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11-09-2013, 11:30 AM
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One in the Chamber?
For those individuals that actively carry, do you have round in the chamber? Seems that the element of surprise goes away if one has to chamber a round!
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11-09-2013, 11:38 AM
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This is one of the most common questions right behind 'Butter or cheese on your broccoli ? '
I carry one in the chamber on all my guns, whether they have a safety or not.
.
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11-09-2013, 11:58 AM
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A round is in the chamber! In a crisis, seconds count. Furthermore, you may be in a physical confrontation where one arm is otherwise occupied. With the exception of a Colt SAA, it is safe to carry a round in the chamber.
I dispute the butter v cheese argument. A concealed weapon is not a badge of authority, it is there for use in an unexpected event. If you expect trouble, stay away or bring friends with rifles.
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11-09-2013, 11:58 AM
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No credible instructor teaches carrying an gun for SD without one in the chamber. This is not 1860, guns today are safe. Striker fired guns are safe. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire it, problem solved.
Last edited by S&W45Colt; 11-10-2013 at 09:41 PM.
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11-09-2013, 11:59 AM
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Yes always, no matter what gun I carry. If you carry with an empty chamber, you might as well carry a brick.
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11-09-2013, 12:02 PM
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yes always safety or no safety
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11-09-2013, 12:10 PM
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Just a note about 1860 the men packed all six hammer down between chambers. This is the same way I carry my NAA .22.
When I got my first tupperwhere Glock I went condition II . Because I had a soft suede holster and did not trust it. No Mexican carry either for the plastic.
If you don't feel comfortable with one in the pipe go wheel gun.
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11-09-2013, 12:12 PM
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Chambered. Always.
And while we're at it, which is better - magazine disconnect or no?
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11-09-2013, 12:23 PM
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Yup... Always loaded to +1.
In typical 'Have one chambered?' threads, people always bring up the Israeli Rack, that was developed for military personnel also carrying long guns. Reportedly, civilian training there is now taught to carry with a round chambered.
There's also the 'Tueller Drill' scenario. Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Can one draw, chamber a round and get off a successful shot to stop an oncoming attacker with a knife? It's hard enough to do with a round already chambered.
Just a couple things that always seem to come up, so I figured I'd mention them early on.
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11-09-2013, 12:26 PM
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Old school thinking always was that a gun on your person should be loaded; when the gun is set down and beyond your immediate control, unloaded. Still makes sense to me.
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11-09-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUBA-Chokwe
For those individuals that actively carry, do you have round in the chamber? Seems that the element of surprise goes away if one has to chamber a round!
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KUBA
You may as well pack an empty weapon if you plan to pack without a round in the chamber.
Not only does it take away the element of surprise it will introduce the element of death trying to chamber a round while wetting your pants.
Russ
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11-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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I've never really understood why anyone would carry w/an empty chamber. Police do not carry that way b/c the unexpected event will be on you before you can draw from concealment, rack the slide & shoot accurately. Most modern semi autos have a long trigger pull, like a revolver, and are designed to be carried in condition one (round chambered).
IMHO those who are not comfortable w/a round chambered should carry a revolver.
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11-09-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Lake
This is one of the most common questions right behind 'Butter or cheese on your broccoli ? '
I carry one in the chamber on all my guns, whether they have a safety or not.
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Hey now I like both on my broccoli.
I thought not carrying one under the hammer went out with the Ol'West where accidental discharges were easy and they carried their folding money in that chamber rolled up.
Give me the one in the pipe also and what's a safety. Even my firearms in the lock boxes have one in chamber never know which I would grab if an emergency arose and no safety on them either.
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11-09-2013, 01:56 PM
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absolutely. Last thing you want to to do while under stress is rack the slide
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11-09-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUBA-Chokwe
For those individuals that actively carry, do you have round in the chamber? Seems that the element of surprise goes away if one has to chamber a round!
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Do you know of any police agency that tells its officers to carry in Condition 3 (no round in the chamber, but loaded magazine).
Why would you ask this?
Are you concerned about "safety?" If so, remember to keep your finger OFF the trigger until your sights are on the target and you are ready to fire.
