So I have recently started carrying for the first time and the piece I purchased exclusively for conceal carry was an M&P Shield. I've been doing a lot of research on its characteristics and one thing I've read a lot about recently was the fact that while the gun is listed as being DAO, in reality it is closer to a SAO firearm in that the gun is almost entirely cocked when a round is chambered and pulling the trigger only releases the striker.
What this brings me to is has this discrepancy between DAO (for example the Glock) and SAO (XDs and supposedly M&Ps) resulted in more accidental discharges for guns on the latter? I realize all of modern, quality firearms have drop safeties and striker blocks, but I am mainly curious if anyone here would think it'd be even possible in the event my M&P Shield somehow accidentally takes a fall to a hard surface, if the inertia from the fall could cause the striker to be released easier since it is already cocked?
Sorry for my paranoid question but there some things that just drive me nuts!
The Shield is striker fired. Not SAO or DAO. You have to pull the trigger before the striker block will release and let the striker hit the primer on the round.
No, dropping a Shield will not fire the pistol.
Rob
The M&P line was at one time listed by S&W as double action. I do think they have dropped that in their description. Their reasoning was the trigger pull caused the sear to move the striker back, thus double action. The problem and much discussion on this Forum, is that the striker only moves the sear back about 1/32 inch, basically nothing. So if you believe 1/32 is double action, so be it. I personally consider all M&Ps' to be single action. Those that converted to an Apex sear, have a single action, as the Apex sear has no sear hump, to push the striker back. The only action is the trigger causes the sear to release the striker.
All M&Ps' have a striker blocker. Unless the trigger is pulled back to about 3/4 of it rearward travel, the blocker prevents the striker from moving forward, and contacting the primer (drop safety). So even if somehow the gun should be dropped and hits in such a way as the sear would release the striker, the striker would not move forward and contact the primer. The blocker only clears the striker when the trigger is pulled back to near the break point.
The Shield is striker fired. Not SAO or DAO. You have to pull the trigger before the striker block will release and let the striker hit the primer on the round.
No, dropping a Shield will not fire the pistol.
Rob
Just real quick, looking at cross-sections of a Glock for example, it looks like the striker block is sort of offset from the channel the striker goes through. If for whatever reason the sear failed and the striker was released, would the tip of it directly hit the block itself?
i wish I could understand all this.. im typically the type of person who when I purchase something I try to find out every bit of information and names for all components in it... Im lost hear... I know I load the mag with 15 rounds of ammo I aim it down range and said target and it fires, I smile and have a very good stress releasing good time...
I'm also concerned with you as a gun owner, I don't mean any disrespect but if you are unsure of the safety qualities of a firearm than you should research the firearm before purchasing or even before thinking about owning. Now with that being said you came to the right place for your question. As other have said your Shield will not discharge if dropped, not going into the particulars here on why but you can easily research the functions of the shield on-line, which I truly feel will give you piece of mind.
Just real quick, looking at cross-sections of a Glock for example, it looks like the striker block is sort of offset from the channel the striker goes through. If for whatever reason the sear failed and the striker was released, would the tip of it directly hit the block itself?
No, there is a flange on the striker that the block would contact, it's still a mechanical block. I think you're over thinking this. Maybe if you disassembled yours you would understand how it functions. I'm sure there are U-Tube videos about it somewhere (there are videos for everything else imaginable).
Over 30 years of handling a variety of handguns and long guns I have never worried about this, because I have never dropped any gun. It's more a matter of individual due dilligence and safety than design. If you do drop a gun, DO NOT try to catch it...LET IT FALL. Grabbing for it could cause you to press the trigger. Carry it in a PROPER holster, too. Safety is a full time job as well as an individual responsibility that can NOT be delegated...
I'm also concerned with you as a gun owner, I don't mean any disrespect but if you are unsure of the safety qualities of a firearm than you should research the firearm before purchasing or even before thinking about owning. Now with that being said you came to the right place for your question. As other have said your Shield will not discharge if dropped, not going into the particulars here on why but you can easily research the functions of the shield on-line, which I truly feel will give you piece of mind.
I am just asking about specific characteristics, I am pretty sure the majority of people who purchase firearms don't know every single characteristic about the pieces they purchase until they handle them more and actually find things to inquiry about. I am a pretty busy guy who doesn't usually have time to think up every single thing that I might want to know. I purchased this firearm after doing plenty of research and deciding it had all the major components and features I wanted.
Most of the research I have done on the M&P line indicates regardless of inertia placed on the system, the sear should not fail since it requires some trigger manipulation.
I am mainly curious now if the striker block is able to prevent pretty much any movement of the striker. It's just odd because the block itself is offset from the striker but it seems to block it pretty well.
If dropped on the muzzle, the forces generated will attempt to move everything toward the muzzle. Thus, the trigger bar will attempt to move forward. If the trigger bar is all the way forward, it cannot disengage the striker block. If the striker block is not disengaged, the striker cannot hit the primer. The gun won't fire. The striker is also held back by the sear in this instance, but should the sear fail, the striker block will prevent it from firing.
