Duty gun help

[scsu74]

Hey all, I'm starting with a new PD soon and they require an M&P 9 or .45 full size. I've only ever shot/carried glocks and don't have much experience with m&p's except for a few range trips.

The times I have shot m&p's I had trouble with the reset and when making follow up shots the trigger wasn't reset on more than one occasion. I did find a thread on here mentioning newer m&p's are shipping with a performance sear, different slide stop and trigger bar. Here is that thread: Articles- M&P PRODUCTION UPDATES: Slide stops,barrels,sear

My question is, if I buy a new pistol is there a manufacture date that these changes went into effect? If it's made in 2014 would it have all the new updates? I'm looking at staying with the 9 if that makes a difference.

I also spoke with the m&p LEO rep for my area and he mentioned a new "reset" trigger being released in the next month or so. Has anyone heard about this?

One last question, if I order a pistol without a magazine disconnect is it possible to add one later by swapping the sear block or another part? Thanks in advance guys!

[Kanewpadle]

It is my opinion that trigger reset is over hyped. Too much emphasis is put on trigger reset and you won't notice it in a fight.

Release the trigger full and you won't have a problem. Practice is key.

[Doug M.]

Shooting to the reset is a target shooting concept, not appropriate to fighting. If the trigger is not resetting when you let it all the way off, there is something wrong and the pistol needs to go the mothership or a good gunsmith (maybe even your department armorer). (Kanewpadle beat me to it - a large majority of high quality trainers will make it more explicit that shooting to the reset is a training scar.) Take a look at the writeups on Modern Service Weapons | Your No-nonsense Information Source for Service Weapons, Gear and Training. There are some very savvy folks there (Hilton has tested the heck out of the .45 M&P). My inclination would be the 9mm because ammo is cheaper and you can do more training on your own dime. Either one is perfectly acceptable - modern pistol ammo in the service calibers has performance that is so close that caliber rarely makes a difference.

Before ordering, you might want to be DARNED SURE of the specs the department mandates, and then order what conforms to that. Ordering something and then planning to change the specs to match what you want or must have is a lot less sound than doing it right from the start. (I admit I don't know the answer to the question as phrased ...)

[shawn mccarver]

If you would not short-stroke the trigger, you would not have the issue in question.

[scsu74]

Letting the trigger all the way out and having to stage it again isn't really how I like to shoot. I don't necessarily shoot to reset, but with the Glock I've slow fired it so much I know exactly how far to let it out to break my next shot. The m&p's I've shot it was impossible to do this as there wasn't any felt reset.

Does anyone know when the updates started taking effect and if it's possible to add mag disconnect?

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by scsu74

If it's made in 2014 would it have all the new updates?

Yes, if it's made in 2014 it should have the updated slide stop (the part that makes the reset more pronounced). There wasn't a cut off date for this update though. I believe they did a rolling update and just put the new parts in as the old ones ran out.

Originally Posted by scsu74

One last question, if I order a pistol without a magazine disconnect is it possible to add one later by swapping the sear block or another part? Thanks in advance guys!

Yes, the magazine disconnect can be installed at a later date. It's an easy conversion should you need to do it. The only difficulty might be getting the parts. Sometimes they are not readily available. Of course there are probably many available through this site because lots of guys have converted the other way and probably have the parts just sitting around.

[CB3]

Originally Posted by scsu74

The times I have shot m&p's I had trouble with the reset and when making follow up shots the trigger wasn't reset on more than one occasion.

IMO, the "reset" debate is like the caliber wars. Target or competition shooting may not be the same in life saving importance, but that does not automatically equate to competitive trigger manipulation being useless or inapplicable to self defense shooting. Wasted trigger movement is wasted.

A trigger that travels forward far beyond the actual reset point, whether felt or not, is a trigger that takes longer to release and pull.

Longer trigger strokes also generally decrease accuracy since they require more movement that can translate into grip movement and resultant barrel movement.