Any weapon which cannot be carried ready for immediate use is not a suitable weapon for defense and should be avoided for such purpose.
If you think you will always have "both hands free" to chamber a round, you are perhaps not thinking about the many variables. First is the speed required in a reactive situation. Second is the fact that your other hand may be "otherwise occupied" fending off a vicious beating, it may be pinned under your body, it may have been severely injured preventing its use, it may be fighting off a knife, it may be shielding or forcefully moving a loved one to safety, etc.
If you are so uncomfortable that you are not sure about a round in teh chamber, then you might want to re-think having a weapon for defense.
Even when the military had the 1911, Condition 1 was normal on patrols or "outside the wire." The objection people had to going from Condition 1 to Condition 3 was not being sure of your condition and of too much administrative handling, resulting in the occasional negligent "bang."
Last edited by shawn mccarver; 11-09-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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11-09-2013, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly77
Chambered. Always.
And while we're at it, which is better - magazine disconnect or no?
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Butter or Cheese on the Mag Disconnect?
And yes, always one chambered.
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11-09-2013, 02:44 PM
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If I'm carrying it, there's a round in the chamber.
Tim
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11-09-2013, 03:51 PM
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I always keep one in the chamber. Unless im cleaning her.
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11-09-2013, 04:12 PM
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A side arm is a quick response weapon and what good is it really, if you can not respond quickly ? Therefore, I second many of the comments to carry with a chambered round - especially in these days DA autos'
For many years I carried a 9 mm Browning High Power with the hammer back and a round chambered.
I recall my (military) firearms instructor said something to the effect that; If your pistol is 'not at the ready' you better grind off the front sight....cause it's gonna hurt when the bad guy shoves your gun up your.....(decorum prevents me finishing the comment - butt - you get the idea).
If you are not carrying with a chambered round, you're carrying a club !
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11-09-2013, 04:19 PM
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One in the chamber at all times when that particular gun is designated as my SD weapon.
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11-09-2013, 05:48 PM
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Please!!!!! No more threads on what condition to carry. Search is your friend.
Steve
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11-09-2013, 06:59 PM
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Had a bunch here, but this was the most important:
Search your question next time before posting please. This has been asked and answered before. Thank you and best of luck.
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11-09-2013, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Please!!!!! No more threads on what condition to carry. Search is your friend.
Steve
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I feel your pain, but remember that newbies are not always aware that they can do this. We're here to both teach and learn.
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11-09-2013, 07:18 PM
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Why yes of course!
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11-09-2013, 07:33 PM
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Time is of the essence when defending your life. If you have to rack in a round, it's costing you valuable time.
Also, the thought of racking the slide before a shot means that you believe you'll have both hands free. Sure, there are ways to rack the gun with one hand, but they are unreliable and slow.
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11-09-2013, 07:36 PM
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If you don't have one in the chamber you might as well just carry a pocket of small rocks.
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11-09-2013, 07:53 PM
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Condition 1 if the gun is holstered on my hip...Always.
With proper weapons handling it is safer to carry with one in the chamber. Why would I say safer? Simple, the only person that can be shot with one in the chamber (with safe handling) is the bad guy.
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11-09-2013, 08:42 PM
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11-09-2013, 08:54 PM
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Always 1 in the chamber.. I remember when I 1st started carrying I tried to convince myself I would have time to chamber a round and it would be safer.
I struggled with it for a few weeks and went over many scenarios in my head. I came to the conclusion on my own that if you are going to CC a round in the chamber is the only reasonable option. I worked through this with my wife who carries as well. She took more time than me to come to same conclusion. We both finally realized that in a self defense situation it as safer to have a gun with a chambered round or not to have a gun at all. And to this day we both carry all guns chambered. Even the safe guns that are there for home protection..are chambered. I have a safe full of guns. The rule for both of us is if the gun has a magazine in it it is loaded and chambered. All other guns are stored with out mags. That way in a hostile situation there is no need to try to think what is what. We also keep the loaded guns on the door rack not in the safe proper. It keeps things simple.
