If I sweep the safety off during the draw then the only time it has any protective value is while the pistol is in the holster with a safety strap between the hammer and firing pin and with the trigger covered. While it is in my hand, since I deactivated the safety during the draw, how is the safety doing anything at all to to prevent the pistol from unintentionally firing?

Bottom line is: how many accidental/unintentional discharges have there been with the M&P? I think very few.

Poor trigger discipline can occur with any handgun. A striker fired semi auto is not much different that a "cocked and locked" hammer fired gun once the gun has been drawn and readied for use. Trigger discipline, and the training that provides it, is what is important. Using a safety requires a whole other set of training habits to disengage in stressful situations and then to remember to re-engage before holstering. Either way, safety or no, training and habit are critical to safe and effective use. I am not law enforcement, but I see the safety, especially in a striker fired gun like the M&P, as one more thing to have to deal with in the process of deploying a deadly weapon.

I hope I'm not confusing, but my position is the same even if this sounds like I'm switching teams...

I don't think a safety gets in the way if you know your gun. I have trained with my long guns that all have safeties and my handguns that have them and flicking off the safety is instant and actually not even a conscious effort. And returning the safety to 'safe' is also immediate and unconscious. I keep thinking about my trap gun and how I operate it. I never think about taking off the safety or putting it on, it just happens automatically.

I believe if my carry gun had a safety it would also be automatic off and on.

Again my point is you can't depend on a safety, always treat guns as if they are loaded and never point them at anything you don't intend to destroy.

I think Deadeye Dick has some good scenarios where a safety lulls a person into believing a gun is 'safe' but the practice is not. We often hear of shootings where the shooter thought the safety was on....

Because it is then only ready to fire if you want it to, and not when you are holstering and unholstering, and if someone gets a hold of it (which does happen), it's one less thing that can go wrong if they either accidentally pull the trigger, or if a bad guy tries to use it against you. And on striker fired, they're even more desirable, since you do not have the hammer to let you know an ND is about to happen. When I was on the NYPD, we had 3 guns to choose from. Glock 19, SIG 226, S&W 5906. Not ONE ND with the Sig or S&W. Every one of them with the Glock. Same training for all, but different results.

Sure you can have a manual safety on your gun if it makes you feel better but with or without a manual safety the gun can not shoot unless you pull a cantilever trigger that will allow the striker in the pistol to go forward and hit the primer.

Being a striker fired weapon like the Glock the M&P has no hammer to fall and then hit a firing pin and a thumb safety only block the action of a hammer from striking a firing pin even if you do not pull a trigger.

In other design even the revolvers can go off by being dropped, but not a striker fired weapon the reason is there is no hammer that can make the striker hit the center-fire cartridge and go boom!

An M&P is safe even without a thumb safety because it is not what COULD CAUSE the weapon from going off by dropping it is safe only if you do not pull the special cantilever trigger which is usually an intentional act with the outcome expected to be a large boom and recoil from the weapon!

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59,M&P9,40,40C,357,(2)45,G26

Extremely well stated!

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VE40 2010 22A 1110 MPc40 706

Wrong.

The Air Force has a term:"Foreign Object Debris".

Yes I realize all of us are tactical marvels who can check our garments before reholstering. Just note that on a safety-less light trigger firearm one string, piece of debris, or random contact with another object can be enough force to engage the trigger. Before you type a response, can you say with 100% certainty that no foreign object will ever come in contact with the trigger?

Yes , it may be a 1 in a million chance. But the bullet doesn't care how it got fired. It won't know that the super aware tactical ninja owner made a mistake, so it should abort its path towards the head of a 5 year old girl in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the crux of the purpose of a safety. Indeed it increases the margin of error, so that a lapse in concentration results in a safety lesson instead of a dead man. It may be a very remote possibility that our firearms will suffer a negligent discharge. I still take steps to avoid it, because I am not willing to live with a dead bystander's life on my conscience because I felt like being a tactical super ninja.

With the absolute fear that is expressed - I'm surprised most of you can even look at a weapon in a magazine without feeling like a accidental discharge is possible.

Probability of death by firearm yearly 1 in 354,776
Probability of death by steps yearly 1 in 210,640
http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_odds.htm


You'd better pad your stairs, put on a safety harness, & clip in on each rung. Make sure you practice this technique several times a month and don't use anyone else's steps

I know, I am totally off topic and outta bounds.

