Last April I taught firearms to academy cadets....one being a very small female officer who had problems with Glock 19 which are academy gun.

Under 5'.

she was hired by the dept I work for and tonight during night quals....she came up to me and said could I help her. I could tell mentally she was scared of not qualifying.

Our dept issues G21SF or G32s for smaller hands. Years ago an Admin decision purchased G32s (.357 Sig) for the smaller guns based on .357 Sig being a hot cartridge....but what they did not take into account is most of the officers who cannot physically handle the G21 cannot handle the power of the .357 Sig and in a blocky gripped Glock.

She did not qualify the first go around and it was difficult for me to see what she was doing wrong because it was dark. she had many misfires likely due to limp wrist. I could tell she was severly affected be not qualifying. She is a young officer and I would like to steer her in the right direction before this wears her down.

Through coaching...I was able to get her to qualify...barely. .357 Sig is not for her. However I told her I will not be by her side in a gun fight and she understood.

My question to those who possess a Med Frame Glock (17, 19, 22, 23, etc)....

is the M&P equivalent smaller in the grip area and shorter to reach the trigger compared to the Med Frame Glock?

I need to make a recommendation to Admin and tomorrow I am going to have her shoot a G22 to see if she does any better. Since we are a .45acp and .357 Sig Dept....does the M&P 45 fit small hands.

I know this will lie on her hands and personal training to become more proficient, but want to steer her in the right direction.

I will likely get shot down by Admin and I hate to recommend a Glock 9mm for duty use but that may be the correct choice until she becomes more proficient and can step up to the heavier calibers.

thanks in advance

With the small back strap installed I would say yes blindly but your results may vary. My girlfriend has very small hands and she fires my M&P 9 Pro 5" with ease and with a good grip, using the small back strap.

Now if she has hands like my 10 year old... I'd say not quite. My daughter can't reach the trigger comfortably on it even with the small back strap.

The grip area on an MP is radiused and contoured instead of brick shaped so Im pretty sure that the reach from the backstrap to the trigger is shorter on an M&P. However seen alot of female trainees shoot Beretta's and Glocks with no great problem. Some had problems withthe 40 cal but most are able to train through it. If she can do it with help , then its just a matter of training/proper practice whether she wants it or not. IMO, Good luck.
Also depending on the bullet nothing wrong with the 9mm, good rounds that penetrate 11-12" and open up are hard to beat, especially because the average officer can shoot the 9mm better than 40/45 due to grip size and muzzle flip and has more ammunition. of course another IMO, Again Good Luck Bob

If they won't go for the M&P, see if they might allow her to purchase the same G32 (or a G19 for that matter) and have a professional do a grip reduction on it for her. It will make a world of difference and there are enough grip-reduced Glocks around that she might be able to find one to try before she spends the money. Also the new Gen4 guns are slightly smaller without the spacres than the Gen3 guns if that might be an option.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

I'm morally and religiously disinclined to recommend a G-word, but ikor has the right idea if you're stuck with them.

Just IMHO, the M&P9C or 40C (pretty much the same gun) might be fine choices - they're not as blocky. The .40 is a tad snappy, but the chubby grip should be helpful unless the young lady is very small. (My daughter - about 5'5" and 120# - can handle the 9C just fine.)

It shouldn't be hard to find a sample for her to try in both 9mm and .40S&W....

I'm big enough to use this gal (or my daughter) as a belt buckle , and a 1911 guy (although I wear a 40C around the house), so the .40 doesn't bother me at all, but it is hotter than the .45. Oddly, the 40FS seems to have slightly more "kick" - probably due to the longer barrel. My EDC is an Officer's sized 1911, but it's all steel, and shoots fairly smoothly. My daughter can shoot those, too.

Just IMHO, the .357 Sig should be avoided. Odd ammo, if nothing else....

There's a very small young lady on the OFCC board right now with the same sort of questions. I think she has to buy a 45FS. Told her to look into the Compact if she's buying, and then let her Chief buy her the bigger one. That'd give her a nice concealment gun that's essentially identical to the uniform gun. For "qualification", with a little practice, they shoot about the same....

I once was involved in a training thing, and there was a very small young girl there. We tried to find her something small (stainless Chief's Special, actually), and she couldn't hit anything. Switched to a small Colt (can't remember the model, but it's a 4" five-shot revolver) with similar results. The J-frame was improperly lubricated, which didn't help, but the Colt should have been fine. Eventually, we let her try the M10HB that the boys were shooting. She shot that about as well as anybody else. 'Course, that is a little easier to get a small hand around unless it's really small....