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11-09-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Lake
This is one of the most common questions right behind 'Butter or cheese on your broccoli ? '
I carry one in the chamber on all my guns, whether they have a safety or not.
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My only disagreement with your response: Lightly sautéed in butter and served with a crowning dollop of Best Foods mayonnaise.
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11-09-2013, 11:17 PM
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Yes one in the chamber. I am not a fan of Israeli carry ( empty chamber) although I have several friends that carry their Glocks this way.
I think Israeli carry is far too slow and has been demonstrated to be so.
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11-09-2013, 11:23 PM
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Alternative response: No.
The increased risk is NOT worth it for me, considering the modest gain in time -- half a second. I can present the weapon, and chamber a round, in a very short period of time. Anyone who practices can.
Among other things, I am then sure I have a live round in the chamber.
And, I have a little more time to figure out what is going on.
For those who want to draw and shoot in a split second, I hope they have done all of the decision-making and quick reaction training that really is needed to back that sort of thing up.
In Afghanistan, I did not chamber a round while on the FOB. Going in and out of facilities with clearing barrels, I saw a lot of uncertain behavior and heard about a number of NDs -- into the barrel. With no round in the chamber, I put myself one step ahead of that problem. I had a roomie who would chamber and unchamber rounds in the man-can. I reminded him the walls were poncho-liner thick, and I was on the other side -- his actions were the natural by-product of thinking he had to carry his M9 with a round in the chamber all the time.
Once the Green-on-Blue thing started happening, which was after my last time there, I would have gone over to carrying a round in the chamber.
(In Bosnia, many years ago, I loaned a M11 to a visiting fireman, who took it out on a road trip, and came back to Tuzla -- and put a round in the barrel -- and got "arrested" by the MPs).
If I am someplace where the danger is so high that I need to have a round in the chamber, here in the States, I need to re-evaluate -- and head home.
Increased handling of the gun, loading and unloading live rounds, leads to increased risk. Chambering rounds repeatedly leads to damage to the rounds. Chambering and unchambering leads to NDs. Just statistically speaking. To me that risk outweighs the modestly increased risk caused by my being able to bring the gun into battery a little more slowly.
Do people leave their guns loaded, with a round in the chamber, all the time? Around the house? Are there children around? What about a dropped gun? (I know guns are "safe" now when they land, but the greater danger is the dropper grasps for the gun as it falls...). More risk factors.
So, if you are thinking you would be more comfortable with an unloaded chamber, and almost as fast -- then you are free to go with your intuition on this one.
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Last edited by S&W Rover; 11-10-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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11-09-2013, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews
Had a bunch here, but this was the most important:
Search your question next time before posting please. This has been asked and answered before. Thank you and best of luck.
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Yes, I am a new member. "I am in training". A fully loaded weapon contradicts all that I have been taught for over 65 years. What has had been said here, confirms what I have had to re-learn. Before I start to carry, I wish to be well educated and very skilled at handling and using my firearm. I am well on my way with the weapon handling and shooting skills. I do not wish to be a sheep!
This forum is one of my many sources of information to get a hands on education. Many here have been carrying for many years. They are all good sources for information. I am sure that they must have already gone through what I am learning.
I am now at the point in my life, with a lot of traveling into areas that I have never been before, many heavily populated, where I feel "the need to protect myself and those dear to me". The world is changing! There are those that I am associated with that lack the experience that many forum members have and that am gaining. I am using your support.
I am soon to be permitted for CCW in 36 states. I still have more to learn, I don't want to make foolish mistakes. One of those things is to how better to use the forums search tools.
I will start to CC carry soon, however you and others will never see it. Thank you, I appreciate all that have responded to my post.
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11-10-2013, 12:06 AM
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Don't worry about it. Lots of us are not searching experts. I try to remember to give it a whirl but rarely find what I am looking for. Consider carrying on your belt, if you possibly can.
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11-10-2013, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W Rover
Among other things, I am then sure I have a live round in the chamber.
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Really? Are you sure? How can you be sure unless you do a chamber check? What if you short stroked the slide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUBA-Chokwe
A fully loaded weapon contradicts all that I have been taught for over 65 years.