Sure, you don't want to short stroke a trigger in a life and death situation. Ignoring a tactile reset by releasing a trigger all the way to the forward resting point, perhaps even disengaging your finger off the trigger then reacquiring it, is not the only way to overcome this problem.

If your trigger is set up to travel forward only a short distance beyond the mechanical reset, you will do OK with full-forward practice in avoiding short stroking.

If, as on many of the Glock's I have shot, the reset is fairly short compared to overall trigger travel to a full forward position, I see nothing wrong with understanding the feel of a tactile reset and stroking the trigger to a comfortable distance beyond that reset that does not involve releasing the trigger all the way forward.

M&P triggers have evolved and continue to evolve because they need to, including improving the tactile reset. Tactile reset is a valid component of defensive shooting. It's not just a target shooting enhancement. A tactile reset does not degrade either form of shooting, but the lack of such may.

A police officer may not have the luxury of tuning his trigger system as civilian defensive or target shooters can. If that is the case, I would want the best out of the box trigger possible and it would include a tactile reset. I would train with it and use it to full advantage.

The FS M&P triggers are of low enough and inconsistent enough quality for feel (function is fine) that there is a strong aftermarket for both enhanced parts and gunsmithing to improve them. I strongly suggest that the OP try a number of guns before deciding which has the best out of the box trigger, especially if he will be able only to polish some components for smoothness.

I also recommend the 9MM over the .45 ACP for reasons stated above, and more importantly, capacity.

[Weimar]

when some asks me what kind of pistol they should get, I always tell them the one that feels best in their hand when shooting. Because of the job, you are mandated - this means you need to play with it unloaded a lot, learn all the ins and outs. Take it to the range and shoot it - not hundreds of rounds at one sitting but several times a week at 50 rounds a piece (IMHO). Just let it become part of you until you are so used to it that it becomes second nature.

No slip ups, no excuses from yourself, you will know what it can and can't do.

Just my opinion...

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yes, if it's made in 2014 it should have the updated slide stop (the part that makes the reset more pronounced). There wasn't a cut off date for this update though. I believe they did a rolling update and just put the new parts in as the old ones ran out.

Yes, the magazine disconnect can be installed at a later date. It's an easy conversion should you need to do it. The only difficulty might be getting the parts. Sometimes they are not readily available. Of course there are probably many available through this site because lots of guys have converted the other way and probably have the parts just sitting around.

Would it be easier to order one with the disconnect and remove it? I know I should wait until I get the specs, but it is going to be a lateral academy and we'll probably only have a week or two notice. I'm wanting to send it out to have the grip stippled an that typically takes around a month.

I was on G&R tactical and it looks like they have all the newest parts available for cheap. I think I'm going to order one and send it out for the grip work. If I end up needing a different setup I'll just swap parts. I'm a glock armorer, the M&P can't be all that different. Thanks for all the help guys!

[griz517]

As far as the factory installed performance center sear, I spoke to a S&W rep recently and he told me that option is not available for the .45, but it is for the 9 and .40. He acted like it would be an option at some point, but not yet.

[Rastoff]

I would order it with the mag disconnect and remove it if I didn't like it. That way you'd already have all the parts.

[Atticaz]

The Apex Duty/Carry spring kit would help with that reset issue. I do not shoot to reset. But I like the extra poundage in the trigger, for striker fired handguns without thumb safeties.

I personally installed the Apex polymer trigger, duty/carry spring kit and the sear. The whole setup has the extra poundage that I like, yet smooth crisp pull and reset. Plus that extra pound or so helps the trigger move forward on release, assuring that there isn't any short stroking.

[vipermd]

Why would you want a mag safety?? Besides the "mythical" LEO that dropped his mag during a roll on the ground with perp. Fine motor VS gross motor?
As for caliber, as DougM said both will work, but when you find out that they decided to go with ball ammo, you will be drilling a hole in the barrel lengthwise. Be Safe,

[Doug M.]

^ It's been a long time since I have heard of an LE agency going with ball. I think NYPD did for a while when they first authorized 9s, and that was a disaster. Even the anti-cop entities like IACP and PERF are not that loony.

