What does this mean ? (M&P pistol)

[retired2006]

I am looking at a M&P 40 pistol available at Bud's Law Enforcement Supply, and it is described as: S&W M&P40 40S&W NMS NS RST PVD

I understand that NMS is "no mag safety" and NS is "night sights" and that PVD has to do with the slide finish, but what does "RST" mean ? The salesman at Buds said RST referred to a change in the trigger, but really didn't know anything else.

What is the difference between the PVD finish and the melonite finish ?

What does "RST" mean, and how is it different than the regular M&P ?

[caribe]

Could it be for the improved trigger reset...Those are the best prices I have seen on the M&P with night sights.

[azxr]

I don't know myself but take the model number from Buds and search on the Smith & Wesson site. You can look at their description and specification PDF. If the Buds number has a LE after it you may have to try and search with just the number.

[78Staff]

As others have mentioned, it's the latest LE model with PVD finish slide and improved trigger reset - which I believe is accomplished basically with the latest gen3 slide stop, not any actual trigger or sear change.

Agree those are very solid prices at Buds PS, if I didn't just buy a 40 Pro Series a few weeks ago I would jump on one. However, if a 45 pops up... .

Also, they have the Cores at $550,which is $225 cheaper than local. Seems like several big online shops are dropping the price on Cores, which makes you wonder if something new is coming, or if being changed significantly and this is a push to get rid of old stock...


EDiT - Looks like may have been wrong - Grant at G&R Tactical stated in the below thread the new LE line has updates to "The trigger bar, slide catch, sear, SHB, barrel, sights and finish." Now, how many of those are normal inline changes vs something new specifically for this new LE series, I don't know. Assuming it'sthe H trigger bar and new slide stop, which should come on any new M&P. Sear was updated late 2013. SHB - there have been several changes noted at MSW and detailed in a few threads here, so again might just be standard parts for current models. So, other than PVD, it may just be your standard current M&P still.

Help locating SKU 151215

[Rastoff]

So, what is PVD? Poly Vinyl Dip?

[DanP7]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

So, what is PVD? Poly Vinyl Dip?

Vapor deposit

High tech bonding method

[78Staff]

As an example the M&P VTAC has a PVD FDE finish...

[redrock]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

So, what is PVD? Poly Vinyl Dip?

It's actually Physical Vapor Deposit, which is a particular type of vacuum deposition used to coat everything from drill bits to firearms. An expanded explanation here: Vacuum Deposition Processes : Products Finishing

As for the RST notation, my best guess (and that's all it is) is that maybe this is used to indicate a Restricted State Trigger, like the ones mandated for pistols sold in Massachusetts?

[Rastoff]

Thanks for the link redrock.

Has anyone seen the wear characteristics of this PVD and how it compares to Melonite?

[78Staff]

Originally Posted by redrock

It's actually Physical Vapor Deposit, which is a particular type of vacuum deposition used to coat everything from drill bits to firearms. An expanded explanation here: Vacuum Deposition Processes : Products Finishing

As for the RST notation, my best guess (and that's all it is) is that maybe this is used to indicate a Restricted State Trigger, like the ones mandated for pistols sold in Massachusetts?

I doubt it's a Restricted State Trigger. ie MA or whatever - only LE models are available with the PVD finish at this time, and they wouldn't have 10lb triggers. It's the updated reset, there are plenty of details in Grant's post I linked earlier.

[78Staff]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Thanks for the link redrock.

Has anyone seen the wear characteristics of this PVD and how it compares to Melonite?

The M&P VTAC is a PVD finish, if that tells you anything . Plenty of people complained about holster wear on the vtac... I would hope they did something different, though - doesn't make sense to put that fragile finish on a duty/LE weapon...

[JohnSW]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

Seems like several big online shops are dropping the price on Cores, which makes you wonder if something new is coming, or if being changed significantly and this is a push to get rid of old stock...

Are COREs full-sized poly guns? S&W recently reported "lower sales of large frame polymer pistols".

Investors - Press Releases - Smith & Wesson

[Bkreutz]

Originally Posted by JohnSW

Are COREs full-sized poly guns?

Yes............(10 characters)

[78Staff]

Originally Posted by JohnSW

Are COREs full-sized poly guns? S&W recently reported "lower sales of large frame polymer pistols".

Investors - Press Releases - Smith & Wesson

M&P Cores are Full Size 9/40/357 frame (although the CORE is only avail in 9mm or 40S&W) with either 4.25 or 5" barrel... May be just that simple, that they aren't selling well...