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VE40 2010 22A 1110 MPc40 706

Fall down the stairs and the only one who's in pain is the user.Try telling a greiving family about that stat when its their kid who gets shot because a weapon owner had a brain fart.


The ultimate reason I carry a weapon is to protect life, in the form of protecting my own and the lives of non-combatants in the area.It only is reasonable for me to ensure I do not needlessly endanger others in the course of carry.

Let's try your little numbers game another way: the odds of using your firearm in a real life or death scenario are probably 1 in a million. And don't try the "there are over 1 million cases a year where a firearm is displayed to stop a crime". There is no corroboration to that at all. As a retired cop I have never pulled my gun. As a working cop, never other than while on duty. Neither have any of my friends or colleagues. And the odds of you having a brain fart during routine handling are much better You're gonna put the added risk of a ND because of that 1 in a million chance.

And not everyone owns or carries a gun. We all take the stairs. And I hope we excercise a BIT more caution while handling a gun than when walking down the stairs

Statistically, riding a motorcyle is more dangerous than skydiving. Would you rather ride your Harley to the 7-11 or jump out of a plane?

Really - that's the best argument you can come up with? Go read "The Tyranny of Cliches". So same arguement:

Tell that to the grieving family who" child was killed by:
(1) Motor vehicle (MVA)37.5%
(2) Poisoning 19.5%
(3) Falls 16.3%
(4) Drowning 3.0%
(5) Fires, Burns,Smoke 2.6%
(6) Medical/Surgical Complication 2.2%
(7) Forces of nature 1.8%
(8) Firearms discharge 0.7%
CAUSES OF DEATH

And a person may go to jail for any careless - reckless - negligent action. Accidents happen with/without safeties, training, prevention, child-proof caps, swim lessons, etc. Its our individual responsibility to understand "when much is given, much is expected." We are more likely to kill someone in a car accident (we practice daily) than have an accidental discharge that results in death. If anyone is at a range with unsafe people - leave - report to range. Our group, gun owners, especially CCW holders, tend to be more law abiding and safer than the general population. So here, whether safety or not, I'll trust any of you before others because I know statistics & probability are on my side.

We can disagree, but we all have each other's back.

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VE40 2010 22A 1110 MPc40 706

[QUOTE=
We can disagree, but we all have each other's back.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that!

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John 3:16, Carry Everyday!

You're stats are completely skewed and you know it. Not everybody owns a gun or comes into contact with one. We all drive, walk up and down stairs, etc. When you get onto the highway, there are literally hundreds of fast moving cars all around you, with drivers changing lanes, entering and exiting the highway. Higher probability of being involved in an accident. Compare actual gun OWNERS (not guns. Some of us one dozens) to AD's. Higher percentage. Do we walk around with hundreds of gun owners surrounding us, ALL of them manipulating their firearms? And since the majority of ND's are not even reported (you think someone calls the cops when they put a hole in their bedroom wall but hit nobody?), the stats you posted are even more inaccurate.

It's simple: you feel you won't EVER have an ND because you practice firearms discipline and keep your finger off the trigger. Professional shooters have had them, but you feel you will never.And WHEN somebody has an ND, they don't always put a bullet into themselves. The little boy playing in the next room catches the bullet. You base your choice to carry that way on the one in a million chance you will actually USE your gun in a real self defense situation. And you refuse to look at the actual cases where a safety saved a life, not to mention the cases that dont even get reported. If you train to unsafe as you draw, the safety offers nothing but benefits. Members of this forum are not representative of actual gun owners. The majority of gun owners shoot a couple hundred rounds a year. And yet they're carring their 6 pound trigger striker fired guns with no safety and MINIMAL training and experience. Accident waiting to happen.

What would be your explanation of accidental shootings vs poisonings?

Interesting read: http://www.politifact.com/florida/st...misadventures/

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VE40 2010 22A 1110 MPc40 706

Since we are on controversial subjects, how many of you think a pistol should NOT fire if the magazine is not inserted in the weapon????????

These safety threads are seriously getting ridiculous...

If you choose a personal weapon with an safety it is YOUR choice!
If you get one issued w/o an safety it is NOT YOUR choice.

No matter what scenario you have to face; it is YOUR responsibility to handle it safely!

