General question about optics

[JeepWhisperer]

I know I could Google this question but where is the fun in that? That being said, I have always preferred iron sights to scopes on other rifles that I have owned or currently own. I am unfamiliar with red dot sights though. My main question is does the red dot sight require the use of the front iron sight as well, or does it replace both front and rear? I would like to try one someday. I just wonder if they are really a good new technology or just a 'fad'? I've been out of the gun game for about ten years and there is so much new tech and gadgets these days its overwhelming. I do own a 15-22 but also own a couple of M&P 15's in 5.56 as well. TIA!

[RedNeck Jim]

Originally Posted by JeepWhisperer

I would like to try one someday. I just wonder if they are really a good new technology or just a 'fad'?

Look at what our service members are using. You see any iron sights?

[JeepWhisperer]

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

Look at what our service members are using. You see any iron sights?

True. I have noticed this. The fact that the military is using them seems to indicate to me that red dots are superior for quick target acquisition but not necessarily accuracy. Plus I'm unsure of the front sight question. Like i said, I haven't researched it at all.......I just wanted a few opinions. thanks for yours!

[g8rb8]

I see these referred to as both red dot scopes and red dot sights. I'm not sure if there is a proper way to refer to them. To use a red dot scope you do not need the front or the rear sights. The little red dot hovers within the scope and you simply put the dot on the target (assuming it is sighted in). Red dot scopes have a few advantages over fixed sights. Red dot scopes have a benefit for older eyes compared to iron sights in that it will be much easier to focus on both the dot in the scope and the target. Lining up the single red dot on the target is easier than lining up a front and rear sight with the target. Red dot scopes have essentially infinite "eye relief" so they can generally be set up at almost any distance from the eye. On some firearms a red dot scope can be set up to "co-witness" with the iron sights. For example I have a red dot scope forward mounted as a "scout scope" on an AK-47and it also co-witnesses with the iron sights. It is very easy to shoot with both eyes open with a red dot scope. I find it is much easier to hit the target with a red dot scope compared to iron sights. Disadvantages of red dot scopes compared to iron sights are batteries (not all require batteries), added bulk, more complexity, and extra cost. I have tried expensive and inexpensive red dot scopes. My dad, another shooting partner, and myself have all had good luck and good bang for the buck with Primary Arms microdot scopes. We liked the first one so well we bought 3 others. On the other hand I was given a reflex red dot scope someone picked up at Cabelas for $30 (special promotion) and I could not get it dialed in very well. I prefer iron sights but red dot scopes work very well. I think they are a good "new" technology and a good tool and not a fad.

[JeepWhisperer]

Thank you g8rb8 for a very informative and comprehensive reply to my question(s). That is exactly what I wanted to know. Cheers!

[JaPes]

Originally Posted by JeepWhisperer

IMy main question is does the red dot sight require the use of the front iron sight as well, or does it replace both front and rear?

A red dot does not require the use of a front or rear iron sight. When I had a 15-22 I mounted a pair of Magpul polymer folding back up sights and a red dot. On one of my AR-15's I have a standard A2 front sight post, folding rear sight, and a red dot.

A quality, inexpensive red dot is a fun thing to have on a 15-22. I highly recommend a Primary Arms Microdot bundle.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-...-lhmbundle.htm

Here are links to a good budget dot comparison with some great information.

?Budget? Red Dot Sight Comparison ? Part 1 | The Bang Switch

?Budget? Red Dot Sight Comparison ? Part 2 | The Bang Switch

The best thing about a red dot is that I can shoot with both eyes open, preserving my depth and peripheral vision. Sight acquisition is very fast.

When you said scope, usually those mean an optic with magnification. There are illuminated reticule variable power scopes. There are also red dots with fixed magnification, for example a Trijicon ACOG.

Primary Arms just released a 4X Dot.

Primary Arms ACSS 4x Compact Sight | The Bang Switch

[ChattanoogaPhil]

1x Red dot is a fast point and click aiming device. It is not for precision.

Advantages vs magnified optic
Unlimited eye relief
Unlimited field of view
No (limited) parallax
Co-witness with irons
Light weight

Advantages vs irons
Focus only down range
No need to align front and rear sights
View below point of aim

[JeepWhisperer]

It definitely sounds like I need to check one out. Well, maybe not need........strongly want to, anyhow.

[JeepWhisperer]

Originally Posted by JaPes

A quality, inexpensive red dot is a fun thing to have on a 15-22. I highly recommend a Primary Arms Microdot bundle.

Thanks for the great links!!!!