Regards,

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Stu.

The FBI used to have a "our gun/method or the highway" system. After losing, IIRC, Hansen vs the FBI, some sanity entered their policy process. You might want to research that a bit to possibly use as a club. If she can qualify with a weapon/caliber widely considered suitable for service use, termination over being unable to do so with a cannon is a lawsuit waiting to happen. To swipe a comment from Mas Ayoob, the department doesn't bolt the patrol car seats in one position and force everyone to drive that way.

I expect the M&P series would be much easier to fit to her hand, however, the .45 is on a larger frame than the 9/.40/357 Sig models. I would suggest the full size M&P rather than a compact. I've seen too many ladies with issues with compact guns that don't exist when using the full size version. If you just gotta go with a Glock, the Generation 4 has interchangable backstraps. There have been some (recoil spring?) issues with them, make sure they've been resolved if going this route.

Please advise how this comes out if you can.

I'm really curious as to the thought process behind the option of the 357 Sig. (I have a feeling el Jefe is much into the mythical "stopping power" thing.) The 100 or so fps extra over 9mm +P comes at a price of much more expensive ammo and a truly awful muzzle blast & flash. I frankly think most folks would be better off with the 9mm and good hits than the alternative. Does save money on flash/bang grenades though.

I have owned a 45c and it is a great little .45. With the size S grip in, she should be able to handle the weapon. The M&P 45c still has almost a full size grip for someone with smaller hands. I would recommend trying to get her one to try it on for size. I think that she should not have any problems handling the 45c. It still has a larger sized grip even though it is listed as a compact. Even at that, she could use the pinky extension mags. The M&P is a very soft shooting .45. I personally hate a Glock .45 ( Still own a few Glocks just not in .45 ). Have tried everyone of them, even the SF versions and they eat me alive. The M&P, I would shoot all day long.

Am also curious as to how this turns out. Please keep us posted.

Thanks all.

Today....we will try a G19 and a G22 as a test.
I
I know an officer who has a M&P 45 svc size and I will get her to try that one too.

I was watching the gun recoil in one hand drills and the angle was up towards 40 degrees. No arm or upper body strength to control .357 sig.

There was many misfires where there were primer strikes and slight bullet push with remington ball. I later shot those rounds just to make sure it was not the ammo. They all went bang.

I will keep y'all updated.

Sorry but I have to say that if she cannot handle the gun, what is she going to do when up against a larger, disorderly person or an irate spouse during a domestic problem?

While practice, practice and more practice can help with the firearm issue, she will be on the streets alone and backup is not always available.

I had to pull a large drunken man off a 5'4" officer before he could choke her to death.

My large size has kept me from having to go hands on many times. A small framed officer, male or female, is going to be challenged more than a person of size.

*** Glock M19 9mm
*** Taser or Double Tap.
Everyone on my Agency is required to carry and qualify with Sig-Sauer P-229 .40. Small Female Officers seen to do ok with this weapon and load.
However a lot of Officers like and are allow to carry (private purchase) Glocks in .40 cal.

I had a similar issue brought to me by a sheriff that I was good friends with. He had a deputy just like you describe that was a good deputy in all other regards but was not able to qualify on her handgun (they issued Beretta's at the time) so I brought a wide assortment of guns to the range and worked with her. The two that she did the best with my M&P .45 and my Springfield Armory 1911A1 "Loaded" .

The ergonomics were superior for her and she was able to very easily qualify. The sheriff allowed her to do her quals with my 1911 as the department was going to switch out of the Beretta's to 1911's next month anyway so we were ahead of the curve.

She did much better with my M&P than my 1911 but the point is the ergonomics with the small back strap installed made a huge difference.

The sheriff came out to see how things were going and asked to try my M&P. He was amazed at how well it felt and performed for him. His assessment was that they maybe should have tried the M&P in their trials. However, he is a huge 1911 guy.

The interesting part of all of this to me was that after they changed over and did their familiarization and training was that scores in the entire department went up almost 20% and the biggest change was not in the skilled officers but rather in the officers that were just barely making it to the officers that weren't qualifying at all.

Maybe you will have a similar experience in introducing an M&P .45 to the equation.

Randy

She passed all physical requirements of the dept. Maybe I worded it wrong.....new shooter, lacks necessary fundamentals to be proficient with a handgun and then give her a small hard kicken gun which has affected her mentally. She just happens to be small in stature.

I told her last night improvement in the handgun arena is up to her....she just needs the correct gun in her hands and in my opinion .357 sig was the wrong caliber to go for our smaller hand and "weaker" shooters.