Let's face it, for the premium in price, if you know you are going to change the trigger and sights, the Pro Series/Core isn't really a great value. CORE of course if you want to run an optic sight, but otherwise, if you are going to drop in a bunch of apex parts and some Trijicon HD's, no point in buying a Pro Series over the standard model. I have one only because i ran across one at a nice price, and I like the stock night sights enough not to bother changing them out, but I still dropped in an FSS kit .

[shawn mccarver]

RST stands for "Re-set trigger."

[johnnyloco]

Cool Stuff

[redrock]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

I doubt it's a Restricted State Trigger. ie MA or whatever - only LE models are available with the PVD finish at this time, and they wouldn't have 10lb triggers. It's the updated reset, there are plenty of details in Grant's post I linked earlier.

My understanding is that MA LEO have the same 10lb trigger requirements as civilians applied to all (duty and off-duty) newly issued or purchased firearms. I could be wrong and would be curious to know if a MA LEO posting here can confirm either way. MA aside, I do know NY has a heavier trigger pull requirement for its duty guns. The point being: you could have a notation to indicate a heavier trigger pull equipped gun -- even with an LE only SKU.

At any rate, Restricted State Trigger seemed a more likely guess than ReSet Trigger for the RST notation. Shawn seems to confirm your guess, but didn't say where he gleaned the confirming info. [Shawn, feel free to jump in here.]

And yes, I do know about the updated reset on the new LE M&P SKU you mentioned, as what you quoted from above is actually something I had posted previously. The new "updated reset" was simply a rolling engineering change/update and not and option by which a pistol is speced; like say, night sights, thumb safety, mag lock, mag capacity, restricted state trigger, etc. Which is what made me doubt the necessity of specing that particular engineering change as if it were some optional feature.

[redrock]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

The M&P VTAC is a PVD finish, if that tells you anything . Plenty of people complained about holster wear on the vtac... I would hope they did something different, though - doesn't make sense to put that fragile finish on a duty/LE weapon...

It's all relative. There's no perfect finish and there are tradeoffs with all of them. I still like hardchrome for durability, but not everyone wants a silver finish. The original Glock Tenifer was better than Melonite or the newer PVD finishes like IonBond. Problem was they used poisonous chemicals (cyanide-like, IIRC) that the EPA wouldn't approve for domestic production. PVD is not "fragile" per se, but will show wear on high points; especially if used with kydex holsters. Sharp corners are problematic for most applied finishes. The process can be have varying results depending on the prep work and application QC applied to the process.

There was an interesting thread on the Brian Enos forum a while back that seemed an honest assessment of PVD strengths and weaknesses. An OEM application should allow the best opportunity to get the finish applied correctly (as compared to refinishing) and I would still like to get my hands on an M&P with the new black PVD finish. For me, it looks to be a promising finish option.

See: Ion Bond review. - General Gunsmithing - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

[78Staff]

Originally Posted by redrock

My understanding is that MA LEO have the same 10lb trigger requirements as civilians applied to all (duty and off-duty) newly issued or purchased firearms. I could be wrong and would be curious to know if a MA LEO posting here can confirm either way. MA aside, I do know NY has a heavier trigger pull requirement for its duty guns. The point being: you could have a notation to indicate a heavier trigger pull equipped gun -- even with an LE only SKU.

At any rate, Restricted State Trigger seemed a more likely guess than ReSet Trigger for the RST notation. Shawn seems to confirm your guess, but didn't say where he gleaned the confirming info. [Shawn, feel free to jump in here.]

And yes, I do know about the updated reset on the new LE M&P SKU you mentioned, as what you quoted from above is actually something I had posted previously. The new "updated reset" was simply a rolling engineering change/update and not and option by which a pistol is speced; like say, night sights, thumb safety, mag lock, mag capacity, restricted state trigger, etc. Which is what made me doubt the necessity of specing that particular engineering change as if it were some optional feature.

I agree, most of the mentioned changes would be considered rolling engineering changes/updates, I think I just referred to inline changes, but yeah we are talking about the same thing really.

It would be interesting if they are MA trigger sku's - seems Bud's PS didn't know really either, or at least the person on the phone that day... Man that would suck ordering an M&P expecting a 5-6lb trigger and getting a MA 10lb. The MA Sku's used to end in a certain number iirc correctly, but I don't recall what it was... anyone?

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by redrock

The original Glock Tenifer was better than Melonite or the newer PVD finishes like IonBond. Problem was they used poisonous chemicals (cyanide-like, IIRC) that the EPA wouldn't approve for domestic production.

Interesting comment. I thought that Melonite and Tenifer were the same process. Also, if the EPA doesn't allow it, how is Glock making them in the US?

