Leupold Deltapoint vs Trijicon RMR for M&P CORE?

Hi,

I just bought an M&P 40 pro "CORE" 5" barreled model. I'm looking for a decent Red Dot Sight to try out.

I'm leaning toward the Leupold Deltapoint because of the wider lens which reportedly makes it easier to pick up the red dot both during the draw and during recoil. Unfortunately reliability on it seems spotty and the zero adjustment screws are reportedly finicky.

On the RMR front I'm leaning toward the RMR02 LED model. Apparently the adjustable LED RMR's aren't up to snuff reliability wise yet and have problems in slide mounted applications. So, the disadvantages of the RMR02 would be smaller lens making dot pickup more difficult, dot always staying on which means more frequent battery changes, and automatic brightness adjustment only, which means it might be susceptible to washout in certain situations. The advantage is that it's probably more robust than the Deltapoint and the zero adjustments are easier to use.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

One of the most common questions we get at OST is "Which RMR should I get for my TSD pistol, the RM02 or the RM07?" This is not an easy question to answer, because they're both very good optics.
The RM02 and RM07 both have 6.5 MOA dots (older RM02s have 8 MOA dots but Trijicon recently standardized on 6.5 MOA). This means that the dot will appear to be about 6.5 inches across at 100 yards (or 0.65 inches at 10 yards). This is more than enough accuracy for pistol shooting at any distance.



The main difference between the 02 and 07 is that the latter allows for manual adjustment. The RM07 has buttons on either side of the sight that allow you to brighten or dim the dot, or even turn it off entirely. The RM02, in contrast, has no external controls whatsoever. Instead, it has a sensor that automatically adjusts the brightens of the dot for the ambient conditions.
Which system is better? Well, the RM07's adjustability allows you to adjust the dot for unusual conditions (shooting at night using a flashlight, for example). If your eyes have astigmatisim, it can cause the dot to appear star-like, rather than circular. Many people find that bumping down the brightness a notch helps with this. Finally, if this gun is going to sit in the safe and not be carried for a long time, you can turn it off to save the battery.
The flip side of the RM07's adjustability is that it's possible for it to be wrongly adjusted for the conditions when you need it. Too bright probably isn't a disabling problem, but too dim might be. You could even leave the dot turned off completely and not realize it. Its lack of controls make RM02 pretty much idiot proof. There's no way to turn it off or mis-adjust it. Just replace the battery once a year and the dot will be there for you.


On a carry gun, I prefer the idiot proof, always-on RM02. For a home defense gun where I may want to tailor the dot's brightness to the conditions, or a gun that only gets used occasionally (as a range gun or for hunting, for example) then the RM07's adjustability really comes into its own.

The main thing keeping me away from the RMR07 is the reports of durability problems with it - here is a quote from Doctor Gary K. Roberts taken from pistol-forum.com:

DocGKR said:

We recently completed a 3 year evaluation of RDS equipped pistols in LE use.

Several RDS were tried, including the Trijicon RMR, micro-Aimpoint, as well as Dr Optic, ITI mRDS, and Leupold Deltapoint. After evaluating the available mini-RDS options, the Trijicon RMR was selected as the primary optic for testing. In early 2010, six RMR02 8MOA sights with 4 digit SN’s were installed on the milled slides of four Glocks and 2 M&P’s. These six original RMR02’s now have in excess of 12,000 rounds fired through each one with no RDS failures. Battery life has ranged from 33 mo to 39+ mo of continuous use. Unfortunately this exact model RMR is no longer manufactured.

In early 2011, eighteen adjustable intensity RMR-A’s (RMR06 & RMR07) with 5 digit SN's were were added to the testing. Several of these later RMR’s had trouble holding windage--typically moving 8-10 clicks clockwise over a few hundred rounds of shooting. Unlike the original RMR02’s, NONE of the later RMR’s lasted beyond 5000 rounds and quite a few failed under 2000 rounds. Trijicon immediately repaired each failed optic. Trijicon is clearly aware of the issue, is in the process of identifying failure points, and is instituting engineering changes to increase robustness and durability of the RMR’s. Until those modifications reach production in the next few months, plan on your RMR breaking at some point--send it back to Trijicon and they will repair it, likely with the new upgraded parts.

