UPDATED: Why would the entire back of the round blow off?

[Lost Lake]

My son was firing the 15-22 and a round jammed. I cycled the action and the next jammed. Then I saw the shell casing in the barrel with no bottom. The entire rim had blown off.

It wasn't stuck in there, in fact I just picked it out with my finger nail. The casing slid right out.

The rounds were some old Federal's. They may be 20 years old for all I know.

Also had a couple more AD's. The gun is clean. My son is a little shook up about the AD's. These happen late, like he shoots ten shots then is bringing the gun down from his shoulder and it shoots again. I noticed a puff come from the chamber on this last one, like the chamber is partially open when the AD happens. And the shot sounds different.

The gun is completely stock.

ETA: Gun has been returned. See follow up post #28.

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[turnejm]

Sure sounds alot like "out of battery" detonations! If the round is not fully seated in the breech of the barrel when the hammer strikes the firing pin, the bottom of the round is exposed! The bolt recoil spring may be binding during the return travel "back into battery". This might explain the bolt not completely returning back into a proper firing position. Anyway, maybe a call to S&W might be in order, before someone gets hurt!

[Jyezahn]

Sounds like out of battery issues. Clean thoroughly, lube, and cycle the action to see if it's binding near the end. When you disassemble, make sure the bolt carrier rails are straight and the recoil spring is not futzed up. Clean the bolt face of any carbon buildup and ensure there is nothing obstructing the cartridge from seating fully in the chamber.

If all that checks out and you still have issues, contact S&W.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Agree with the others. Sounds like an OOB. This is a OOB pic from my 15-22.



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[Lost Lake]

Yep, that's what my round looked like except the entire back is gone, just popped right off.

So it's firing OOB, what is causing that?


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[RedNeck Jim]

Originally Posted by Lost Lake

So it's firing OOB, what is causing that?

Did you read Jyezahn's comments?

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Lost Lake

Also had a couple more AD's. The gun is clean. My son is a little shook up about the AD's. These happen late, like he shoots ten shots then is bringing the gun down from his shoulder and it shoots again. I noticed a puff come from the chamber on this last one, like the chamber is partially open when the AD happens. And the shot sounds different.

The gun is completely stock.

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Stop shooting it.

Call S&W for a return shipping label.

[growr]

Another cause COULD be excess priming compound inside the rim....years ago there was a lot of Eley Blackbox that had this issue....Eley replaced it immediately.

Randy

[Lost Lake]

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

Did you read Jyezahn's comments?

Yes I did. It doesn't change my question. Why would it be firing OOB?

It is new, under 700 rounds. It is clean. It has no build-up of carbon or anything. It is properly lubed.

So what makes it fire OOB?

It seems like it fires itself OOB, because he isn't pulling the trigger. So it's firing on it's own, and OOB.

I'll call S&W.

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[Jyezahn]

If it's clean, has no obstructions causing the cartridge to bind in the chamber, the most likely the reason it's firing OOB has something to do with the FCG, and the hammer is striking the firing pin before the bolt can get into battery.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Lost Lake

Yes I did. It doesn't change my question. Why would it be firing OOB?

It is new, under 700 rounds. It is clean. It has no build-up of carbon or anything. It is properly lubed.

So what makes it fire OOB?

It seems like it fires itself OOB, because he isn't pulling the trigger. So it's firing on it's own, and OOB.

I'll call S&W.

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The 15-22 suffered a ton of these problems during their first year of production. This Forum was flooded with reports of OOB and doubles. S&W never formally said what was causing these issues but they replaced the hammer spring (weaker) and bolt spring (stronger) and the reports here stopped for the most part. Search "blue springs" in this section and you'll get a bazillion threads with guys talking about the same problem you are experiencing. There is an inherent issue with this design in that the hammer will engage the firing pin when the bolt is out of battery. I think S&W changed the springs to get the bolt to slam harder and faster forward.

[micocyco]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

The 15-22 suffered a ton of these problems during their first year of production. This Forum was flooded with reports of OOB and doubles. S&W never formally said what was causing these issues but they replaced the hammer spring (weaker) and bolt spring (stronger) and the reports here stopped for the most part. Search "blue springs" in this section and you'll get a bazillion threads with guys talking about the same problem you are experiencing. There is an inherent issue with this design in that the hammer will engage the firing pin when the bolt is out of battery. I think S&W changed the springs to get the bolt to slam harder and faster forward.

"blue springs" are the new ones right ?

[RedNeck Jim]

Originally Posted by Lost Lake

Yes I did. It doesn't change my question. Why would it be firing OOB?

You have been given several possibilities but who knows? Only thing that matters is you have a very dangerous gun so please do as others have stated. Do not use the gun and since you state it is clean, send it off to S&W. I doubt they will tell you what went wrong but I bet it will be fixed when you get it back.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by micocyco

"blue springs" are the new ones right ?

Yes, S&W replaced the original springs with blue colored springs at the time. I don't know what color if any they may be using now.

[Majorlk]

Originally Posted by micocyco

"blue springs" are the new ones right ?

Yes, and they have been used for at least the last three years and the current production is still blue.

[micocyco]

Originally Posted by Majorlk

Yes, and they have been used for at least the last three years and the current production is still blue.

Thanks Majorlk, this is what I was beginning expect. Think you saw the problems I had with my first 15-22, could it be that Lost Lake & I got older guns & the parts that came out of mine were blown out by OOB ? I was at the range it was loud even with my ears on, all lane being used.
Can anyone tell the rifles with the old springs by the model # ?

[Majorlk]

Originally Posted by micocyco

Thanks Majorlk, this is what I was beginning expect. Think you saw the problems I had with my first 15-22, could it be that Lost Lake & I got older guns & the parts that came out of mine were blown out by OOB ? I was at the range it was loud even with my ears on, all lane being used.
Can anyone tell the rifles with the old springs by the model # ?