[AGoyette]

The 15-22 I picked up yesterday has a red dot optic on it. It was fun to shoot it today. I am not convinced that it is sighted in at 25 yards like I was told it was. Seems like it was shooting above POA. I will have the husband try it and see if he gets the same results.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by AGoyette

The 15-22 I picked up yesterday has a red dot optic on it. It was fun to shoot it today. I am not convinced that it is sighted in at 25 yards like I was told it was. Seems like it was shooting above POA. I will have the husband try it and see if he gets the same results.

Using typical HV ammo and typical AR sights 2.5'' above the bore.... If the rifle is zeroed at 25 yards it will shoot above POA to 75 yards when it will reach zero again. At 50 yards it will be about an inch high.

[g8rb8]

Originally Posted by AGoyette

The 15-22 I picked up yesterday has a red dot optic on it. It was fun to shoot it today. I am not convinced that it is sighted in at 25 yards like I was told it was. Seems like it was shooting above POA. I will have the husband try it and see if he gets the same results.

Keep working with it. You'll be able to get in sighted in but depending on how high your mount places the optic above the barrel may affect at what distances the optic best shoots POA. My less-than-expert experience with red dot optics is similar to a regular scope. The closer to the barrel you can mount it the better the point of aim over a larger variety of distance. For example I have an AK-47 with the gas tube replaced by an Ultimak rail (gas tube and rail integrated into a single piece). The Primary Arms Microdot sits low enough on that AK-47 I have a perfect cowitness (i.e. the red dot lines up perfectly with the front and rear sight) and I can shoot boringly accurately over a large variety of distances (25 yards to 200 yards). On the other hand I have a red dot that sits significantly above the barrel on another rifle that is sighted in at 100 yards and it is significantly "off" at 25 and 200 yards.

[photoracer]

Depending on eye issues the best way to mount most red dot sights on an AR is without a riser to keep the sightline and bore axis as close as possible. However not everyone can get behind a red dot mounted that low. Plus some come with riser mounts built in for co-witness purposes so they have the same eye position as standard A2 M16 sights. A lot depends on what kind of shooting you will be doing. My 15-22s normally get used for competition so both have low mounted red dots (usually reflex type because I like the 4 reticle patterns), but not always. I tend to mount them at the very far end of the upper receiver so that using both eyes is easier. Thanks to red dots I am still a serious competitive shooter at 66 yo. I can still use iron sightes but not well if they have a lot of separation (easier on pistols and harder on rifles).

[gwpercle]

The red dot sight is a non-magnifying ( usually) optic that takes the place of front and rear sights. Especially useful when you age and can no longer focus on front , rear and target ...it will happen trust me. Because of age and detached retina surgery I wear tri-focals. They allow focusing at reading, just beyond arms length and distance focus...that's it and you have to move your head up and down to see through the different lens...this eliminates the use of irons for me. BUT you look through the red dot sight with your distance vision to see the target clearly and the dot is also in focus, put the dot on the target an squeeze the trigger it's a hit.
With a 2 min. dot , shot at normal hand gun distance it works fine....Long distance rifle work...use a scope with magnification.
They are useful and have a place in shooting. Get one and try it out , they are neat little devices.
Gary

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

Look at what our service members are using. You see any iron sights?

I see irons on every gun. Any optic can fail, any battery can go dead. Its nice to at least have them to fall back on.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by bhayles

Any optic can fail, any battery can go dead. Its nice to at least have them to fall back on.

True. Some red dot sights are pretty tough too. I have an Aimpoint Micro on my AR like this one.

Recently posted by Forum member SiGfever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A***lF_4XUs

[RedNeck Jim]

Originally Posted by bhayles

I see irons on every gun. Any optic can fail, any battery can go dead. Its nice to at least have them to fall back on.

Of course, but they are for backup... not the primary sight. Do you ever see service members USING iron sights? The OP questioned if the optics were a fad.

[JeepWhisperer]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

Especially useful when you age and can no longer focus on front , rear and target ...it will happen trust me.

Thanks for that very useful and honest advise gwpercle and g8rb8!
I'm into my 40's now and my vision is starting to slowly wane. I actually was wondering if one of these optics systems would be easier on the eyes. Thanks for everyone's helpful info!

[roadkill45]

the irons stay on Military rifles, mostly. Used for back up if the electronics fail which they will eventually..battery, wire, glass breaks etc. you still have your properly zeroed irons.
I use EOtechs and C-Mores (on my .22 steels) and have the irons on 45 degree mounts for the close shots. the EO's have 3x mag FTS mount on them.
whomever said they are not for precision, really should ask all the coyotes, fox and bobcats that i have sold or that adorn my walls of my man cave! with a 3x magnifier a 500 yard shot is easy with a 5.56.

I saw a few 15-22's being run with the C-More railway open sight at the nationals (on TV) so i had an extra laying around so i switched out optics on it. looks good, goes to the eye perfect, have not zero'd yet but i will before it gets too hot out here.

no parallex or magnification on the C-More, eyes only, but it will be a good rabbit gun or i may run a steel match or two with it.

i like them all from my S&B Short dot down to my C-More's and everything in between.