If the gun is dropped on the top, this might cause the striker block to move out of the way. No matter, the striker will be held by the sear. The same forces that would move the striker block would just reinforce the hold the sear has on the striker.
If the gun is dropped on the grip, this might cause the sear to disengage, but the striker block is still in place and will prevent the striker from going forward. The same force that might move the sear, will keep the striker block firmly in place.
If the gun is dropped on the rear, this might cause the trigger to move rearward. That would indeed fire the gun because moving the trigger rearward defeats all the other safeties. However, in their infinite wisdom, S&W designed the trigger safety. That hinged portion of your trigger will prevent the trigger from going rearward if the gun is dropped on the back.
Don't worry. Your Shield is as safe as a gun can be.
Here's a little light entertainment on how the trigger works:
The accidental discharges are from people putting things inside the trigger guard (pulling trigger). Not from dropping. On the Glocks the striker is only half cocked. You need to pull the trigger to finish cocking it. If you drop it it won't go off. I have personally proven this to friends
My apologizes didn't mean any disrespect. I'm not the tech guy with all the tech talk but I do own both Glock and Shied and know their safeties are so much alike that I would trust both with my life. I guess what I am trying to say is carry with confidence, you won't be disappointed.
My apologizes didn't mean any disrespect. I'm not the tech guy with all the tech talk but I do own both Glock and Shied and know their safeties are so much alike that I would trust both with my life. I guess what I am trying to say is carry with confidence, you won't be disappointed.
No worries man no disrespect taken!
I seem to question EVERYTHING so I tend to ask redundant questions. Thanks again.
The question is not redundant. If there is any aspect of a gun you don't understand, ask. I'd rather answer a question a hundred times than to have a single person unsure of their firearm.
If dropped on the muzzle, the forces generated will attempt to move everything toward the muzzle. Thus, the trigger bar will attempt to move forward. If the trigger bar is all the way forward, it cannot disengage the striker block. If the striker block is not disengaged, the striker cannot hit the primer. The gun won't fire. The striker is also held back by the sear in this instance, but should the sear fail, the striker block will prevent it from firing.
If the gun is dropped on the top, this might cause the striker block to move out of the way. No matter, the striker will be held by the sear. The same forces that would move the striker block would just reinforce the hold the sear has on the striker.
If the gun is dropped on the grip, this might cause the sear to disengage, but the striker block is still in place and will prevent the striker from going forward. The same force that might move the sear, will keep the striker block firmly in place.
If the gun is dropped on the rear, this might cause the trigger to move rearward. That would indeed fire the gun because moving the trigger rearward defeats all the other safeties. However, in their infinite wisdom, S&W designed the trigger safety. That hinged portion of your trigger will prevent the trigger from going rearward if the gun is dropped on the back.
Don't worry. Your Shield is as safe as a gun can be.
Here's a little light entertainment on how the trigger works:
You my good sir, just won the internet today.
Very compelling stuff, I never realized it was like a system of checks and balances. I guess when you're a big company like S&W selling these types of firearms, you put a lot of R&D into designing extremely safe firearms that have a solution for most conceivable events.
Thanks for the help and the trigger video is also pretty interesting!
I've dropped mine a couple times taking a dump at work and it hasn't gone off yet also any trigger that makes you depress a striker safety with the trigger pull can't really be single action as depressing the safety and releasing the sear are two separate actions...
I am just asking about specific characteristics, I am pretty sure the majority of people who purchase firearms don't know every single characteristic about the pieces they purchase...
I do, and why not? It's a simple mechanical device, not a jet engine...
DO NOT try to catch it...LET IT FALL. Grabbing for it could cause you to press the trigger. Carry it in a PROPER holster, too. Safety is a full time job as well as an individual responsibility that can NOT be delegated...
+1 on this ... one of our Sgts dropped his off-duty Glock and accidentally grabbed the trigger ... the end result was a bullet scar off of a table top, through the wall and into an UNoccupied bathroom (thankfully, if anyone had been sitting there, they would have taken one in the head or in the a## if they were standing there), through the next wall into the report room where it took out a printer.
The M&P line was at one time listed by S&W as double action. I do think they have dropped that in their description. Their reasoning was the trigger pull caused the sear to move the striker back, thus double action. The problem and much discussion on this Forum, is that the striker only moves the sear back about 1/32 inch, basically nothing. So if you believe 1/32 is double action, so be it. I personally consider all M&Ps' to be single action. Those that converted to an Apex sear, have a single action, as the Apex sear has no sear hump, to push the striker back. The only action is the trigger causes the sear to release the striker.
All M&Ps' have a striker blocker. Unless the trigger is pulled back to about 3/4 of it rearward travel, the blocker prevents the striker from moving forward, and contacting the primer (drop safety). So even if somehow the gun should be dropped and hits in such a way as the sear would release the striker, the striker would not move forward and contact the primer. The blocker only clears the striker when the trigger is pulled back to near the break point.