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I hear you loud and clear. It does seem contrary, doesn't it?
The firearms safety rules, according to the NRA, are: - Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
- Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
- Always keep the firearm unloaded until ready to use.
Well, keeping a round in the chamber is in keeping with rule 3. Since you are carrying for defense, you are ready to use it. Keeping it in a properly worn holster takes care of rule 1 by keeping the muzzle pointed down. Rule 2 is handled by having the trigger covered and not putting your finger on the trigger until you are pointed at the target.
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11-10-2013, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W Rover
Alternative response: No.
The increased risk is NOT worth it for me, considering the modest gain in time -- half a second. I can present the weapon, and chamber a round, in a very short period of time. Anyone who practices can.
Among other things, I am then sure I have a live round in the chamber.
And, I have a little more time to figure out what is going on.
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While you cite military experience, you are not referring to instances where you may be ambushed at any second, like you may be at a shopping mall, or a stoplight in your car.
I'm sure your weapon was loaded and you were ready to fire when danger was present.
Consider while you walk around with an unloaded weapon, that a person may grab your arm and put a knife to your throat demanding money at any time.
Is that when you want to be chambering a round?
Also consider this: While most of us are relatively sure that when we rack the slide all the moving parts of our guns will function properly and a round will be stripped from the magazine and load properly into the chamber......
But that isn't always the case, mechanics do fail, and under stress maybe we don't properly rack the slide or a shirt tail gets caught in the slide or any one of a million little things could happen. Probably not, but you could fail to load that round.
My opinion only, and each of us has to do what lets us sleep at night.
.
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11-10-2013, 02:42 AM
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Unless you are a member of the IDF (Isreali Defense Force), then have a round in the chamber. You may not think it, but half a second could cost you your life. It takes that little time to pull a trigger. Just food for thought...
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11-10-2013, 03:28 AM
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My understanding of the Israeli Carry technique is that it was developed because they were passing out handguns to about anybody who asked, and since they were from mixed sources, it was easier to just teach everybody to keep all the safeties off and chamber a round as needed.
Sounds nuts, but off the top of my head, it has me thinking about the "two guys hold up a Cop Bar" scene where you hear a couple dozen guns being cocked as their intent is noted. In short, the feeling that enough guns would be around to either deter the BG, or have a few people ready to rock pretty quickly.
That said, I'd never do that.... My EDC, outdoors, is a small 1911. Condition One (cocked & locked). I automatically wipe the safety when presenting, and put it back on when there's a break in the action. Tested on the range, but, fortunately never in the field.
Around the house, it's an M&P40C or 40FS. Neither have an external safety, but I habitually try to flick 'em off and on .... It's much safer to try to operate a control that's not there that to forget to use one that's there.
IAC, the gun on my belt is ready to go.... I don't think I'd manage to rack the slide and load a round if I actually needed it.
With an M&P and similar Tuperguns, IMHO, the thumb safety isn't necessary, but if you're used to a thumb safety, it might be a good idea. Old wheelgun guys (like me) probably can do without one. I transitioned to the 1911 from there, and then added the M&P's, putting the thumb safety in the "don't worry about it" category. (I have a 9C with a thumb safety. Yech.... But YMMV.)
About the magazine safety. Two trains of thought there. Some people feel that dropping the magazine if you're threatened with loss of the firearm is a good idea. IMHO, no - takes too much dexterity, but YMMV. Meantime, it's a complication that may decide to fail at the wrong time. None of my EDC guns (1911's or M&P's) have them. Possibly useful in keeping small fingers from discharging large handguns, but at some point, maybe not....
IMHO, for maximum personal contentment, get one with a thumb safety, and carry Condition One.... PRACTICE the heck out of presenting, flicking off the safety, and then putting your finger onto the trigger immediately before firing. (And moving the safety back ON.)
Caveat: I've not handled one, but it appears that the thumb safety on a Shield is a nuisance at best. Might be a better idea to get one without a thumb safety.
Regards,
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11-10-2013, 09:26 AM
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If my gun isn't chambered, it's because I forgot to bring it. I never forget to bring it.