[tomcatt51]

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

Of course, but they are for backup... not the primary sight. Do you ever see service members USING iron sights? The OP questioned if the optics were a fad.

You're kidding, I hope. Iron sights were all we had except on sniper rifles and those scopes were, by current standards, fairly primitive. The current optics are technology changing, here to stay, and are definitely easier to use.

I have C-mores on my 15-22's for Ruger (now NSSF) rimfire challenge et al or a 1-4X scope for plinking. They're NOT battle rifles, I don't pretend they are. If the battery dies in my C-more I don't flip up iron sights, I change the battery.

[RedNeck Jim]

Originally Posted by tomcatt51

You're kidding, I hope. Iron sights were all we had except on sniper rifles

Kidding about what? The OP asked if the current generation of optics were a fad. I simply asked for him to look at what the CURRENT crop of service members use as their PRIMARY sight.

I just don't see where that is worthy of discussion or why the questions.

[tomcatt51]

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

I simply asked for him to look at what the CURRENT crop of service members use as their PRIMARY sight.

No, you said:

Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim

Of course, but they are for backup... not the primary sight. Do you ever see service members USING iron sights? The OP questioned if the optics were a fad.

That's what prompted my post which simply pointed out that irons WERE what we used. A scope was rare. That has changed... optics being newer technology, here to stay, and definitely easier to use.

[RedNeck Jim]

I have no idea what point you are making.

[roadkill45]

I don't know if you know, but on your C-More's you do not have to run that expensive 3v battery it uses. Even though i have 2 rechargeable ones, you can use 2 of the 1.5v hearing aid batteries and it is a perfect fit and works just the same. just an FYI

Originally Posted by tomcatt51

You're kidding, I hope. Iron sights were all we had except on sniper rifles and those scopes were, by current standards, fairly primitive. The current optics are technology changing, here to stay, and are definitely easier to use.

I have C-mores on my 15-22's for Ruger (now NSSF) rimfire challenge et al or a 1-4X scope for plinking. They're NOT battle rifles, I don't pretend they are. If the battery dies in my C-more I don't flip up iron sights, I change the battery.

[photoracer]

Originally Posted by roadkill45

I don't know if you know, but on your C-More's you do not have to run that expensive 3v battery it uses. Even though i have 2 rechargeable ones, you can use 2 of the 1.5v hearing aid batteries and it is a perfect fit and works just the same. just an FYI

Yes most pros have been using the 2x1.5v as emergency backup for years. However they only last about 1/2 as long as the long batteries due to technology differences. I personally try to keep extras of both in my spare battery pack just in case. I use C-Mores on my pistols but not on my ARs or 15-22. Not because I wouldn't but because I like the 4 reticle patterns of the TruGlo Dual Red/Green Reflex sight. Gives me options depending on the target size. With the C-More if I want to change from my 8 MOA to a 4 MOA module it takes more time. The TruGlo fits all my match shooting requirements:
1. bright enough for high noon shooting
2. sharp edged patterns
3. doesn't fail to work
4. changing the reticle does not change the POA
All that for about $60. I use C-mores on my pistols because they are mounted at 90 degrees to get the dot as low to the barrel as possible and a C-more is the best for that. I can't get a mini red dot that low on an STI 2011 or a Browning Buckmark.

[roadkill45]

yeah the Alchin mount works well with my non-TacSol MKIII's. I called them up to see if they made one to match up to my 2 MKIII's with the tacsol threaded barrel for my cans but they don't make one. only for the stock barrel configuration. ratz.

[batmann]

I would like to inject one more optic for consideration as I have it on my M&P 15 and that is a Burris AR 332. Great optic w/ BDC, different levels of brightness, will change to red or green from the black, but will work with black even with no batteries so you always have a useable optic.
I know this is getting off track some from the OP original post, but I am not a big fan of red dots as they almost always require a battery to use. Battery dead, no red dot. If I were to put an expensive red dot on my M&P 22, I would have to go with an Aimpoint for battery life. Now, the cost of an Aimpoint is close to what I paid for my rifle which makes for an expensive combo.
I do have a Burris XTS -135 that I have that I am considering mounting on my 22, but I haven't yet. I really like a 3-4x optic, but I have the Burris so we will see.

[tomcatt51]

Originally Posted by batmann

I know this is getting off track some from the OP original post, but I am not a big fan of red dots as they almost always require a battery to use. Battery dead, no red dot.

So what? This isn't your primary weapon, it's not a battle rifle. If the batteries go dead replace them.

That said, for plinking I do prefer a 1-4X scope. Cross-hairs are better for hold-over/under than a red dot. A C-more (red dot) for steel matches.