an ATF agent at the range I use. He is a real cool guy but I don't want to take any chances of breaking the law. I had a magpul angle grip on the quad rail and a single point sling on the rear. Any range I take it too people are always asking about it being legal. I took them both off. I love this pistol but matey it's time to let it go.

And pay the fee? Don't think so . . . I don't mind it per se, but I don't pay that unless I set out to from the jump. I don't like surprises. As for the other rulings of which you speak, I don't see ATFE having any issues with revolvers, 1911's, normal AR platforms, Glocks, M1's, 94 style lever actions, or Mossberg shotguns. It's when you skirt the edge with the "might be legal" stuff that you can get caught with your boxers showing.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Let me know what you want to let it go for?

You might have to crop or resize the pic to make it fit upload criteria.

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Bishop

Price?
Location?
Original box etc?

OR you can go buy a cheaper less expensive alternate brand: Mossberg & Sons | 37235

Now I know this is no where near the quality of the S&W pistol, but its a similar design and a lot cheaper. YMMV

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Todd
M&P15-22 tweaked

Here is an aluminum free float hand guard on the 15-22P
Hmmmm. Wonder where you can get everything and the hand guard to do that conversion?

Attached Images

	15-22P-2.jpg (57.9 KB, 88 views)
	15-22P-3.jpg (58.8 KB, 83 views)
	15-22P-1.jpg (74.6 KB, 79 views)

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Buy cheap, pay twice.

Well I could not stand it any longer, I bought one of these for $189, will report on how it fires, I knew I would never pick up a S&W pistol for that or if I did would pay at least 3x's as much.

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Todd
M&P15-22 tweaked

Gun Broker has 1 listed @ $800.

Couple ?'s.
Can the fore grip be removed and be replaced with a Magpul or other after market foregrip?
Is the barrel threaded 1/2"-28?

Thanks
Gerald

I will let you know shortly the easter bunny made an early drop...

Attached Images

IMG_2832.jpg (108.6 KB, 118 views)

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Todd
M&P15-22 tweaked

News of the 15-22P's demise hasn't reached one LGS here...



This one followed me home yesterday, for $400...plays well with Sparrow!

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

/\/\/\/\/\/\

WELL DONE!!

Looks like fun!!

I was given this gun to me by my wife's grandfather in his will, the value of this I have no idea here in 2015, when it has been discontinued and this pistol seems very hard to find. Any help would be appreciated!! Thank you!