I opened my new M&P and went to the range put a box of winchester FMJ 165 grain thru it with no problems what so ever. Took it home cleaned it and then two weeks later had my CCW class and using the same exact ammo it was jamming. Let me kinda of clarify this, the way the class was we would load 5 rounds in the magazine start with one shot, reset, one shot, reset and so on. on the 3rd shot when the slide was coming forward the cartridge jammed. cleared the jam next shot jammed. so went and reset, put five more in and again first two loaded and shot fine (loved the accuracy!) but the 3 third shot jammed. So the range master put 10 in the magazine put all ten through rapidly and then it just seemed to come out of it, didn't get another jam. Just wondering if anyone else has seen this, if it's an issue with how I put the gun together? if its the flat nose ammo? Love the gun, but reliability is a huge deal for me.
pistol jam after cleaning?
- Thread starter Hondaguy
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ginzo
Member
Which M&P?
Don't be offended, this sounds like "limp wristing" Not holding the gun firm enough for the action/slide to rack with enough force to eject/feed the next round. Do a search here or on Google for more info that may help solve the problem.
It's not a bad thing, but if you are new to auto's it can be a common issue.
Don't be offended, this sounds like "limp wristing" Not holding the gun firm enough for the action/slide to rack with enough force to eject/feed the next round. Do a search here or on Google for more info that may help solve the problem.
It's not a bad thing, but if you are new to auto's it can be a common issue.
AR-Getsome
Member
I don't use flat nose ammo. But it could possibly be your problem. Have you shot any different ammo? That way you can really find out if flat nose ammo is your problem.
jimmib
US Veteran
as mentioned possible limp wristing or ammo.... also possible not letting the slide slam home...clean it again and look for any unusual wear or scrape marks for bind points...get some different ammo and try again...enjoy...be safe
Clean the mags also, get a grip and shoot it. Lube gun per manual--not too much!! Don't lube mags.
I see nervous people in carry classes who can't hold a gun right to save them, and are too shook to listen. Makes me wonder how they are going to deal with a real shooting. Last class, one person took three attempts, even after I had shot the gun for them and showed them the right grip.
Suggest a lesson or three and practice, practice.
I see nervous people in carry classes who can't hold a gun right to save them, and are too shook to listen. Makes me wonder how they are going to deal with a real shooting. Last class, one person took three attempts, even after I had shot the gun for them and showed them the right grip.
Suggest a lesson or three and practice, practice.
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Doug M.
Member
I am often concerned that so many issues are diagnosed as "limp wristing", when a defensive firearm needs to work in all conditions, including when one is injured, sweaty, bloody etc and the pistol does not have a firm grip as a result. I have seen reports from pretty savvy instructors debunking the whole "limp wristing" thing by shooting from odd positions, with two fingers, etc.
Ive only played around with semi auto hand guns for 40 years,but I suspect limp wristing is a myth.
Did you clean & lube the gun BEFORE you took the first shot? I have never had ANY issue's with my m&p's. I have also seen "limp wristing" 1st hand (NOT saying this is your problem) when I took my ccl class. Until then I have always thought of it as bs also
I've had some real problems with neglecting magazine cleaning. Found when they were dirty the ammo didn't feed up fast enough to enter the chamber as it should. Once I realized the problem, cleaning made it ok again. Maybe that was just a quirk with my gun but, just sayin.
Fastbolt
Member
I tend to dislike the term "limp-wristing", as the underlying problem often experienced by some shooters has more to do with a less-than-firm grip and an unlocked, or "broken", wrist occurring at exactly the wrong moment during the recoil cycle. It's more of a grip stability/support issue than just a "limpwrist" issue.
As a firearms instructor and armorer I've had more than ample opportunity to see an occasional pistol & shooter combination which just didn't allow for consistently optimal functioning because the shooter couldn't sufficiently stabilize the frame during a critical moment of the recoil cycle. It's happened with shooters using plastic framed pistols, as well as metal framed pistols.
This lack of grip stability usually "robs" force from the recoil spring, and/or doesn't allow the slide to make its full rearward (or forward) run/travel at the proper speed. Feeding requires proper "timing" of the slide run and its cycling, which includes returning & locking the slide & barrel into full battery after stripping, feeding & chambering a round.
Weakened recoil & mag springs, improper lubrication or and/or even fouled magazines can sometimes also be involved, exacerbating the potential for it (shooter influence) to occur and become an issue, as could low powered or over-powered ammo.