[dimitri]

To bolster what griz517 said, my 45 mid has a test casing from Feb 2014 and it doesn't have the new trigger bar. Reset is meh. On the other hand, it shoots quite well and I really like it .. it is stock, btw. I shoot it better than my 9FS, which also doesn't have the new trigger bar, but does have the Apex DCAEK.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by vipermd

Why would you want a mag safety??

It may be a requirement of the department.

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

It may be a requirement of the department.

Yep, it is. I think it's pretty stupid personally... But oh well. Any recommendations for online dealers? Best price I've found is bud's, $399 w/ free shipping, but they're out of the one I want.

[redrock]

Go back to G&R and look for the first responder link on the left side of the first page. The best M&P 9 to buy is the LE product code 151215. Grant described it as "The Taj Mahal as they call it. All the current fixes, upgrades, etc in one gun. The finish on it is PVD (rust proof)." It is $100 more than the Bud's price (on a different SKU gun), but it comes with 3 mags, night sights and the LE only finish. Money well spent, IMO.

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by redrock

Go back to G&R and look for the first responder link on the left side of the first page. The best M&P 9 to buy is the LE product code 151215. Grant described it as "The Taj Mahal as they call it. All the current fixes, upgrades, etc in one gun. The finish on it is PVD (rust proof)." It is $100 more than the Bud's price (on a different SKU gun), but it comes with 3 mags, night sights and the LE only finish. Money well spent, IMO.

I didn't realize those were stocking yet! I spoke with the LEO S&W rep and this was the model he recommended as well, 151215 is supposed to have a new "reset" trigger in it as well. I don't think this model has the mag disconnect though...

ETA: Just received a phone call from the dealer that provides the guns for the academy classes and the model number he gave me is 309701.. no mag safety or thumb safety. I'm going to have a friend double check with the range guys, but looks like I'll be able to pick up the 151215. Anybody know if the internals are the same in the 151215 and 309301? I want to add Trij HD sights so it wouldn't make much sense to order one with the S&W NS.

[redrock]

Originally Posted by scsu74

Anybody know if the internals are the same in the 151215 and 309301? I want to add Trij HD sights so it wouldn't make much sense to order one with the S&W NS.

I would double check, but given the 209301 is the SKU for the non-LE variant with all the latest changes, I would *guess* the 309301 is the latest LE gun with all the updates. But it still doesn't have the PVD finish; which would really be a worthwhile addition for duty carry. Were it me, I would get the 151215 and swap out the sights. You could easily recoup a fair portion of the cost by reselling them in our classified section, or maybe ask Grant if he would be interested in offsetting the cost of the HD sights in trade and have him install them before he ships.

[GerSan69]

May I offer some advice? I don't know how much LE experience you have, but most departments expect that they will train you "their'' way. I've never been to one where the new guy tells them how he's going to do it. I really, really suggest making sure - quietly, if not humbly - that your ''preferred'' method of trigger control, not to mention any mods to your firearm, are acceptable to your trainers. Us FTOs are a peculiar lot- we tend to take offense at a new guy that we think has a knowitall attitude...

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by redrock

I would double check, but given the 209301 is the SKU for the non-LE variant with all the latest changes, I would *guess* the 309301 is the latest LE gun with all the updates. But it still doesn't have the PVD finish; which would really be a worthwhile addition for duty carry. Were it me, I would get the 151215 and swap out the sights. You could easily recoup a fair portion of the cost by reselling them in our classified section, or maybe ask Grant if he would be interested in offsetting the cost of the HD sights in trade and have him install them before he ships.

Nice! He's out of stock on them now

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by GerSan69

May I offer some advice? I don't know how much LE experience you have, but most departments expect that they will train you "their'' way. I've never been to one where the new guy tells them how he's going to do it. I really, really suggest making sure - quietly, if not humbly - that your ''preferred'' method of trigger control, not to mention any mods to your firearm, are acceptable to your trainers. Us FTOs are a peculiar lot- we tend to take offense at a new guy that we think has a knowitall attitude...