YOU have to be familiar with the weapon system and YOU have to practice to be safe and sure about what you do! Nobody else!

I have a M&P40 w/ ambi safety and love it. I don't give a darn if anybody else likes it or not. Because I have to make sure to handle it correctly!

Yes, I prefer weapons with an safety! Why? Because I can!

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Jorge

Same argument. Not everybody has a gun in the house. Everybody has Pine Sol, paint thinner, bug spray, or some other poisonous substance. Stands to reason there will be more poisonings. And while I am an NRA life member, you can't take what they report as gospel, and frankly, i don't support everything they do. Stats and facts are molded to fit the opinion of the company or person saying them. Politicians do it all the time. Obama says he is improving the unemployment numbers, based on the amount of people who are receiving unemployment benefits. He conveniently does not mention those who have exhausted them. For years, cigarette comapnies wouldn't admit their product was causing cancer.Didn't make it the truth, now did it?

And the cigrrette analogy can be taken even further. Smokers object to public places being designated smoke free. They say they have a right to smoke since ti is their choice. They'll even go so far as to say "why don't they regulate sugar and fatty foods?". BecauseIi don't care if you butter your bacon and wash it down with a milkshake. Your arteries are yours to clog if you want. But your smoke DOES affect me since I have to breathe it. When some idiot lets a shot go because he makes a mistake, innocents sometimes pay the price. And I MIGHT feel less strongly about it if there was SOME level of competency that is demonstrated before buying a gun, but I have seen WAY too many unsafe people at MULTIPLE ranges. Go over to youtube and watch some of those gun videos. Makes me cringe.

I believe this statement is quite misleading. A 70 series 1911 can fire when it is dropped on its muzzle, because inertia causes the firing pin to move forward and strike the primer. An 80 series 1911, as well as most (if not all) striker fired pistols have a firing pin block to prevent this from occuring. It has nothing to do with whether or not the pistol has a hammer. Likewise, some revolvers can go bang when dropped and others will not, depending upon how they deal with the firing pin.

I'm a fan of the 1911. I have both 70 series and 80 series pistols. Sometimes I find it ironic that 1911 purists shun the 80 series because of the firing pin safety, but are otherwise comfortable with a weapon that has both a grip and thumb safety. In contrast, many in the polymer crowd shun the thumb and grip safety, but don't even know their gun has a firing pin safety.

I was gonna correct him, but I let it go. Modern firarms of all types have firing pin blocks. Dropping loaded weapons is certainly not something you should do intentionally, but unless it's a cocked revolver or an older 1911, it's not gonna go off.

Again, not exactly true. None of your high-end 1911's have firing pin blocks (e.g., Wilson, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, etc.). Even the new Kimber Super Carry is a 70 series with no firing pin block. In lieu of a firing pin block they sometimes have a titanium firing pin (it's lighter) and a beefed up firing pin spring. Again, some like that solution and others do not. If you want to purchase one in California, you have no choice but to purchase one with a titanium firing pin. Of course it's easy enough to change out if that's your choice.

Likewise, the CZ85 Combat has no firing pin block, but the CZ85B does have one (hence the "B" for block). As a consequence the Combat has the better trigger.

Also, you can purchase a brand new, single action revolver without a firing pin block, and I suspect there are other weapons that can be purchased without one.

My point being, that it makes sense to understand what you're buying and how it works. For example, I don't know if a Browning Hi Power has a firing pin block, but you can bet I would know if I owned one. There are pros and cons with every design, and you are best served by understanding them.

So, bringing this back to the OP's topic, I would want to know exactly how the M&P's thumb safety works. Does it block the trigger or the firing pin? What happens if it breaks off or fails? Can I rack the slide with it engaged? Does it affect the trigger pull or trigger reset? How firmly does it set and release? Does it disengage down like a 1911 (which I believe it does) or up like a 3rd gen S&W? Can one ride it with a high thumb hold or is it too weak for this? Is it a MIM part, quality cast part, or tooled steel (I'm betting MIM)? Is it ambi or single sided or reversible? When it's on the pistol can it be ignored like a 3rd gen S&W, or must it be deployed? Can it be removed at a later date if one decides he or she doesn't like it?

You guys keep sidestepping around the numbskulls that point their weapons at people or wave them around BECAUSE the safety is on. Careless for sure, but it's a big world and people do it.