Think of it as a Venn Diagram, with the shooter-influence being one part of the diagram, which could interact with other influences to different degrees.
I've seen some folks who couldn't deliberately induce a grip-stability related stoppage no matter how hard they tried, and some folks who couldn't consistently prevent one from happening no matter how hard they tried.
Sometimes it seemed to involve a particular type of pistol, or just the wrong caliber/ammo/pistol combination. (The caliber/ammo combination could speak to the recoil force involved, or perhaps the "dwell" time of the recoil impulse acting within the shooter's grasp.)
I remember one shooter who was involved with agency T&E for a number of different pistols. One range session there was a particular large plastic framed .45 with which that shooter experienced repeated feeding stoppages. All the other shooters that day had no problems with that gun, using that ammo ... and that shooter had no problems with other model guns, including in the same caliber (same ammo). The .45 ran normally for shooters immediately before & after that shooter, but not for that shooter. The shooter had to really work to get a solid grip and locked wrist for the gun to work normally. Everyone else had no such issues.
Sometimes it's seemed to involve a shooter performing something out of the ordinary, distracting them from having the same attention to their grip technique. They seemed unable to grip, support & stabilize the frame in the manner to which they normally accustomed (meaning not shooting the gun slowly, standing in a balanced, comfortable position and using 2 hands for slow-fire shooting).
Other times it seemed to only happen when the shooter was shooting while moving, and their grip support, and their hand & arm positioning, wasn't consistent. Or, when they were using some cover/barricade and they unintentionally let the gun contact the cover during recoil/cycling, affecting their grip support and wrist lock.
If this potential shooter-related condition wasn't something that could occur (and be corrected), it probably wouldn't be listed as one of the probable causes of feeding problems and other stoppages in so many different pistol armorer manuals by gun companies who do a lot of LE/Gov business & sales.
FWIW, if someone has to stop and think about their grip technique's consistent firmness (not milking it, readjusting, etc) and their locked wrist support for each shot, then it's not hard to see how they might become distracted and lose their focus on the grip when stress or unexpected physical exertions are required.
Train & practice until you can't do it wrong. Then hope the world doesn't throw something unexpected at you which can degrade or interfere with even your trained and ingrained responses.
Short-stroking pump shotguns or revolver DA triggers is something that even trained & experienced shooters may have happen to them at an unexpected moment, in inopportune circumstances. Not hard to see someone potentially failing to sufficiently grip and support a pistol which is recoil-operated during live-fire.
As a firearms instructor and armorer I've had more than ample opportunity to see an occasional pistol & shooter combination which just didn't allow for consistently optimal functioning because the shooter couldn't sufficiently stabilize the frame during a critical moment of the recoil cycle. It's happened with shooters using plastic framed pistols, as well as metal framed pistols.
This lack of grip stability usually "robs" force from the recoil spring, and/or doesn't allow the slide to make its full rearward (or forward) run/travel at the proper speed. Feeding requires proper "timing" of the slide run and its cycling, which includes returning & locking the slide & barrel into full battery after stripping, feeding & chambering a round.
Weakened recoil & mag springs, improper lubrication or and/or even fouled magazines can sometimes also be involved, exacerbating the potential for it (shooter influence) to occur and become an issue, as could low powered or over-powered ammo.
Think of it as a Venn Diagram, with the shooter-influence being one part of the diagram, which could interact with other influences to different degrees.
I've seen some folks who couldn't deliberately induce a grip-stability related stoppage no matter how hard they tried, and some folks who couldn't consistently prevent one from happening no matter how hard they tried.
Sometimes it seemed to involve a particular type of pistol, or just the wrong caliber/ammo/pistol combination. (The caliber/ammo combination could speak to the recoil force involved, or perhaps the "dwell" time of the recoil impulse acting within the shooter's grasp.)
I remember one shooter who was involved with agency T&E for a number of different pistols. One range session there was a particular large plastic framed .45 with which that shooter experienced repeated feeding stoppages. All the other shooters that day had no problems with that gun, using that ammo ... and that shooter had no problems with other model guns, including in the same caliber (same ammo). The .45 ran normally for shooters immediately before & after that shooter, but not for that shooter. The shooter had to really work to get a solid grip and locked wrist for the gun to work normally. Everyone else had no such issues.
