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Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols All Variants of the Smith & Wesson M&P Auto Pistols


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Old 01-13-2021, 05:35 PM
kreuzlover kreuzlover is offline
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Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown Vic View Post
After twenty five years of lessons, reading and practice I still couldn't cure missing down and left. Recently, out of the blue I wondered about switching trigger fingers. I read the blogs and practiced dry-firing. It felt comfortable and natural. After I was sure I was safe I went to the range with the 4 semi-autos I use most (3-9mm and 1-40 cal) I was amazed at the positive results. I still wasn't perfect but I was a lot more accurate and my shots were evenly dispersed closely on and around the aiming point. It was also much easier to hold my sights on target between shots.
Surely there will be negative responses to my blog, but remember that shooting like many other sports and activities is not a science, it's an art. Picasso and Rembrandt are both wonderful artists but their techniques and styles are very different. Remember, "More than one way to skin a cat". If you're cursed with small hands or having accuracy problems you might give it a try. Practice dry firing for a while until it feels natural and comfortable before you go to the range. Be careful, be safe and have fun. I hope it works for you as well as it did for me. And finally, Massad Ayoob recommends it for shooters with small hands. Which of you critics claims to know more about guns than Mas?
Down, and left, is usually caused by a bad flinch. And Ayoob is not a full-time lawman, and I don't think he ever was. Remember, believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear. I like Ayoobs writing, but learn to take everything with a grain of salt.

Last edited by kreuzlover; 01-13-2021 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:10 AM
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Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
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Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger?  
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According to his own bio on his website, Ayoob was always a part time officer, and primarily a supervisor. He's a member here . . .

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Originally Posted by kreuzlover View Post
Down, and left, is usually caused by a bad flinch. And Ayoob is not a full-time lawman, and I don't think he ever was. Remember, believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear. I like Ayoobs writing, but learn to take everything with a grain of salt.
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:32 PM
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Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger?  
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All the input on instinct shooting, and the catastrophizing about the index finger dragging on the slide, etc, is probably well intended but doesn't address the OP's issue.

In general an index finger, or more commonly a thumb with a high, thumbs forward grip, is generally a problem for people with large hands, when shooting smaller pistols, not folks with smaller hands shooting medium or large frame pistols.

The OPs issue with smaller hands is trigger reach and an inability to get the trigger finger on a DA trigger all the way up to finger joint. That's essential to get enough leverage for an effective DA pull - unless that DA pull is unusually light, or unless the OP has much higher than average finger strength.

Shooting to the right is a classic symptom of not having, or being able to get enough finger on the trigger.

However, people looking at an analysis chart fail to realize that not having enough finger on a DA trigger ALSO almost invariably results in the person tightening their grip during the trigger pull - especially as their trigger finger begins to tire and weaken. That pulls the shot down. They'll also increase pressure with the thumb and lower fingers, which tends to pull the shot to the left.
Those effects offset the pulling to the right effects of not having enough finger on a trigger - which is really a generic description applying to single and DA triggers.

Excessively large grips also mean the person cannot adequately wrap their hand around the grip to properly grip or adequately control the pistol, so increased thumb and finger pressure during the trigger pull also occurs for that reason as well.

The end result is that someone shooting a pistol or revolver with excessive trigger reach starts out shooting left and then devolves to low and left as their trigger finger tires.

----

Possible solutions include things like:

1) Thinner grips or grips that leave the back strap exposed in order to shorten the trigger reach (distance to the trigger).

The Beretta 92 is a good example of a pistol with a long trigger reach, given that it's badly over sized for a 9mm pistol. Beretta makes a short trigger reach kit for it and if you have one, one and can't get your trigger finger on it up to the first joint it's worth getting the short reach kit.

Beretta has finally figured this out with their new 92X. It uses standard straight backstrap profile frame with new flatter grips that allow it to fit the majority of shooters out of the box without the short reach trigger kit.

2) Thinner grips are often the best way to shorten trigger reach.

That's the approach that Beretta took on the 92X - making them flat along the backstrap and thinner over all.

Ruger's GP-100 and SP-101 revolvers also use a grip stub, rather than the grip frame they used in the older Speed/Service/Security Six series, and Red Hawk series DA revolvers. S&W also uses a grip frame.

The advantage of the grip stub is there is no back strap to limit the minimum trigger reach, so you are able to get or customize grips that will accomodate any hand size.


3) Some decocker designs shorten trigger reach

The CZ 75 and CZ 2075 pistols are a good example of this. If you pull the trigger on a round with a defective primer where the pistol will not cycle and re-cock the hammer, you'll have the full length trigger pull for a second pull to re-attempt to fire that round.

However, under normal circumstances where you decock the pistol after it is loaded, or when you are done firing, the DA pull will be significantly shorter (and of course once it fires and recocks the hammer, you have a very short SA pull). That shorter decocked DA pull is much more amenable to shooters who need a short trigger reach pistol.