I'm coming up on 5 years in patrol, with the first 4 being in one of the largest cities in the country. My trigger control has always been fine, routinely shoot 100's and am able to pass Paul Howe's CSAT standards without much trouble.

The only mods I'm making are putting a set of Trij HD's on it, my x300 light and stippling the grip. I'm new to m&p's and am trying to wrap my head around all the goofy safeties and continuos updates to the internals... Would much prefer to keep my tried and tested Glock, but that's not an option..

ETA: ordered the 309301 from G&R, excellent CS!

[GerSan69]

Originally Posted by scsu74

I'm coming up on 5 years in patrol, with the first 4 being in one of the largest cities in the country. My trigger control has always been fine, routinely shoot 100's and am able to pass Paul Howe's CSAT standards without much trouble.

The only mods I'm making are putting a set of Trij HD's on it, my x300 light and stippling the grip. I'm new to m&p's and am trying to wrap my head around all the goofy safeties and continuos updates to the internals... Would much prefer to keep my tried and tested Glock, but that's not an option..

Very good. 18 days away from retiring after 34+ years with Denver PD here. :-)
Best of luck with your job change. Hope you have a long and successful career.
I think that, over time, the S&W will grow on you. Just give 'er a chance!

[vipermd]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

^ It's been a long time since I have heard of an LE agency going with ball. I think NYPD did for a while when they first authorized 9s, and that was a disaster. Even the anti-cop entities like IACP and PERF are not that loony.

Agreed, Just trying to suggest if you had to carry 9/45 with ball ( or a poor functioning HP ) which would you rather carry. Be Safe,

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by vipermd

Agreed, Just trying to suggest if you had to carry 9/45 with ball ( or a poor functioning HP ) which would you rather carry. Be Safe,

A good gun with better ammo?

[walkin' trails]

I have both of the pistols you mentioned plus a new 9c. As a long time Glock shooter, I can't say I ever noticed the M&P reset to be noticibly different with current production stuff. Nevertheless, if you spend an ample amount of time dry firing with your duty gun, you will get used to it and master the trigger.

[Muss Muggins]

something seems really wrong with this entire thread . . .

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by GerSan69

Very good. 18 days away from retiring after 34+ years with Denver PD here. :-)
Best of luck with your job change. Hope you have a long and successful career.
I think that, over time, the S&W will grow on you. Just give 'er a chance!

Congrats brother, that's a heck of a career! Hopefully retirement treats you well. Any big plans?

The PD I'm going through the lateral process with is where I wanted to be from the start, but wasn't hiring after college. Had to leave the state to work anywhere relatively similar in size. Glad they opened up, especially for laterals. Fingers crossed. Thanks everyone for the advice, Grant was awesome at G&R answering all my many questions

[mdthanatos]

I know my local department uses the FS 9, and I have heard they use ball ammo but I will double check on that. None of them have stippling as I don't think it is allowed but quite a few have a hogue grip installed on them. One of the officers I have talked to prefers 1911s and Glocks but qualifies with the M&P well enough.

My M&P has an updated barrel with 1 dimple, sear #2 from the MSW article and neither of the slide locks from those articles, and has a test fire date of 6/7/13. I am willing to bet that a 2014 production would have everything updated.

[GerSan69]

Originally Posted by scsu74

Congrats brother, that's a heck of a career! Hopefully retirement treats you well. Any big plans?

Moving to Phoenix in October. Other than that, visit grandkids, go boating and do some ATV'ing. Have several gun projects and some woodwork to do, also.

Originally Posted by scsu74

The PD I'm going through the lateral process with is where I wanted to be from the start, but wasn't hiring after college. Had to leave the state to work anywhere relatively similar in size. Glad they opened up, especially for laterals. Fingers crossed. Thanks everyone for the advice, Grant was awesome at G&R answering all my many questions

Excellent. Having worked for a "destination" department all these years, I know how much guys will go through to get on. Again, best of luck and keep us posted with your progress!