It is highly unlikely that your rifle had any older parts unless it was made two or three years ago and you bought it used. These firearms simply don't stay in the pipeline very long.

That said, considering what happened with your dealer and your rifle, I wouldn't trust anything they told you.

[micocyco]

Originally Posted by Majorlk

It is highly unlikely that your rifle had any older parts unless it was made two or three years ago and you bought it used. These firearms simply don't stay in the pipeline very long.

That said, considering what happened with your dealer and your rifle, I wouldn't trust anything they told you.

Same here, I was being as civil as I could with them & as things turned out I think they were just inapt. As I have said it is a new range & gun shop. I think doing the buy back & giving me the new camo one was as good as they could do at that point & I got the 3 range passes, the mag & a t shirt the wife wanted extra.
Still hard to believe they lost track of a rifle for 2 weeks
I do have some stuff that comes with it & will see how long before they ask for it.

[Majorlk]

Just make sure you get copies of ALL the paperwork involved with swapping the firearms.

[micocyco]

Originally Posted by Majorlk

Just make sure you get copies of ALL the paperwork involved with swapping the firearms.

Going to make a note to do that right now. Thanks again

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by bobermo

Would you have to be rapid firing in order to experience OOB given the description above under normal conditions? Obviously, damage to the rails could cause delay in the bolt returning to battery.

In addition to the spring updates, S&W also changed the firing pin to a shorter inertial design.

I think OOBs were more likely to occur during rapid fire but they were so common that I am sure they happened under all conditions. Folks were also having problems with the ejector not positioned correctly, and I believe that also contributed to OOBs. At that time, S&W began listing in their manual ammo not recommended for use... Remington Golden Bullet, Remington Target 22, Remington Thunderbolt, Winchester Wildcat, any and all subsonic ammo. // I had an OOB with HV ammo, and for the last couple years shoot nothing but subsonic ammo and haven't had an OOB since. So there ya go...

[DelFuego]

Could a loose barrel nut cause this problem too?

[MarkBrumbaugh]

Your firing pin may be the longer style. They shortened to firing pin to prevent OOB ignition as well. With the hammer down, it should not be past the recessed face of the bolt. Only strikes the round by inertia.

[Majorlk]

Originally Posted by MarkBrumbaugh

Your firing pin may be the longer style. They shortened to firing pin to prevent OOB ignition as well. With the hammer down, it should not be past the recessed face of the bolt. Only strikes the round by inertia.

If the rifle was made within the last couple of years, it is highly unlikely that it has the older style firing pin.

[Lost Lake]

I called S&W and got my return authorization, they took the serial number and said nothing. Ser # is DVA563*.

I am looking at the BCG if that is what it can be called, and the recoil spring is blue. The firing pin does not stick out beyond the face of the bolt when the back of the pin is pressed flush with the bolt. The rails are straight and there are no hang-ups as the bolt moves on the rails.

The gun has never had an issue during slow fire, only during rapid fire, as fast as the gun can go.

I'm thinking of sending it in dirty as it is now. Any thoughts on that?

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[JeffDeMello]

Send it in just as it is.

[Lost Lake]

My 15/22 came home today. The accompanying repair sheet says 'Replaced Bolt' so I called CS and asked if that was all that was done.

The rep said that's all he shows on his end. The bolt face was quite dirty and he said they do usually fire a complete mag full of ammo through the gun for testing.

Which may explain where all the .22 ammo has gone!


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[photoracer]

I did not buy my first 15-22 that initial year. I was using my Rem 597 during Ruger Rimfire events in 2010. I personally saw 3 15-22s have OOBs during competition. The funny part was that 2 of them were different rifles, but shot by the same shooter. It was at the 1st annual PSA Rimfire Challenge. The shooter had an OOB that blew the extractor right out of the ejection port. It broke the extractor I think. So his buddy offered to let him use his 15-22 as he had no problems. So when his turn to shoot came up he started shooting his friends gun and had another OOB which also blew the extractor out of the gun. Didn't hit me at the time but I am guessing he was a faster shooter than his friend.
I personally had 4 OOBs in my Remington 597 that year also, 2 of which left a bullet in the barrel. Both times I used a brass cleaning rod to pop the bullet back out the breech. And then checked the barrel and continued shooting. Whenever you hear a funny sounding round firing STOP immediately and check it out. You never want to just clear the blown case out of the chamber without looking to see if the barrel is clear before you shoot anymore. All blowback action rimfires can have an OOB if the timing is right, because the sear and trigger go into battery before the bolt can close. It has to be able to do that to function. OOBs can be caused by slamfires, bolt bounce, clogged chambers, or too rapid a firing sequence based on the mechanics and springs of the FCG. I don't think I have seen or heard of an OOB happening with an aftermarket trigger in the rifle. And with say a Geissele Super 3-Gun trigger you can fire the rifle at a much higher rate than you can with the stock trigger, even one with work on it. So it is not just dependent on how fast you shoot but how fast you shoot with what parts in it.

[Lost Lake]

Today I took the 15/22 out for a test run.

First mag full I had 6 fail to fire, light primer strikes. I had one blow back debris in my face (and I shoot right handed). Two rounds sounded really weird so I pulled the bolt out and checked the barrel both times.

Next mag, 12 FTF, light strikes.

Third mag, 1 FTF light strike.

Fourth mag no problems at all.

Fifth mag no problems, even rapid fired it.

I'm going to pull the bolt and see if there's something in the firing pin channel.

This gun is not making me happy. On the other hand I took my old Shield and two new ones I just got out with me and after the .22 ammo was gone I ran a few hundred rounds of 9mm through each Shield. Not a single hiccup.

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