I understand some don't feel comfortable carrying with 1 in, but run some drills with a friend and you will quickly find that you will have a dreadful disadvantage if, God forbid, someone comes up on you with bad intentions. The only step between being unarmed and effectively defending yourself, should be unholstering the weapon.
Things happen very fast, so if you find yourself in a bad situation with a violent attacker and do not have one in the chamber, you'd better hope he has no knife or gun. Cause by the time you rack that slide, you WILL have new holes. If that were the case, you'd have a better chance if you just resorted to your hands. This is all assuming he is close enough to cause damage immediately.
It's all about responsibility and training. Training gives you confidence and a respect for the weapon. Not having that is a clear indication of lack of training.
Imagine you are sitting in your car at a drive through ATM. You should always be aware of your surroundings, but let's say some jerk has a gun in your face, less than a foot away. So close that he's grabbing your shirt with his other hand, through the car window. You either completely submit, or fight. If you fight, you're going to need to grab his gun and deflect the muzzle away, rather you decide to pull your gun or not. Now let's say you DO NOT have one in. It'd be silly to think you're going to be so collected that you can rack the slide one handed, assuming you are good at doing that in the first place. So you have 2 hands busy and he has one had busy, which will be a deadly disadvantage for you. You would be better off fighting for HIS gun. NOW you do have one in. You can deflect his gun, pull yours, and defend yourself. This would take less than 2 seconds if you train.
There are many many more factors involved, but the bottom line is, if you are going to carry a pistol without one in the chamber, you better hope you only find yourself in situations where the attacker is far enough that you can chamber a round without him being on top of you. If you carry with one in, you are prepared for all scenarios. Based on how fast things happen, I believe a knife would be more effective than an un chambered weapon, in close proximity. Let's hope you don't face ANY bad situations at all, but if you ever do, I pray they are not close proximity.
"Chambering and unchambering leads to NDs."
Not at all. People with a lack of respect for a firearm and disregard for safety while handling them is what leads to ND's. Chambering and un chambering only leads to having to top off the mag. ND's happen for many different reasons. Everyone of those reasons being avoidable, if the handler had respect for the firearm, and discipline when handling them.
I am a firm believer in the phrase, "to each, his own", but there are really no good reasons to carry without one in the chamber. There ARE reasons to be concerned about NOT doing so. Anybody who may have an ND, will have one simply because of their lack of respect for the firearms and the rules in handling one.
You don't step on the gas unless your car is facing in the direction you intend to travel, there are no red lights or stop signs, and nothing in front of you that you do not want to destroy, right? In that same respect, you wouldn't turn the car off at a red light, or crosswalk because you wouldn't be afraid the car might suddenly accelerate forward for no reason. Same thing with carrying a gun. God bless.
Last edited by JColumbus; 11-10-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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11-10-2013, 10:12 AM
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Cops carry with a live round in the chamber.
I remember reading years ago about two VC's that broke into a house and a young member of the household trying to chamber a round in a 1911 to fend them off. The pistol jammed at that point. Death was the result.
Try a force on force course with a number of scenarios for you to work through. Then you will find out how little time you have to react to situations. Remember action beats reaction and you are reacting in a lot of instances. Things happen fast. Be aware.
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11-10-2013, 11:43 AM
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Those (the majority) who say a round in the chamber makes you more ready -- are right. I agree it does.
For those who carry with a round in the chamber, that is right for them.
For me, I'll trade off a little readiness for an increase in safety. And I try to stay alert and aware, to avoid situations that could be potentially dangerous.
There are lots of hypothetical circumstances, and they can be used to justify carrying a weapon with a round in the chamber. If those are realistic scenarios for you, that sounds like a fine approach. My most-likely scenarios that I have in my noggin are not that short-fused.
#1 concern for me is an active shooter. I remember the statements of someone who was in Luby's Cafeteria, who said, if I had just had a gun, I could have ended that. There was a mass murder in Luigi's Restaurant when I lived in Fayetteville. I want a handgun when I go to the mall, or to a restaurant. I think I have time to chamber a round in that case.