I don't make those decisions...just have to deal with the end results in the firearms range.

I steer in the right direction but its up the the officer to train on their own.

I doubt the G22/23 is a winning choice for your situation. They have a pretty bad reputation for inconsistent unreliability (check the 10-8 forums, on which there are at least 2 long strings about these well documented problems). LAPD had a horrible time with their recent testing and as I recall still prohibit those; to make it worse, Glock threatened to sue if they disclosed the test results. (Go ahead and file - the CR11b sanctions beating would be fun to watch.) The .40 is not really any better in terms of recoil - it's kind of snappy in a light gun, although I found it to be not bad at all in a friend's issued USP.
As for the M&P in .357 Sig, check with the NCHP. I think Sgt. Freuhler in training is still the right guy to talk to. The M&P in 40 is getting pretty common; I've been told the Oregon State Police have now adopted it (after experiences similar to LAPD's). Washington State Patrol switched to the M&P a couple years ago, and I have been told by an armorer/instructor friend than other than a few new model type teething problems they have been happy with it. I can put you in touch if need be. Drop me a PM.
Hilton Yam and Gary Roberts have both done extensive testing of the M&P 45s, and written some pretty positive comments - these can also be found on 10-8 as I recall. I was in a class with an FBI instructor this summer, and he has found that they have pretty good luck with the G21 being easier to shoot for the weaker or more sensitive shooters than the 40s - he said it's really a big difference.
I am getting older and more arthritic, and doing more of my shooting with lower impulse rounds. The 45 is miles ahead of the 40 for me, and I would probably recommend a 9mm for most anyway. With good quality ammo, all pistol rounds suck equally compared to a rifle.

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NHI, 10-8.

When I was teaching at the academy, we had the same problems with students from the city and county, as both departments issued the Glock 21. People with small hands/stature, both male and female, had difficulties with the G21. I personally didn't like the gun, but could shoot it well. We eventually convinced the Chief and Sheriff respectively to allow either the Glock 17 or 22 as an alternative. The officers had to purchase their own gun AND ammo (picked by the department), and for the most part, they were comfortable with their sidearm, which has a lot of influence on their ability to qualify. The departments remained "Glock only" (as if that really matters) and the officers were happy.

I could comment here, but better judgement says not to.

My dept issues the full size M&P .45s
I know plenty of petite female officers who have handle it just fine.
Your situation sounds more SHOOTER induced than anything having to do with her physical size/gender etc.

If you walk out on to the range thinking you will fail......... well, Self fulfilling prophecy.
As a instructor, Id suggest some "talking to" with her...
most of the stuff i see on the range can be corrected with MENTAL adjustments more than anything having to do with the gun at all

About the upper body strength. She can compensate for a lot of that by keeping the body weight forward. Shoulders forward of the hips, ears forward of the shoulders with a half step forward on the support side (or gun side if one handed) helps quite a bit. The slightly built have to fight against a tendency to lean back to counterbalance the weight of the extended weapon.

I agree....she was already flustered before she even got on the line. When she came up to me....her voice was saying help.

She called and said she could not make it today. this will give me time to round up the M&P45 duty size.

I ran it by Admin and it will likely get shot down and she may have to buy her own weapon if she finds a suitable replacment that will fit her small hands.

I am hoping the MP45 will work. Nightime quals offered no observations in the area of identifying problems and I hate standing next to .357 sig when its fired as the muzzle blast energy rings my ears even with muffs.

I hope to work with her next week.

Shagbd...can you tell me which model of MP your Dept issues? I am assuming the 4" and not the 4.5"? thumb safety or not?

I just remembered my buddies MP45 is getting some fancy optic mounted on the slide. I may have to contact and LE rep for a T/E model.

Full size. 4.5" barrel

There's nothing wrong with the old 9mm.........I'm surprised it's not authorized as part of the "small stature" alternate weapons.

When I worked armed security some of the female guards had issues with the G22 and the .40 round........

.357SIG and .40S&W are two calibers that usually aren't well suited for beginners, especially of the small statured female persuasion.

There are tons of officers who barely qualify with their duty weapons due to caliber and/or frame size not fitting their hands. Makes you wonder how well they'll work that pistol in a fire fight with fear and adrenalin coursing through their bodies?

Sure more training would probably help, but most departments around here operate on a shoestring budget at best, with extra training ammo and range time not being a top priority. It would be better if the individual officer started out with a gun and caliber that is not followed by a tough learning curve, then move up in caliber later if they so choose after fundamentals are second nature.