Click to expand...

If it weren't for these issues I would probably be going for an RMR07.

I'm having the RM07 installed on my slide as we speak. I'll keep you guys in the loop regarding my experiences with it.

I have spoken with Dr. Roberts personally about the problems with RMR's. I have also spoken with Mark Housel at L&M Precision about his experience with the durability issues of RMR's. The consensus seems to be that when the RMR first came out they were using one supplier for their electronics (which was very durable). Ultimately they switched to a second supplier and the issues began. Both RMR02 and RMR07 models have had failure issues since this switch.

Recently Trijicon reportedly released the new internals and we will see how long they last. The one thing I have picked up on from everyone I have spoken with is the RMR is still the hands down choice of all the available optics to mount on a handgun. I am going to make the leap fairly soon in the near future, and when I do I will probably go with the adjustable model because it can be set to work in automatic mode just like the RMR02.

I think I am leaning towards a RMR as well, however I have no idea what model

LSW,

I have the exact sidearm you just purchased (M&P 40 5" pro CORE). I mounted the Trijicon RM07 adjustable LED to it recently and so far could not be happier. It took approximately 5 minutes to install using the S&W supplied mounting bracket and the fit is clean and tight. I like the adjustability of the sight as I tend to drop the brightness 1-2 clicks below what the automatic setting comes on at.

I've only had it to the range twice since the optic mount so only a couple hundred rounds down range with it; but, I've had no problems to date with this setup. When I bought the sight, I was unaware there were reliability issues with it. I'm not a super hard-core shooter so hopefully I won't have any problems for a really long time.

While the sight isn't zeroed in very well yet it appears that co-witnessing the Trijicon with the 3 dot should be very do-able.

The only issue I've run into having this sight on the M&P 40 was in holstering the pistol into my 5.11 tactical rig. The fit was tight at the top where the sight came in contact with the polymer and that caused the slide to draw back about 1/4" when fully seated into the holster. A rat-tail file and about 30 minutes worth of work (on the holster) has solved that problem.

I didn't look at any of the other red dots fitted to the CORE pistol; but, I am totally happy with the Trijicon.

I was a little rushed finishing my previous post and forgot that I wanted to comment on the 6.5 MOA dot used in the Trijicon. I'm in complete agreement with BIGMAC that a 6.5 MOA will provide plenty or accuracy at pistol distances. I spent a lot of time thinking about what MOA factor I'd want on my handgun. I didn't want something too small (like 1 or 3 MOA) for fear I'd have a hard time finding it in the window when I needed it the most. Too large and you sacrifice accuracy. But with a 6.5 MOA, you get about a 1" diameter bullseye on your target at 15 yards. At 15 feet it's gonna be closer to the diameter of your pinky (assuming you're not Andre the Giant). For me, 6.5 MOA was the perfect tradeoff between convenience and shot placement.

After roughly 2 months of having the RMR07 on my 9c I couldn't be happier with it. I carry it everyday and fire it a lot (a lot a lot a lot). I've had no issues whatsoever with it. The other night I was shooting at a chemical light (glow stick) in total darkness at 25 yards. Nailed it after only 2 tries. The 6.5 MOA is perfect mix of quick acquisition and precision. Couldn't be happier with this setup. I will, however, be replacing my solid black front sight with one of those Dawson Precision sights.

I just got a 5" C.O.R.E. yesterday (I had a Deltapoint on another gun). I just removed the iron rear sight while I dialed in the Deltapoint (because it blocks the locking screws), then I put the rear sight back on for co-witness. I was thinking about buying a new RMR 07, but I guess I just saved close to $600.

BTW, my gun is very accurate with 147 FMJ bullets (130 PF) and it shoots to point of aim with the factory iron sights with that load.

Well I just got a Smith CORE last week and order a Leupold Deltapoint for it. Put it on gun and tighten it down and the red dot shorted out. You could loosen up screws that hold it down and it would work. Tighten down screws and it would quit working. Called Leupold and they said it had to be sent back but it would take two weeks for turnaround. I called my supplier and they sent me another one in place of the one not working. Well guess what it done the same thing. As far as I'm concerned they are JUNK. Order a Trijicon RM07 should have by middle of week. Hope to God its better than the Deltapoints.