I would bet more 'injuries to others' ND's happen on guns with safeties than without. I don't know how to look up the stats or whether to believe what I would find, but a clothing mishap may cause a gun to discharge, but it's not going to hit a kid down the street.

Horseplay and carelessness 'because the safety is on' is something I hear about more often.

My reason for not having a safety is different from others. How many out there practice clearing a type 3 malfunction? While I haven't tried it on an M&P, when I rack the slide hard 3 times on guns with a thumb safety, if I'm not careful I ram my hand into the safety. Let me tell you, it doesn't feel good. That may be just me and I always rack the slide with an overhand grip. Keeps the gun pointed in which is a good habit to get into.

I'm not against manual safeties. I'm also not naive enough to think enough to think I'll never have an accidental discharge if I'm not careful 100% of the time. I think "I've been around guns my whole life, I'll never have a negligent discharge". Then I think that's probably what almost everyone thought before they had a negligent discharge.

I also don't buy the argument of the safety maybe costing you your life in a gun fight. If you practice enough, flipping off that safety will be second nature.

I frequent the NRA HQ range - feel safe - the duty range instructor keeps a great eye on shooters, they know who the new shooters are - they have asked people to leave who continued to demo unsafe actions.

Remember the hospital is the #1 place people die, so if you want to live - avoid the place

Another interesting read: http://www.medlockgunrange.com/index...do_pdf=1&id=17

"Since 1930, the number of annual fatal firearms accidents has decreased 56%, while the number of privately owned
guns has quadrupled and the U.S. Population ahs doubled. (National Center for Health Statistics, National Safety
Council, Bureau of Census, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and firearms industry reports.)"

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VE40 2010 22A 1110 MPc40 706

I think I have read each and every post in this thread. The argument about safeties, hammers and triggers all have their merits. All designs are not only to help us be safe but also (and maybe primarily) to keep manufacturers from being sued. After all, the intent for them to make them and the reason we buy them is to shoot them, right?
I believe our best safety takes place upstream before any of these come into play.

I believe your holster is your best safety devise of all both in the moment and after the fact.

What are the odds of shooting a gun while it is in the holster?
As soon as a weapon is drawn, the user is at risk regardless of safeties or lack of. Once we have access to the trigger, risk accelerates and regardless of equipment the burden boils down to the user and his/her decisions and actions that follow.

I believe the best safety is your holster.

Legally, an accidental discharge or a righteous shooting will be costly. So long as it is in the holster, there is no threat of legal action costing you time, money, potiential loss of income or jail time. Even brandishing your weapon gets you jail time but only if you take it out of the holster.

The endless arguing about whether one is in the chamber or whether a manual safety all takes place after the gun is removed from a holster (or should). For that reason, my mindset is to NEVER remove it from the holster without the belief it is ready to fire. If I draw it, I am either making it safe or making ready but always I am believing it is dangerous. My holster is MY safety.

The NRA's first rule of safety is to always point it in a safe direction. The assumption here is that it is in your hand. The rule is to make us practice, use and assume the gun is loaded.

Following in that same vein of thought, I believe that the mindset for me is to believe that when it is drawn it is ready to fire. I have no desire to check safeties, hammers. Using other safety features gives me a false sense of security.

All that said, i own varing types both with and without. I humbly think that having varying types can be a detrament. Rote repetition is our best training device. But no matter how trained or how much we practice, a crisis brings out the worst in all of us.

My mindset is that when I draw it, it is hot. I believe it and I set mine up that way. It is not infallible-it is the best I know for me to do.

The greatest problem with this is reholstering after we relaxed and the danger, of course, is having your finger or clothing catch on the trigger.
I have the mindset to think before I move, remove my finger from within the guard and watch the gun as I move it back into the holster.

Lastly, redundacy is today's preferred safety slogan. It is necessary and works for the masses when many use the same equipment where some have different levels of training or experience. Right or wrong, I discount this as this is just me and just my gun. In this case, I am only responsible for me, not 59 others who borrow it. If I rented one or sold one, I would feel differenlty about this.