I wish more departments would realize that opening up the approved gun list and allowing the 9mm to be a viable option would help qualification scores to go up, which promotes the officers confidence in themselves and their abilities.

While I have no hard data to back it up, I can only imagine that there have been officers killed or badly injured in a firefight because they weren't able to shoot their issued duty guns to their own personal full potential.

I don't know if your Dept. requires only Glocks or M&Ps but my best friend, who has very small hands, just bought a Kahr P45 after saying that my M&P (and my 1911s) were too big for him. The Kahr pistols are great for people with small hands. Just a thought.

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Ray K
Mount Dora, Florida

You beat me to it. If she (or he) is too "small in stature" (PC word for short), then they should seek other employment. Bring back the minimum height requirements. 5'9 is a reasonable height for a cop to be. If her hands are too small to handle a Glock 19, I would imagine her other physical attributes are not up to the task. You think she is capable of wrestling with a drunk without help? Being a cop is a physical job. Physical presence alone has calmed down many a situation. I have no problem with women being cops, but to have to bend over backwards to accomodate them is just ridiculous. Seriously, who here would want to ride with someone so small, that the Glock 19 is uncomfortable? I have also seen very small and weak officers get tossed around. On the NYPD, they usually were taken off patrol and put inside where they couldn't get hurt. And many of those were males. A 5'2 police officer does NOT instill a command presence.

First a disclaimer-I am not law enforcement, so I do not wish to step on any toes with this post.

I feel this must be shared, because fact as I have observed is regardless of a person's stature no two unrelated people have the exact same size of hand.


This fact was borne out when me and two other friends went gun shopping before Christmas.All three of us are between 5'11" to 5'9" in height, and we spent about an hour at the counter trying on a 1911, a Sig P226, Beretta PX4, Ruger SR40,Glock 17 Gen 4, and a Springfield XDM.

The only weapon we all agreed on hand fit was the 1911. I have hands big enough that handling a Beretta 92 feels right at home for me and the Gen 4 Glock did not work for my hands. I could reach the trigger and controls adequately but it did not point well for my hands.

When holding the pistol naturally it pointed off-center with my hand in a slight 'h' grip.If I was forced to carry it I could probably adjust well enough to shoot it adequately at the range, but when the adrenaline pumps under a quick draw situation forget about it.There won't be time to 'correct' the grip at a two way range.

Conversely my pro-Glock friend held the G-17 quite nicely but hated the grip of pistols that felt good to my hands.The only pistol in the case we both could agree to like was the Sig P226 and the 1911.

The other pal who is a complete newbie to pistols liked the 1911 , the XDm and the Sig , but couldn't work with anything else in the case.

Experience #2-I took a friend and his girlfriend to the range for the first time. The pistol being used was my Beretta 92, and I never hand any of my weapons off to shoot before showing the shooter how to safe and clear the weapon. After demonstrating the safety procedures I stepped back to have her practice the steps....whereupon she tilted the gun up at the ceiling at an odd angle several times.

I came up thinking she didn't understand how to clear it. The reason she tilted the 92F upward was because her hands were far to small to allow her to pull the slide back holding it in the firing hand as I can.Her thumb was nowhere near the slide release and she couldn't physically reach the trigger on the Beretta in double action mode no matter how she tried to grip the gun. It occured to me then that it was wise she never joined the military as there wasn't a snowballs chance in Hades she could even grip the pistol,much less shoot it in a life or death situation.

With that knowledge in mind I packed up the gear and stopped by the gun counter adjacent to the range to see what backstrap size on the M&P did fit her hand. Turned out the small backstrap insert was the perfect size for the lady to reach the trigger.

I learned a good lesson from that range trip;the size of the gun matters.Had my friends girl showed up in the Air Force for M-9 quals she would be a no go.Even if she passed the qualifier course there is no way she could draw and shoot the pistol under combat stress.

I could spend a year trying to teach her how to shoot an M9 , but it would be wasted time. The gun does not fit her and no amount of instruction can change the laws of physics.Great instruction can equal a nice score on a firing range, but under stress one defaults to a position that fits naturally. Not good news for someone who has to concentrate to shoot a pistol accurately on account of it not being a proper grip size.

I was an Law Enforcement firearms instructor in the early 90's I trained local LEO's in various PD's. A chief asked to me to train his personal on the Sig P-220 he wanted to make the transition from S&W revolvers. The question he asked me do I think the female officers would be able to handle the auto 45acp I told him with practice they would. To make a long story short the Female officers Improved there scores with 45 auto better than with the revolver. Some of these female officers were petiet and did a excellent job in qualifiying with the 45 auto.