I put a Deltapoint on mine. The reasons I chose it were the point of the delta can be used when wanting to target shoot, and the size does make it easier to acquire the target. I do not like the fact the locking screws are in the back of the sight. I am ordering new wrenches to remedy that. I do like the fact it is motion activated to turn on, plus automatically adjusts the brightness. Mine has been 100% reliable so far. I have not had any problems shorting out at all. I've heard the Trijicons with the tritium/fiber lights are hard to see in bright sunlight? I nearly went with the JPoint instead. That might be a good 3rd option.

I have had the Deltapoint on mine for over a year now and over 5000 rnds and it has not missed a beat. I like the fact it turns on and off automatic and the triangle dot is great , I sighted it in for the tip of the triangle and have not had to readjust it since the first time . I have taken it off once at about 2000 rd. mark and put it back on and it held its zero great.. Leupold did send me some spare screws and a spare wrench which I bent to fit the lock screws but have not had to use yet..

Deltapoint all the way. I went through this same exercise years ago and settled on the Leupold based on my own comparison, product reviews, and advice from fellow shooters. I have three of them now....for my old eyes they are a must. There is some low end junk out there, but all of the one's you are looking at are top tier. I just happen to think the Deltapoint is the 'best in class.' I love the Aimpoint Micro as well. Fantastic quality and clarity, although it is higher and heavier. I would also look at the new Zeiss Conquest model. I have yet to see one in person, but every Zeiss optic I every seen/used are unbelievable....the best. I have no doubt this is a good one as well.

One other consideration is the mounting system. The Deltapoint comes with a variety of mounts specific to various guns. Can't tell you if the M&P is in there, all of mine are on revolvers, 625, 627, 629.....and their system provides for a 'custom' fit. The other systems rely on some other generic attachment ultimately raising the sight line. The leupold is low and compact. Good stuff

Good luck

Is the CORE still coming with the coupon? I'm in the market for a replacement for my full size I just sold. It's a three way battle between CORE, Pro and G34 picking up the rear.

Mine didn't come with a coupon. I just bought it a few weeks ago. Check Ebay you might find a deal on a sight. I saw a Tasco Optima 2000 that looked interesting for $80.00 on there. Not sure if it would fit, but it looked like it might. JPoints are quite a bit cheaper and they co-witness and will fit.

TRIJICON no doubt about it... had the luxury of mounting ALL options that S&W set up for the pistol and the TRIJICON was by far the best and easist to set the way I want it. Even sighting it was better... and the dot can be super bright or off or anything in between. Pricier for sure but a no brainer to me....my $0.02

Buck44 said:

Well I just got a Smith CORE last week and order a Leupold Deltapoint for it. Put it on gun and tighten it down and the red dot shorted out. You could loosen up screws that hold it down and it would work. Tighten down screws and it would quit working. Called Leupold and they said it had to be sent back but it would take two weeks for turnaround. I called my supplier and they sent me another one in place of the one not working. Well guess what it done the same thing. As far as I'm concerned they are JUNK. Order a Trijicon RM07 should have by middle of week. Hope to God its better than the Deltapoints.

Click to expand...

My Delta Point (3 MOA) did the same thing.

It is not the sight but the flimsy mounting plates that S&W provides to mount the optic. I could see that the mounting plate was not mounting flush to the top of the slide when the sight was being tightened down.

I removed the optic and put the plate in my vise to bend it ever so slightly. After I remounted the optic, no more problems.

I have put approximately 500 rounds through the pistol and everything seems OK.

Someone with a machining background could manufacture slightly heavier/more rigid plates and probably have a nice little side business.

Anyone here have experience with the Burris Fastfire? About half the price as the Trijicon.

I have owned 4 Burris FastFire IIIs. They are a fantastic sight for the money (my only complaint is the dot is a little dim in bright daylight conditions). Unfortunately, there is no fitment for them on the C.O.R.E.