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Is the M&P pistol fully cocked when a round is chambered?
- Thread starter itr674
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bobkarno
Well-known member
I have read some articles where they stated that the striker is about 98% cocked, but still moves back a bit (a tiny bit when you visualize the way the sear works) when you pull the trigger so that was where the double action comes from. This was just what I read. As I see it, the sear isn't doing much except pivoting out of the way, but whatever. It seems that most striker fired pistols are listed as DAO.
whtsmoke
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DA is where you can pull the trigger to fire the weapon, thats is a loaded round in the chamber the firing mechanism is at rest. The double action allows you to pull the trigger on a unfired round to try and set it off, or to fire the gun you must pull the trigger as in a DA revolver to fire it. I hope I have this right.
OKFC05
Well-known member
No.
It is not a single action.
Technically the Glocks and M&Ps are "safe action" which is not exactly traditional double action either, as the strikers are engaged and partially pulled back. However, they are grouped with the traditional double action pistols in the various Sanctioning Organizations for competition. For example, in USPSA Production Division, you will find all the "combat tupperware" grouped in with the S&W traditional double actions. No single actions allowed in Production.
SMMAssociates
Well-known member
Just me, but having carried (and worked on) a PPS40, and carried a Springfield XD, the M&P's that I have are fully cocked when the striker is engaged. The PPS and XD are not....
I suppose you could argue that the striker moves a few zillionth's of an inch as the sear drops out of the way, but that's also the firing process - the sear just drops more or less vertically....
The Glock, I'm told, and the Springfield XD's move the striker back a ways as the trigger is operated.
By my definition, the M&P's are single-action.... The PPS and XD are Glock-style....
HOWEVER, I would guess that the USPSA definition (if that information is correct - I have no idea) is based on a very long and slightly heavy trigger v.s. the hair-trigger of a fast 1911 or SA revolver (or a DA revolver in SA mode). Both the Glock and M&P have some length of pull....
The Para LDA is called "Light Double Action", but it's mostly hype. The trigger comes back a ways under about 2# or so of pressure, until you hit the trip point, when it turns into an ordinary SA. The idea is that the hammer isn't back when in Condition One (which is pretty much the only way to carry the thing), so the chairborne rangers who don't like SA's don't notice....
The other issue for Tupperguns is the restrike situation. It's not, IMHO, a DA, if you can't get a restrike without thumbing back a hammer. (Or there's no hammer at all.) The Glock, Springfield, and PPS designs, even with some striker movement, won't restrike....
(Whether restrike capability is desirable in other than .22's is another story
.)
Obviously, the solution is to run out and buy appropriate samples, but my wife wouldn't go for it....
Regards,
I suppose you could argue that the striker moves a few zillionth's of an inch as the sear drops out of the way, but that's also the firing process - the sear just drops more or less vertically....
The Glock, I'm told, and the Springfield XD's move the striker back a ways as the trigger is operated.
By my definition, the M&P's are single-action.... The PPS and XD are Glock-style....
HOWEVER, I would guess that the USPSA definition (if that information is correct - I have no idea) is based on a very long and slightly heavy trigger v.s. the hair-trigger of a fast 1911 or SA revolver (or a DA revolver in SA mode). Both the Glock and M&P have some length of pull....
The Para LDA is called "Light Double Action", but it's mostly hype. The trigger comes back a ways under about 2# or so of pressure, until you hit the trip point, when it turns into an ordinary SA. The idea is that the hammer isn't back when in Condition One (which is pretty much the only way to carry the thing), so the chairborne rangers who don't like SA's don't notice....
The other issue for Tupperguns is the restrike situation. It's not, IMHO, a DA, if you can't get a restrike without thumbing back a hammer. (Or there's no hammer at all.) The Glock, Springfield, and PPS designs, even with some striker movement, won't restrike....
(Whether restrike capability is desirable in other than .22's is another story
.)Obviously, the solution is to run out and buy appropriate samples, but my wife wouldn't go for it
....Regards,
Tom Goodrick
Well-known member
Compared to SA/DA as defined for revolvers, the M&P's are essentially all SA once you chamber a round, whether you fire a single round at a time or several in succession, you don't have to perform a separate cocking action with the trigger. The trigger motion is short, quick and easy very much like firing a cocked revolver. (I just sold a SA and a DA revolver to pay for the M&P 40.)
If you start with an empty gun and insert a magazine with the action open, you must release the slide to chamber a round. That essentially cocks the gun in my book. It will fire easily. My MP40 fires so easily it is like firing a cocked revolver.
If you insert the magazine with the action closed, you must rack the slide to chamber a round. That action cocks the striker.
It is silly to debate fine points as above. The confusion can keep people from buying the guns if they want an SA for accuracy.