Bob
Hey Bob,
Thanks for the very informative reply. So even though in the M&P line the striker technically only moves the sear back 1/32nd of an inch, would you say a sear fail would theoretically be more common in the M&P line than versus the Glock line where there is more travel involved?
The original question was whether the Shield is "drop safe." It is, assuming all parts are fitted properly and the weapon is in proper working order. The Shield, like almost all modern semi-autos, has a firing pin safety which prevents an inertial discharge if the weapon is dropped on the muzzle. And, like all of the modern striker fired pistols, the Shield has a "trigger safety" device that prevents the striker from travelling rearward enough to deactivate the firing pin safety and to trip the sear, thereby firing the weapon, as a result of a drop on the rear of the weapon. It is, therefore, "drop safe."
No, the M&Ps are not less safe. The distance the trigger pull moves the striker back is not what makes a gun safe or not. What make it safe is that the sear has enough contact area with the striker, so that the sear will not slip off the striker. Sounds like you are thinking the sear only engages the striker by 1/32 inch, which is not correct. The actual sear engagement depth is around 3/32 inch, which is a lot of surface area to safely hold the striker. Plus you still have the striker blocker, that will prevent the striker from contacting the primer, unless the trigger is pulled/moved back to near the break point.
No, the M&Ps are not less safe. The distance the trigger pull moves the striker back is not what makes a gun safe or not. What make it safe is that the sear has enough contact area with the striker, so that the sear will not slip off the striker. Sounds like you are thinking the sear only engages the striker by 1/32 inch, which is not correct. The actual sear engagement depth is around 3/32 inch, which is a lot of surface area to safely hold the striker. Plus you still have the striker blocker, that will prevent the striker from contacting the primer, unless the trigger is pulled/moved back to near the break point.
Bob
See that's what I was most confused about. I had no idea it was that much depth of interface between the striker nose and the sear. Now I don't even get how the system could even fail, which I guess is what everyone's been trying to explain to me this entire time!
The drop safety pin has a "notch" in it. Moving it upwards (there's a portion of the trigger bar that does this) allows the striker to pass the notch and fire the weapon. Otherwise the un-notched part of the pin is in place, blocking the striker.
The trigger bar moves the drop safety just before it makes the sear release from the striker.
I don't trust the trigger safety, but the advantages listed above could be useful.
So I have recently started carrying for the first time and the piece I purchased exclusively for conceal carry was an M&P Shield. I've been doing a lot of research on its characteristics and one thing I've read a lot about recently was the fact that while the gun is listed as being DAO, in reality it is closer to a SAO firearm in that the gun is almost entirely cocked when a round is chambered and pulling the trigger only releases the striker.
What this brings me to is has this discrepancy between DAO (for example the Glock) and SAO (XDs and supposedly M&Ps) resulted in more accidental discharges for guns on the latter? I realize all of modern, quality firearms have drop safeties and striker blocks, but I am mainly curious if anyone here would think it'd be even possible in the event my M&P Shield somehow accidentally takes a fall to a hard surface, if the inertia from the fall could cause the striker to be released easier since it is already cocked?
Sorry for my paranoid question but there some things that just drive me nuts!
Gabe
I understand your concern. When I first started pocket packing a handgun with a round chambered I was very nervous.
For the first 2 weeks I would pack with the weapon racked but empty. Every night I would check to see the weapon during thr day went bang.
Fast forward 3 years pocket packing 10 hours per day (2 years with my Shield) and the weapon is safe and I never clear the chamber except when I clean it.
Consider the multiple safeties on the Shield. You have the block, inertia trigger, manual safety, holster and your brain.
I understand your concern. When I first started pocket packing a handgun with a round chambered I was very nervous.
For the first 2 weeks I would pack with the weapon racked but empty. Every night I would check to see the weapon during thr day went bang.
Fast forward 3 years pocket packing 10 hours per day (2 years with my Shield) and the weapon is safe and I never clear the chamber except when I clean it.
Consider the multiple safeties on the Shield. You have the block, inertia trigger, manual safety, holster and your brain.
Russ
Thanks for the reassurance! I decided to face my fear and start carrying with a round chambered (with the manual safety on, just my preference). Now that I better understand HOW the safeties all work together it makes a lot more sense why the only well documented NDs happen due to people manipulating the trigger from complacency and mishandling
My wife carried her shield in a purse with an outside zipper compartment. Walking to the cat in at Walmart the zipper gave way and the shield fell to the pavement. About a three foot drop. She carries with a round in the chamber. No accidental discharge, just damage to the right top of the right rear sight. Purchased a Comptac holster the next day.
My EDC for the last 15 years has been a Taurus CH85. Right front pants pocket carry. Five shots and no safety of any kind except the firing pin is not part of the hammer. I have never worried at all about unintended discharge. I am moving to a Shield 40 when I get delivery of an on order pocket holster for right front pants pocket. I won't use the external safety on it under normal carry.
M&P Shield Drop Safe?
also any trigger that makes you depress a striker safety with the trigger pull can't really be single action as depressing the safety and releasing the sear are two separate actions...
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