I think the best advice is to consider your realistic threat scenarios, and plan accordingly. I am not saying those who carry a round in the chamber are wrong; I am saying that is not right for me most of the time (and there are times when I would chamber a round before going down that road, such as when I go hiking or fishing in an isolated area).
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11-10-2013, 12:12 PM
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Not sure if this has been brought up, but military personnel usually regard the handgun as a secondary to back up a primary assault firearm, carbine, etc. If we're talking about a handgun as a primary SD firearm, chambered carry in a holster is what I consider safe and immediately ready for action. For those of you who recommend carrying a revolver (and I frequently do) a DA/SA semi-auto has the same initial trigger pull before it becomes SA. That's why I carry a P239 with a J Frame as a secondary. To each his own, but I will not give up the tactical advantage of a chambered round in the event I find myself in a fight for my life.
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11-10-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W Rover
Those (the majority) who say a round in the chamber makes you more ready -- are right. I agree it does.
For those who carry with a round in the chamber, that is right for them.
For me, I'll trade off a little readiness for an increase in safety. And I try to stay alert and aware, to avoid situations that could be potentially dangerous.
There are lots of hypothetical circumstances, and they can be used to justify carrying a weapon with a round in the chamber. If those are realistic scenarios for you, that sounds like a fine approach. My most-likely scenarios that I have in my noggin are not that short-fused.
#1 concern for me is an active shooter. I remember the statements of someone who was in Luby's Cafeteria, who said, if I had just had a gun, I could have ended that. There was a mass murder in Luigi's Restaurant when I lived in Fayetteville. I want a handgun when I go to the mall, or to a restaurant. I think I have time to chamber a round in that case.
I think the best advice is to consider your realistic threat scenarios, and plan accordingly. I am not saying those who carry a round in the chamber are wrong; I am saying that is not right for me most of the time (and there are times when I would chamber a round before going down that road, such as when I go hiking or fishing in an isolated area).
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I will agree with you the most important thing is too stay alert and scan. However, there is no such thing in my mind as a "realistic threat scenario." I have seen too many times the statement, " that never happens in this town, neighborhood etc;" and it happened.
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11-10-2013, 12:22 PM
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I agree with carrying chambered, but would prefer a revolver for concealment, but I will say that there are a lot of variables thrown at people who have been involved in use of force incidents and the attacker has been permanently injured or killed.
In some of my training, we were drilled day and night about what deadly force means, the 7 justifications for it, and the continuum/escalation of force. This shows that you have taken the proper escalation of methods to indicate to the attacker that you will eventually kill him/her. One of these being racking a round in the chamber. It is not ideal to not carry a round in chamber, but that is one more thing in your defense should the court case arise...
You used verbal commands- "Get back, I am armed"
You unholstered and yet again, used verbal commands
You racked a round
You pointed it
They still come at you, you fired. Does that give me the most confidence in proving my side? Yes it does...is it the safest? Well, that depends on the situation. In most cases, you should not be waiting til the person is breathing down your neck because they sucker punched you around a corner before you draw.
If you dont think a lawyer would use things like "his gun was named 'the judge'...he believes he holds ultimate power", then you'd be wrong as well...
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11-10-2013, 02:23 PM
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i don't CC yet. (FS 9MM is kinda big)
But if i do i won't. I have always been taught to never put one in the chambers unless you are 100% on using it. But that's me
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11-10-2013, 02:27 PM
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I carry one in the chamber on all my guns, whether they have a safety or not.
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11-10-2013, 03:43 PM
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Yes - always one in chamber and ready. Whether it's my Glock 23, Shield 9, M&P 9 FS, or Sig Sauer P225 (but mostly my Shield).
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11-10-2013, 03:48 PM
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A gun without one in the chamber is just an expensive hammer.
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11-10-2013, 08:17 PM
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ALWAYS ! ALWAYS
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Thanks Bob
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11-10-2013, 08:24 PM
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15 + 1 always. Only time my gun is unloaded is while being cleaned or after the rounds are spent when I'm at the range. Reloaded to 15 + 1 ASAP.
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