If you start with an empty gun and insert a magazine with the action open, you must release the slide to chamber a round. That essentially cocks the gun in my book. It will fire easily. My MP40 fires so easily it is like firing a cocked revolver.
If you insert the magazine with the action closed, you must rack the slide to chamber a round. That action cocks the striker.
It is silly to debate fine points as above. The confusion can keep people from buying the guns if they want an SA for accuracy.
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I don't want to start anything, but does this worry anybody here?
I mean, would you cock a Model 29 and holster it?
Maybe that's why a safety is offered on some models?
Tim
I mean, would you cock a Model 29 and holster it?
Maybe that's why a safety is offered on some models?
Tim
Maximumbob54
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Smith & Wesson M&P - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This Wikipedia article explains it best, I think. With the internal safeties built into the M&P I would feel perfectly at ease with holstering one. Most of these non-external safety models take the human failure of switching the safety off under duress to a level much like that of a revolver. If you don’t care for the standard trigger pull then you can always send it in for modification.
SMMAssociates
Well-known member
Tim:
(I assume you mean an S&W M29.)
The downside of holstering a cocked revolver is the same issue as the "shirt in the holster" that's the problem with most "no safety" semi's. Something could get caught in the thing.... And, if we're talking about the S&W M29, the trigger pull distance when cocked is VERY tiny (weight is probably not an issue). Get your shirt into the mix and an AD is quite likely. The semi's of the M&P type generally are less likely to fire unless the shirt is in there for the full trigger stroke, and that's quite a bit longer - "press and HOLD".... (Yeah - the M29 is built that way, too, but with the trigger all the way back, IMHO, it's a tad iffy.)
I've done the "test" - cock the hammer on an ordinary revolver, and tap the trigger with a bullet. It won't usually fire (test it with a pencil!), but the "tap" test is intentionally a very short tap. A shirt tail may be in there way too long. Not a heck of a lot different with a semi, but, IMHO, not quite as "hair trigger".
I carried an S&W M19 for "uniform duty" and an M10HB for concealment for many years. IWB, OWB, etc. No problems, but you do kinda have to know where the shirt is, and I really wouldn't feel safe putting one of those into my holster while cocked.
(This can happen in a stressful situation, with a semi - and some people forget to re-engage the safeties, if any - but it's, I think, less likely with a revolver.)
Regards,
(I assume you mean an S&W M29.)
The downside of holstering a cocked revolver is the same issue as the "shirt in the holster" that's the problem with most "no safety" semi's. Something could get caught in the thing.... And, if we're talking about the S&W M29, the trigger pull distance when cocked is VERY tiny (weight is probably not an issue). Get your shirt into the mix and an AD is quite likely. The semi's of the M&P type generally are less likely to fire unless the shirt is in there for the full trigger stroke, and that's quite a bit longer - "press and HOLD".... (Yeah - the M29 is built that way, too, but with the trigger all the way back, IMHO, it's a tad iffy.)
I've done the "test" - cock the hammer on an ordinary revolver, and tap the trigger with a bullet. It won't usually fire (test it with a pencil!), but the "tap" test is intentionally a very short tap. A shirt tail may be in there way too long. Not a heck of a lot different with a semi, but, IMHO, not quite as "hair trigger".
I carried an S&W M19 for "uniform duty" and an M10HB for concealment for many years. IWB, OWB, etc. No problems, but you do kinda have to know where the shirt is, and I really wouldn't feel safe putting one of those into my holster while cocked.
(This can happen in a stressful situation, with a semi - and some people forget to re-engage the safeties, if any - but it's, I think, less likely with a revolver.)
Regards,
First, I agree with BlackAgnes. You can get M&Ps with thumb safties. I didn't, I depend on the internal safties. It is dumb to carry a semi-auto without a round in the chamber. You got a club until you work the slide. 
But, for IDPA, the XD and M&P are considered single action and must be shot in ESP, enhanced service pistol. Glock and Beretta are called double action and shoot in SSP, stock service pistol. Others that have the long trigger pull like the Beretta for the first shot and single action for the rest are allowed in SSP.
For USPSA Production there is a list of allowed handguns. The M&P and XD are on it. No matter what caliber you shoot, you are scored minor for Production. Plus, you can have only 10 rounds in the magazine.
I have heard that there was much wrangling for both the M&P and XD to be on that list. Glock and Beretta are on that list. 
The 1911 types are not allowed, but I've got my M&P 9 Pro as close to a 1911 trigger as you can get. 
I may be fibbing a bit. 
Shoot a lot. Be Happy.