It's not perfect but if something worked perfectly, we wouldn't need a discussion nor have a debate. In spite of varying opinions, there are millions of guns out there and many days go by without incident by those you are good citizens. Say that about cars, motorcycles etc. (I have 2 motorcycles BTW)

I have just bought another without a manual safety, if this is my last post...maybe I was wrong. :0)

You keep saying that a striker fired gun won't go off if you drop it, big deal I have never dropped a gun in my life, but it surely will go bang if you pull the trigger, intentional or not!... Come to think of it, since I have never dropped a gun in my life, I must be one of the perfect ones and maybe I don't need any stinkin safety on my gun cause I will never mess up and have an accident... Hummmmm, sure would increase the speed of my quick draw and of course I wouldn't have to be bothered with flicking off that confounded safety cause I can't seem to remember I have a safety on my gun, but I can most certainly remember every other rule of gun safety and operation... Do you realize that you are putting a mechanical piece of equipment (possibility of failure) in to the hand and mind of a less the perfect human being and you are expecting 100% perfection, meaning there will NEVER be an accident?...REALLY?

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YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!...

He's saying that a safety lessens the possibility of an ND and you know it, but you'll twist his statement to support your views. There have been many documented cases of safeties preventing a tragedy. Just find me some that show how they have caused one. And he's not saying they should even be mandatory, he's just pointing out the absolute arrogance of people who are 100% convinced that they will never make a mistake.

I have no use for a mechanical safety on any of my self defense weapons and will never use one.
If you feel differently that is swell and puhleeze understand that you will not sway my belief with your ridiculous arguments.
I think some of the folks posting in this thread probably outfit themselves with a helmet, knee and elbow pads, a mouth guard, nutcup, shin guards, buttplug, goggles, ear plugs, steel toed boots, leather gloves, pants, jacket, and a catchers mask then strap on a flap holster containing a 1911 fitted with a magazine disconnect so they can feel safe walking to the mailbox.
Sheesh, let's give it a rest.

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Morality >religion

Really!...is this thread still getting attention!

Do you really believe that we bought our guns with safeties just so we could wave them around like idiots or be careless in every respect putting ourselves and everyone around us in danger??? What the hell are you thinking?... We bought them with safeties to go one more step with the safe handling and operation of our gun for our protection and others around us...You know, something you feel you do not need to do...Why don't you go on you tube and post some the the many videos show ND's involving idiots waving around guns with safeties... I sure there must be many... While you are at it, why don't you post some of those many videos showing the Glocks going bang when they were not supposed to... You know, those pistol with "3 safeties" including that "safe action trigger"... According to Glock, the gun will not go bang unless the trigger is pulled, so how can that be possible if you all keep your finger off the trigger???...I believe Glock also recommends not carrying one in the chamber... Imagine that...

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YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!...

I objected to a safety until I pulled the trigger. There is not much pull until it goes bang.

If you bend your thumb as you draw the Shield you can easily sweep the trigger before the entire gun is out of your pocket.

Russ

You are absolutely right, there is a very short break on my new shield... If there was not a manual safety then I would not carry it with one in the chamber...

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YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!...

Interesting how every gun forum goes here on a regular basis. I've got both M&P's, ( no safety), and 1911's, (3 external safeties). Personally, I feel safer carrying the M&P in C1, but that's me.

I like all types of firearms and since many of them do not have the option of not having a safety, it is only prudent to train as if you do have one and it is on.

I bought my 45C with the thumb safety because I am a die hard 1911 shooter, but after shooting the M&P for several months I removed the safety.

I did this only because the position of the safety does not allow a thumb high hold with my hand configuration. All of my 1911s wear Gunsite lo mount safeties to allow this type of shooting hold, but the M&P does not with my shorter finger reach. I still love the 45C even without a safety.

If I can ever find someone that can custom make a lo mount safety for the 45C I will put it back on.

I bought the thumb safety model FS 9mm because my main range and carry guns are 1911s. Shooting high thumbs is a breeze and like second natural when it comes time to sweep off the safety. Thumbing it back on when reholster is a nice thing to have as well. Glad they make the double stack M&Ps with and without the thumb safety so there are no arguments......wait......uuuh oooooh....

I'm actually glad to see the Shield have a thumb safety as well.

Use it or don't use it when it comes to the Shield. It seems harder to put on than it is to take off which tells me they made it small enough for either preference.

My biggest problem is I can't decide whether to get my M&P40 with a safety or without. Does having a safety lead to increased mechanical problems due to the safety?