[scsu74]

Well after quite a bit of messing around I finally have my pistol. I was under the impression that G&R had the guns listed in stock, but they didn't. I ordered from Bud's and after 2 weeks of waiting I finally received my pistol.

Bud's assured me the 309301 I ordered was manufactured this year, it wasn't. After being pretty upset with the whole ordering process I researched the individual parts; slide stop, trigger bar and barrel are all the updated parts. Reset is very noticeable and I'm really liking the ergo's. I sent it out for stippling, I'm looking forward to getting it back so I can put some rounds through it. Appreciate all the help!

[scsu74]

^ updated.....

[rrich1]

good deal. where did you send it off for stippling? i bought grips from a2stippling and love them.

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by rrich1

good deal. where did you send it off for stippling? i bought grips from a2stippling and love them.

I sent it to Chris Hardin at Lightfighter Innovations. Previously I have gone to Lane at Cold Bore Customs, but he wasn't answering my emails and I'm in a bit of a time crunch with my academy starting in a few weeks.

If I wasn't pressed for time I would have shipped this pistol back to Bud's...

[scsu74]

Just got back to me, Chris turned it around in a day. His work is top notch..
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1408411569.655580.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1408411584.797104.jpg

[Rastoff]

Let us know how it feels after shooting a hundred or so rounds.

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Let us know how it feels after shooting a hundred or so rounds.

Will do! All my glocks are stippled, I really like the rough texture compared to the smooth polymer

[MSG Glenn]

Glad you, too noticed the improved ergo that M&Ps have over Glocks. I carried an issue Glock 22, my personal Glock 23 & Glock 21 on my job in armed security & although I shot good with all of them I went to M&P after I gave the Glocks to my LEO son for off duty carry. That was before WI had a concealed carry law. We got the law passed & when I was shopping for a new carry piece my son recommended M&P. His department issues them at the academy & he noticed the superiority over the Glocks. The first time I shot my M&Ps (full size 40 & Compact) I noticed the difference. He figures he went through over 3000 rounds at the academy with his issue M&P40 without one hitch using cheap Blazer ammo.

My son wrapped some Talon (?) grips on his M&P. It feels like sandpaper. Now I personally like the factory stippling on my M&Ps but I'm glad there are cheap options & some not so cheap like the custom stippling you have.

I'm very happy with my M&Ps. The full size was bought used out of police service & well broken in. My 40 Compact needed no breaking in at all & the reset is good as well as the trigger - better than the older full size. I just carry mine for SD so I might not be as fussy. Al I had to do was a slight bit of polishing on the trigger bar to get rid of a little grittiness.

[scsu74]

Originally Posted by MSG Glenn

Glad you, too noticed the improved ergo that M&Ps have over Glocks. I carried an issue Glock 22, my personal Glock 23 & Glock 21 on my job in armed security & although I shot good with all of them I went to M&P after I gave the Glocks to my LEO son for off duty carry. That was before WI had a concealed carry law. We got the law passed & when I was shopping for a new carry piece my son recommended M&P. His department issues them at the academy & he noticed the superiority over the Glocks. The first time I shot my M&Ps (full size 40 & Compact) I noticed the difference. He figures he went through over 3000 rounds at the academy with his issue M&P40 without one hitch using cheap Blazer ammo.



My son wrapped some Talon (?) grips on his M&P. It feels like sandpaper. Now I personally like the factory stippling on my M&Ps but I'm glad there are cheap options & some not so cheap like the custom stippling you have.



I'm very happy with my M&Ps. The full size was bought used out of police service & well broken in. My 40 Compact needed no breaking in at all & the reset is good as well as the trigger - better than the older full size. I just carry mine for SD so I might not be as fussy. Al I had to do was a slight bit of polishing on the trigger bar to get rid of a little grittiness.

Great write up, thank you for your feedback! I should have the night sights installed this week and a few hundred rounds through it next weekend