Sometimes it's seemed to involve a shooter performing something out of the ordinary, distracting them from having the same attention to their grip technique. They seemed unable to grip, support & stabilize the frame in the manner to which they normally accustomed (meaning not shooting the gun slowly, standing in a balanced, comfortable position and using 2 hands for slow-fire shooting).
Other times it seemed to only happen when the shooter was shooting while moving, and their grip support, and their hand & arm positioning, wasn't consistent. Or, when they were using some cover/barricade and they unintentionally let the gun contact the cover during recoil/cycling, affecting their grip support and wrist lock.
If this potential shooter-related condition wasn't something that could occur (and be corrected), it probably wouldn't be listed as one of the probable causes of feeding problems and other stoppages in so many different pistol armorer manuals by gun companies who do a lot of LE/Gov business & sales.
FWIW, if someone has to stop and think about their grip technique's consistent firmness (not milking it, readjusting, etc) and their locked wrist support for each shot, then it's not hard to see how they might become distracted and lose their focus on the grip when stress or unexpected physical exertions are required.
Train & practice until you can't do it wrong.
Then hope the world doesn't throw something unexpected at you which can degrade or interfere with even your trained and ingrained responses. Short-stroking pump shotguns or revolver DA triggers is something that even trained & experienced shooters may have happen to them at an unexpected moment, in inopportune circumstances. Not hard to see someone potentially failing to sufficiently grip and support a pistol which is recoil-operated during live-fire.
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Fastbolt
Member
If your range has an experienced RSO or instructor in attendance, it might be really helpful to ask for some help, and most experienced shooters don't mind helping new shooters.
The trick is to avoid the exuberant, earnest and overly anxious who want to help, but who aren't all that skilled themselves ... or, someone who may themselves be skilled, but are unable to easily apply their skills to identifying, understanding and correcting issues being experienced by other shooters.
Maybe a basic safety and shooting class is offered by a local range, taught by a NRA certified instructor?
It's impossible to diagnose and "correct" some shooter's possible "problems" online. Better to have some experienced and knowledgeable eyes watching what you're doing when you're shooting.
Also, as a new pistol owner/shooter, it's never a bad idea to get some good pointers on the safe handling, manipulation and shooting of a firearm. Developing a safe, good foundation skillset doesn't happen by accident.
Get some experienced help and make your introduction to handgunning a safe, enjoyable and rewarding experience.
Fastbolt
Member
Yep.
Easier problem to momentarily "solve" if you have control of the range and can remove the unhelpful influences.
Not as easy when it's the know-it-all influence that develops the "problem", though.
When it's a large, strong strapping young man who towers over you who's the fellow who can't consistently align/lock his wrist behind his new subcompact 1911, and keeps getting feeding stoppages ... and yet I can take his gun and make it run right using the same ammo, between his "bouts" of "problems" ... it can become frustrating for the fellow if he won't believe it's not just a brute "strength" solution needed.
Some folks find it hard to believe that a simple "firm handshake" grip, with the hand & wrist correctly aligned in 2 planes, can help resolve a number of frustrating, annoying and puzzling "gun problems" for some folks.
Of course, choosing one of the smallest of the diminutive 1911's probably didn't help him in his first foray into 1911's, either. I'd have preferred a better way for him to become familiar with 1911's. Sometimes folks think smaller is better, and there may not be any compromises or trade-off's involved.
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Fastbolt
Member
BTW, there's an old saying that usually goes along the lines of ... day in and day out, more than 95% of "gun problems" are actually caused and induced by the shooter, in one way or another.
Ammunition problems follow shooter problems, maybe running 2-3%, with actual gun problems making up maybe 1-2% of the issues.
This can be skewed a bit due to magazine problems, however. Either dirty/fouled mags (or new mags saturated with packing/shipping oils), weakened/damaged mag springs or damaged followers can lend themselves to a number of puzzling feeding issues, as well.
Then, there's incorrectly assembled mags.
I remember one armorer class where I found an interesting comment in the manual. It said that if the magazines aren't clean, the gun isn't clean. The mags are at the very heart of reliable and proper pistol feeding & functioning, and they're "assemblies" in their own right.
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Fastbolt
Member
If being able to shoot an issued (or authorized personally-owned) semiauto pistol is a requirement of the position, you work with the guy/gal to identify and resolve whatever issue(s) may be involved. It may take a lot of work for both the person and the instructor, and it's important for both to have some investment in the effort.