It might be more merciful to let her fail and get into a profession better suited for her physical tools.

Added: When we went to the G22 in the mid 90's, we had many officers who couldn't handle it. /sigghhh
They were allowed to qualify with and carry the Smith 3913. It quickly became a target of ridicule and showed the lack of skill, dedication and ability of the officer. Needless to say, most quickly upped their skill level to handle the G22.
Peer pressure was the answer to making them actually meet the job requirements.

This is not an anti-female comment. Anyone who can't perform needs to go.
Sadly my "Chief" for my last 7 years couldn't qualify with any gun during his career, but due to his political ties he always got "remedial training" from one of his croines where he passed every time.
He was as useful as udders on a bull.

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10mm, send the very best.

I have watched in amazement the 5'2" 110 lb owner of karate gym I go to repeatedly take down of our local high school varsity wrestling team members who were 50+ lbs heavier. If this was your student, but just needed a different sized grip to qual, she would be one heck of a LEO.

As for a commanding presence, my uncle was narcotics in brooklyn ny. I once asked how he, who was 5'9" maybe 155 lbs could do this, he replied, 'it is amazing how fast most people give up when looking down the barrel of my gun'. Not wanting to take this thread off topic, hope you can find a good grip for her and let us know how it works out.

Nope height doesn't always matter. A few times I have seen the female MA's have issues here they are quite taller than I am but they are very soft spoken. That hassle is just issuing a traffic ticket. I'm 5'4" and I find that when I use my "man voice" people tend to listen. Just ask my husband he has seen me in action.

Question: Did you have to pass the same tests with the same standards as a male? Again, I have NO problem with women cops, as long as they are held to the same standards as men. When I went through the academy, women didn't have to do the same amount of pushups or situps as men did. They even got more time to complete the 1.5 mile run. I know men inherently have more upper body strength, but I've seen women smoke the men on the PT test. It can be done.

Women are not held to the same standards but in boot camp I was treated more harshly than the men it actually weeded out a few who couldn't handle the mental or physical stress and to this day I outperform my husband at the gym with a higher body fat count and less height. You don't have to make the standards the same because I don't give a **** about how buff I am I am not going to outrun a fit guy that's 5'9" in a 1.5 mile run but I can probably stay on my feet longer grappling because women have a lower center of gravity. That is the problem with "standardizing" you take one group and design everything around them where you should be training in strengths. I'm fast in a short distance but my genetic build makes me more stable for dodging obstacles and doing agility training because of my low center of gravity but you catch me in a long run and well my inseam is a 30 making my stride very short....then again if it were up to me I would be training for long range rifle use.

IMHO, except for a couple of young ladies that I know who are pretty well as big as I am (I'm 6'1", and about 320# - these two are quite a bit lighter), presuming identical physical abilities probably isn't a good idea....

Krav Maga or some other martial arts skills can cover most of the physical differences, IMHO, anyway, with the exception of sheer size issues.

All of that said, the job can be physically demanding, and some mix of endurance and being able to defend oneself and/or take a punch is important. (A good vest is a big help there, too. It will absorb a lot of punishment from purely physical contact - body parts or impact weapons.)

(The Township has a very small female Officer who's just a bit over 40 - she mostly works inside as a Detective. Whenever I see her in full uniform, I tend to react as "wow, she really looks frumpy!". Then the brain kicks in - she's got a vest on, and has her hair tied back and out of the way. I wouldn't want to tangle with her, even though I'm considerably bigger. Running gag - when I pinned on my first badge, she was still in diapers.)

It all boils down to training, I think.... There may be more of a problem for the guys - the smaller ones seem to get into more fights. I think there's a basic "don't fight with the girls" thing mostly still working, but the "I can take that little guy" attitude's out there, too.... You can train around that....

Decades ago, a friend of mine (6'2", 250# or thereabouts at the time) was assigned a very small female partner and a Volvo set up as a cage car. (The car thing was a test.) The two of them had to grab up a belligerent drunk, who was a tad bigger than my friend. They managed to wrestle him to the car. When he saw the car, and took a good hard look at the female Officer, he calmly sat down in the back seat without incident. Apparently he figured it would take a couple guys his size to stuff him into that car, whereas with the pair of Officers he was dealing with, he'd very definitely get hurt a lot....

Anyway, it's not standardization, IMHO, as much as being able to put out a "presence". A guy like me only really has to stand there, other than when the drunk is in an uncooperative mood. A small female has to express "cooperate or it's going to take a while to heal", even if she has no intention of touching the guy.

Not perfect, but workable....

Regards,

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Stu.