But, for IDPA, the XD and M&P are considered single action and must be shot in ESP, enhanced service pistol. Glock and Beretta are called double action and shoot in SSP, stock service pistol. Others that have the long trigger pull like the Beretta for the first shot and single action for the rest are allowed in SSP.
For USPSA Production there is a list of allowed handguns. The M&P and XD are on it. No matter what caliber you shoot, you are scored minor for Production. Plus, you can have only 10 rounds in the magazine.
I have heard that there was much wrangling for both the M&P and XD to be on that list. Glock and Beretta are on that list. The 1911 types are not allowed, but I've got my M&P 9 Pro as close to a 1911 trigger as you can get. I may be fibbing a bit. Shoot a lot.
Be Happy. sdarc
Well-known member
FYI M&P's are IDPA legal in SSP being they are "safe action semi-automatics"
chuck s
Well-known member
Quibbling over minute technicalities won't make either the M&P or Glock a "double action" pistol. They're single action. As are the Para Ordnance LDA and HK LEM pistols. Treat them as such and you'll be fine. The long two stage triggers on all four of these do not need an additional mechanical safety. (The HK LEM has a vestige of double action in it, but you can't get to it safely so is best to ignore it.)
-- Chuck
-- Chuck
OKFC05
Well-known member
Here's the list for you to read:
USPSA/NROI Production Gun List - USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association
USPSA - NROI Production Gun List
There are steps and criteria for a handgun to be accepted to the Production gun list.
- 1. 2000 manufactured and available to the general public .
- 2. No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell, the lateral internal width of the well may not be more than 1/4" wider than the lateral width of the magazine. The lateral width of the well to mean the narrow width where the mainspring housing is inserted, the lateral width of the magazine to mean the narrow side that faces the mainspring housing when inserted into the handgun.
- 3. Must meet the criteria listed in the appendix of the current rule book as well as that listed above.
- 4. The gun must be viewed by NROI prior to its acceptance. 5. A production gun approval form filled out and signed and returned to NROI.
This is correct. No sanctioning body considers the M&P semi-autos as "single-actions" regardless of any individual opinions to the contrary. Neither are they traditional "double actions."
In the last IDPA nationals, the M&Ps were almost as many as Glocks in numbers in the Stock Service Pistol (SSP) DIvision.
The list of guns used in the various divsions were listed in the IDPA Tactical Journal.
sdarc
Well-known member
The list of guns used in the various divsions were listed in the IDPA Tactical Journal.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I knew I had seen the list on IDPA's site, couldn't remember where.
Thanks for this. I knew I had seen the list on IDPA's site, couldn't remember where.
My bad. A M&P is shot in SSP. The last time I shot IDPA I had a 9mm Tactical XD. I was told I had to shoot ESP. It doesn't make any difference to me then or now about SSP or ESP. I like IDPA, just not available like USPSA.Wee Hooker
Well-known member
x2 but the danger comes in if you try to put a 2.5# DA trigger on an M&P which has no manual safety. Personally, I like my M&P's at a safe 5.5# .
chuck s
Well-known member
5.5 pounds feels about right to me for the M&P trigger too.
Since this is functionally a 2-stage, single action trigger the first stage can and should be taken out as soon as the pistol is pointed target. Complete the trigger press at the first acceptable sight picture. At 4.5 pounds there's just not enough feel of the sear trip point on my M&P9 but adding a pound with the Apex Tactical "duty/carry" trigger springs cured that. And provided a nice, positive trigger reset.
Murphy's Law of External Safeties clearly states the safety will be ON when you need it OFF, even if you never place it On. The only way to circumvent this is to depress and hold the safety down in the OFF position as soon as you grip the pistol. Professionals armed with the M1911 have trained for this for years. The M&P safety doesn't lend itself well to this.
-- Chuck
Since this is functionally a 2-stage, single action trigger the first stage can and should be taken out as soon as the pistol is pointed target. Complete the trigger press at the first acceptable sight picture. At 4.5 pounds there's just not enough feel of the sear trip point on my M&P9 but adding a pound with the Apex Tactical "duty/carry" trigger springs cured that. And provided a nice, positive trigger reset.
Murphy's Law of External Safeties clearly states the safety will be ON when you need it OFF, even if you never place it On. The only way to circumvent this is to depress and hold the safety down in the OFF position as soon as you grip the pistol. Professionals armed with the M1911 have trained for this for years. The M&P safety doesn't lend itself well to this.
-- Chuck
Interesting that S&W spec sheet calls the new Smith & Wesson Model M&P22 pistol a single action...
Product: Smith & Wesson Model M&P22
Product: Smith & Wesson Model M&P22
chuck s
Well-known member
The M&P (and Glock) are only Double Action when the company is trying to sell pistols to police departments who insist on DA pistol!
-- Chuck
-- Chuck
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