In agencies like mine where we had a number of different instructors, it was often a matter of finding some fresh eyes to catch a subtle (and often simple) nuance over-looked by one instructor, or find someone who was a better match to the student for teaching methods ("chemistry") to whom they'd be more willing to listen, etc.
When it involved working with someone who could choose from within a wide range of guns for off-duty or retirement, or someone looking for a new gun for their CCW license (or a gun for a new license)? Then it may not be uncommon to suggest they consider a different choice of firearm for their dedicated defensive weapon. Just depends, though. I don't make it a practice to shill guns. Some folks get right touchy about such things.
I have seen folks bring both revolvers and semiauto pistols to some class or qual range, and when I saw how well they did with one style, and how poorly (or acceptable, but marginally so) they did with the other, I've cautiously suggest they consider looking toward their strong points when it comes to putting their lives on the line with one or the other type of handgun they wanted to use.
Now, this was usually accompanied by the suggestion to consider additional training with the gun with which they were less skilled (or visibly less comfortable, in many cases, and which caused them accuracy issues), so they could enhance their skillset with the gun they said they wanted to use, but with which they were visibly less skilled, familiar and comfortable.
When you factor in how some folks aren't interested or willing when it comes to applying themselves to further training and practice? Not an easy answer for an instructor to address.
Then, there's the folks who'd like to get more training, but the demands of their lives, families and finances won't easily allow them to do so.
Not a one-size-fits-all problem or solution.
ginzo
Member
I don't intend to debate the issue, I just tried to help a newb by process of elimination with what little info was provided. Got to start somewhere.
Shame on his instructor for not trying to help after firing x amount of rounds without a failure. (Just in it for the money)?
This article/video must have some merit? The 2nd link is not to slam Glocks, it just is a video to show how it can happen.
Limp wristing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Uqtz2asE4
Good luck Hondaguy, to me it's a balancing act between many factors, grip, etc. 1st get past this issue, you already pretty much proved it may not be the gun. Read as much as you can, take all the advice you can and try what seems to work for you. After this, then worry about sight alignment, sight picture, hitting target. It takes baby steps, as it did for us all.
Chuck
Shame on his instructor for not trying to help after firing x amount of rounds without a failure. (Just in it for the money)?
This article/video must have some merit? The 2nd link is not to slam Glocks, it just is a video to show how it can happen.
Limp wristing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Uqtz2asE4
Good luck Hondaguy, to me it's a balancing act between many factors, grip, etc. 1st get past this issue, you already pretty much proved it may not be the gun. Read as much as you can, take all the advice you can and try what seems to work for you. After this, then worry about sight alignment, sight picture, hitting target. It takes baby steps, as it did for us all.
Chuck
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Thanks. I don't know why, but I was only thinking of civilians qualifying for a CHL. I didn't think of LEOs having problems with their duty guns.
Doug M.
Member
^^ "Where you stand on the issues depends on where you sit." If you haven't had the chance to see such, or the mandate to address it, there is no reason to expect you to think of it.
This relates to one of the reasons I am not a fan of mandated/issued "one size fits none" pistols.
Grip size and a ton of other issues can have a lot of unintended consequences. I still recall an article from the mid-80s that came from one of our academy firearms instructors, about the female recruit who could not shoot the M66 she had (issued, as I recall) for beans. She did great when they gave her a 1911, in part because it really is for most people the best choice in terms of ergonomics. A friend of mine had never shot, so I took her to a range a couple years back just so she could say she had, and ... wow, she would never be able to make that K frame (ironically, an M66) work for her. I never would have expected it - she is average or slightly over in height, and athletic. My ex-wife, really short, tried my M58. I had to stand behind her and hold her up.
Everyone here should go re-read what Fastbolt has written. Beat into your memory. Well done.
This relates to one of the reasons I am not a fan of mandated/issued "one size fits none" pistols.
Grip size and a ton of other issues can have a lot of unintended consequences. I still recall an article from the mid-80s that came from one of our academy firearms instructors, about the female recruit who could not shoot the M66 she had (issued, as I recall) for beans. She did great when they gave her a 1911, in part because it really is for most people the best choice in terms of ergonomics. A friend of mine had never shot, so I took her to a range a couple years back just so she could say she had, and ... wow, she would never be able to make that K frame (ironically, an M66) work for her. I never would have expected it - she is average or slightly over in height, and athletic. My ex-wife, really short, tried my M58. I had to stand behind her and hold her up.Everyone here should go re-read what Fastbolt has written. Beat into your memory. Well done.
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