That's a lot different than a DA/SA pistol like the S&W 39, where the decocker puts the hammer all the way down.

----

With that in mind the best approach is to shop around, try different revolvers or pistols on for size and be aware of different grip options that might help reduce the trigger reach.

Last edited by BB57; 01-14-2021 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:47 PM
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Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger? Anyone use the middle finger to pull the trigger?  
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As for Massad Ayoob's discussion of the very old practice (dating back to at least WWII) of pointing the index finger along the side of the frame for "instinct" shooting, particularly at night. It does work for many people, even if it is out of fashion.

-----

As for people bashing Ayoob for not being a full time officer, I'm not sure how that is relevant, other than as a justification for instructors and full time officers to disagree with what he says.

The sad fact is most police officers are not gun people and are just not very proficient with their service pistols. Despite the PR to the contrary, they are also not all that well trained in using them.

I shot tactical pistol competition for a couple decades and I rarely saw law enforcement officers who were competitive, even at small local matches. In fact I rarely saw them. The two I remember most were FBI agents who were smart enough and humble enough to realize they didn't shoot very well, despite far better than average training at Quantico. They were firmly in the bottom of the pack but improved significantly over time with practice and more competitive experience. They stand out as the average LEO showed up for match shot poorly and then never came back. To proud to admit they could not shoot well, or to embarrassed to show it in public was a likely possibility.

Thus when I see an LEO show up in a forum and talk like they are some sort of handgun combat expert, I take that with a HUGE grain of salt.

Now... that probably raised the hackles on a lot of LEOs, and they'll counter with arguments such as "over 80% of officers involved in shootings report never using their sights", or that under extreme stress your sights are useless.

The first statement is true but the second is only conditionally true and failing the second is the reason for the first. That's where they need to hear me out - as a former LEO, who's been shot at twice. Under extreme stress people devolve to their lowest level of fully mastered training.

For an LEO who qualifies once or twice a year and never really masters any of the basic skills, pointing the service pistol in the general direction of the bad guy and mashing the trigger is all he or she has when under extreme stress. Hit rates in the 20% range are the result with lower percentages in low light conditions and or at ranges longer than about 15 yards.

In contrast, if you take an LEO who shoots often (100-200 rounds per week) and more importantly learned to shoot properly to:

- keep his eyes on the target/threat;
- draw his pistol and bring it up into his line of sight;
- place the front sight on target;
- pause to verify sight alignment or align the rear sight with the front sight; and then
- press the trigger.

You'll see much higher hit percentages and you'll see the LEO using his sights, even under extreme stress.

That happens for a couple reasons.

First, the shooter has repeated the process above so often that over time the he develops muscle memory in his hand that ensures the pistol rises into his line of sight with the pistol positioned so that the rear sights will automatically be aligned with the front sight when he places the front sight on target. During practice, once that grip is mastered and committed to muscle memory, the "pause" in the above process is extremely short - less than a tenth of a second - and mostly just verifies the front sight is on target. The sights will always be aligned as the response from the muscles is automatic and is no longer a conscious thought.

Second, under extreme stress, the response is automatic and takes zero mental bandwidth. The shooter just focuses on the front sight placed on the target/threat. Any pause that is taken is just to confirm the need to send the shot/next shot. For example if you've double tapped the threat and are transitioning to a failure to stop shot to the head, as the pistol recovers from the recoil and your transition to the head, that very brief "pause" is just confirming the head is still where it should be and the front sight is on it. If that head is on the way down to the ground, you'll recognize the need may no longer exist and extend the pause.

If the LEO has also shot competitively it's a plus as the shooter has experience shooting under time pressure and some degree of stress, while also having to divide his attention.

The key either way is having the basic grip, sight picture and trigger pull skills firmly committed to muscle memory so that they do not require any mental bandwidth at all. That leaves the reduced bandwidth you have under extreme stress 100% available to make the critical decisions and assessments, without compromising your shooting.

Not many LEOs ever come close to that level of proficiency, and most then shoot very poorly under stress.

----

Now...I'm not saying that you should agree with everything Ayoob says. First of all doing something just because someone said is authoritarian learning that is the least robust, least valid and lowest level means of learning anything. Second, like *any* "expert" or "authority" he's biased by his experiences, preferences and individual skill sets.

I don't agree with everything he says. However, I do listen to what he says, and then evaluate it critically and *objectively* based on how well it fits with my experiences, philosophy, preferences and skill sets.

I also come with an attitude that I am willing to change my point of view if what he suggests works better for me.

I do not discount what he says just because he says it from a part time officer perspective. Part time or not, most of what he says is well considered and well thought out and at least worth considering even if you don't choose to follow it based on your own experience or specialized circumstances.

A lot of full time officers could stand to significantly improve their objectivity as well as their critical thinking skills. They shouldn't be discounting what someone says based solely on some sort of authoritarian learning that says something different.
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