[redrock]

[quote=Rastoff;138083162]

Originally Posted by redrock

The original Glock Tenifer was better than Melonite or the newer PVD finishes like IonBond. Problem was they used poisonous chemicals (cyanide-like, IIRC) that the EPA wouldn't approve for domestic production./QUOTE]Interesting comment. I thought that Melonite and Tenifer were the same process. Also, if the EPA doesn't allow it, how is Glock making them in the US?

They are similar enough not to matter to me, but I'm guessing there is distinction enough in process or applied materials to allow a copyright-able distinction for purposes of protecting the Tenifer name. The early German production Glocks do have a visually identifiable finish difference from the new US production guns, and there has been a change of permitted chemical used in the process, despite the abscence of any (that I know of) factory acknowledgement of this fact. This was posted in great detail elsewhere, but I can't dredge it up now.

[redrock]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

I agree, most of the mentioned changes would be considered rolling engineering changes/updates, I think I just referred to inline changes, but yeah we are talking about the same thing really.

It would be interesting if they are MA trigger sku's - seems Bud's PS didn't know really either, or at least the person on the phone that day... Man that would suck ordering an M&P expecting a 5-6lb trigger and getting a MA 10lb. The MA Sku's used to end in a certain number iirc correctly, but I don't recall what it was... anyone?

I'm wondering if the RST is Bud's own selling feature short hand, and whether this isn't something that doesn't actually appears on the box end label? Maybe some sort of distributor notation carried over to their online listing?

[78Staff]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

I agree, most of the mentioned changes would be considered rolling engineering changes/updates, I think I just referred to inline changes, but yeah we are talking about the same thing really.

It would be interesting if they are MA trigger sku's - seems Bud's PS didn't know really either, or at least the person on the phone that day... Man that would suck ordering an M&P expecting a 5-6lb trigger and getting a MA 10lb. The MA Sku's used to end in a certain number iirc correctly, but I don't recall what it was... anyone?

Looking again Bud PS Specs these as 6.5lb triggers, which is standard for non Pro Series models. I think MA guns are 10lbs...

[Jaquino06]

Just spoke with s&w customer service. The gentleman there said the PVD is a coating they use to coat the slides. However it does have its pros and cons. He said that it will provide some durability to the slide and will prevent it somewhat from corrosion. The PVD slides are able to be stripped and recolored. He says the melonite slides will be more durable and prevent against corrosion better than the PVD due to the fact that the melonite is imbedded in the steel but you will not be able to strip it and recolor the slide.
As for the RST feature, it means reset trigger. He said people were complaining that the trigger reset on the M&P's were not as noticable or "dead" so they came up with a mechanism that allowed for a more noticeable reset in the trigger.

[Johnmuratore]

MA guns are indeed 10.5lb triggers. They have a separate SKU and the trigger pull is printed on the ID strip on the blue box.
I can't speak for the LEO versions.

[Ofc.JL]

Glocks built in the US no longer have a Tenifer finish, as the application process requires Cyanid(IIRC). EPA has fits about that sort of thing. Can Tenifer be done here in the US? Certainly, but the cost per unit(pistol slide) would probably be very high. Glock is now stating that they are using a "Nitro Carburizing" finish which is very similiar, if not almost the same. End result seems to be the same to me, but I have heard that some people think that the "Nitro Carburing" is not quite as good as Tenifer and Glock has had some very sporadic rusting issues on US made guns. For that matter, so has S&W. Melonite, as I understand it, is very similar to Tenifer(I think the copyright on both processes is owned by 1 company, but don't quote me), and much safer to apply, hence they use it here in the US.
Metal Engineers please chime in.

[Louchia]

M&P neans Military and Police The gun design is that to meet needs of M&P. I read it some where

[dullh]

"What does "RST" mean, and how is it different than the regular M&P" ?

In morse code communications over the shortwaves it means Readability Strength and Tone.

Don't know what it means where guns are concerned...

[dullh]

Originally Posted by Louchia

M&P neans (sic) Military and Police The gun design is that to meet needs of M&P. I read it some where

Smith and Wesson coined the term "Military and Police" around 1899, to describe a revolver that was marketed toward...well...you guessed it...

This is not a new term...

[S&W Rover]

Originally Posted by 78Staff

The M&P VTAC is a PVD finish, if that tells you anything . Plenty of people complained about holster wear on the vtac... I would hope they did something different, though - doesn't make sense to put that fragile finish on a duty/LE weapon...

I'm guessing holster wear on a FDE pistol shows up faster than it does on a black pistol. But the jury is out on the PVD finish. I think Melonite is pretty good... we'll see how the PVD works. I've touched one, and it felt more like Parkerizing to me; the one I saw was a police trade-in that had been used hard. One of the things I noticed was the PVD chipped rather than scratched. So... if anyone out there is a LEO who has used one for a while under more or less controlled conditions, let us know.