I have a question that's been bugging me for a while and I haven't been able to get a clear understanding of what S&W means by 'PVD'...either in the newer LE 151215 or VTAC (assuming it's the same or similar coating aside from color).

I understand the term Physical Vapor/Vapour Deposition but where I'm getting confused is that even S&W seems to define PVD as THE finish (i.e. VTAC: "Durable PVD Coated Finish). PVD is NOT a finish; It's the process to apply a finish. PVD is basically in a group of vacuum coating techniques used to deposit a thin film coating.

For example my watch is DLC'ed (Diamond Like Coating) and it is applied using the PVD process. There are lots of other coatings that could have been utilized using the PVD process, other than using DLC (i.e. TiN, TiAIN, CrN, etc...).

And since coating properties can vary, there's the common misconception that PVD’ing something automatically makes things harder, more wear resistant, durable, etc... It doesn't necessarily. It all depends on the actual coating used.

Now that S&W seems to be coming out with other guns with a 'PVD' finish other than the VTAC, I'm curious what they are actually using. I tried calling S&W but the rep I spoke with had no idea.

Thoughts?

Titankote C12 (Me-DLC).

Awesome thanks.

So the next question would be how does the PVD finished M&P's compare to the melonite finished M&P's as far as durability?

The word I got from S&W is that the surface hardness is 75hrc and is 99% corrosion resistant.

How that compares to melonite, I have no idea.

My guns been away for a while for an agency mandated technical inspection so I aside from @500 rds I fired through it before I shipped it up, I can't say much. But in the time I have had it, the high spots were showing wear which has been reported by other VTAC owners as well.

I'm not sure if after a period of time it'll just stay like that or if it will continue to get worse. Time will tell.

Personally I don't care about 'wear' marks, it's a tool, and having it look new is not important to me. My expectation is just that the treatment will protect the gun from rust as well as melonite/tenifer. The specs of the coating should do that so we'll see.

I got a 1000 rds coming in today. As soon as my gun comes back it's going to straight to the range.

I just got off of the phone with S&W. I asked how the PVD finish compares to melonite as far as wear and corrosion resistance. I was told, "We've been told it's comparable". That's all the guy would say.

My melonite M&P's show wear marks on the slide from my Safariland ALS holsters. I don't have an issue with it. But I'm also under the impression that with melonite, there is still some of the coating left, even with the visible wear marks, thereby still affording some corrosion resistance in that spot.

Can anyone comment on the PVD coating? At the wear marks, is there still still enough of the coating in the pores of the metal to offer some corrosion resistance?

This SKU is about $50 cheaper than the same gun with the melonite coatings. If the coatings are really comparable, fifty bucks is fifty bucks!

Commenting on DLC as a whole, it does provide protection a microns below the surface of the base material. It creates a shell if you will. With that said, if the surface gets scratched deep enough, it will go through the 'shell' exposing the base steel.

My understanding of melonite is it does something similar, but melonite is not a coating but a surface treatment. But as a surface treatment, there's still the possibility that a scratch or damage can go through the treated surface down to the base material. The wear you're seeing is probably the color (black) they coat your gun with rather than the melonite, which is underneath that color.

Or I could be totally wrong

So you found a 151215? Those things are harder to find than hens teeth.

I find the Melonite coatings (or whatever it is) to be very durable. Look at my post about my 60K round Core. Here's another picture of the inside of the slide where the barrel shroud rubs on the slide, not a lot of wear for 60K rounds.

Attached Images

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I'm familiar with the melonite coatings on the M&P as I've been carrying issued M&P9's for about 8 years.

I guess the question would be, is the PVD coated M&P's finish just as durable as the melonite coated guns? If so, then it would make sense to save the $50 and go with the PVD coated gun. If not, then I can justify the additional cost of the melonite coated gun.

The M&P VTAC handguns have a PVD finish, and reports are that it is not very durable, with the finish wearing off on the high spots almost immediately. Not sure if this Black PVD is any different that the FDE finish of those models, but if not I would be suspect of it being any different wear-wise.

I'd like to know that too. I haven't been able to find any info regarding any long term reviews of the VTAC's finish. Closest I've found is from Hilton Yam.

In theory it should be GTG, but at this point I don't think either model (VTAC or 151215) has been out long enough to know for sure.

I had an old shotgun that had a black KSP * finish that was quite durable.


(* Krylon Spray Paint)

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I got my gun back and went to the range.



I apologize for not taking any before pictures but frankly I wasn't expecting what ended up happening to happen....make perfect sense, right? ...not. Let me explain.



I put @3/4 or @750 rds of that 1000 k case (AE 165 gr 40) through my gun today that included probably over 200-250 draws from a Garrett Industries AIWB holster.



At times it got so hot I had to rack it off my belt cause it was too hot to touch with my bare hands to even power stroke the slide.



After coming home the gun looked pretty rough; what appeared to be silver-ish streaks, wear marks, carbon stains...the whole 9 yds. Basically the 'PVD' finish did not seem very durable and no where near my previous experiences with tenifer/Melonite. Again, wear marks don't bother me, but I was surprised it happened so soon. I have krylon painted parts that are holding up better on other guns.



I keep thinking I need to post a pic of this but get caught up replacing my rear sight, adding a thumb safety, etc...and completely forgot.



To my complete surprise though, all the stuff I mentioned above just wiped off



The finish is spotless!!! I'll apologize again for not taking a before pic but here's the after even though it doesn't say much without the before...I promise I'll do it next time.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1410401019.552698.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1410401044.842247.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1410401058.644804.jpg



So I'm at @1200 rds...I'll update when I polish off the next 500.



If you guys done care at all I won't do it, but I think it might

Be interesting. I don't know of anyone that has provided some pics over the years for this version. It's going to be my EDC.



Could be interesting.

Personally, I don't have much of a preference one way or the other for Melonite v. PVD. It's still the same through-hardened stainless slide, and my carry weapons generally get all kinds of wear & use marks.

If the PVD is less expensive? Sure. Why not?

How about a standard production sku# with a plain stainless slide? Why not? I've been carrying different 3rd gen's with plain old stainless slides since '90. I'm not someone who assumes that carrying a black finish weapon is the same thing as activating a 'cloaking device' that renders me invisible.

One other thing about a dark PVD finish versus a light color one, or a plain stainless one, for that matter ...

... Black finish guns tend to look cleaner, sooner, during the cleaning process.

Kind of like a blue revolver "being easier to clean" because the blue/black finish doesn't show the fouling as starkly as a nickeled or stainless revolver.

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Cut the technobabble; PVD really stands Polyester Virgin Ductape!

This is a common theme misunderstanding about the "finish" vs. "treatment"-- common misunderstanding on Glock threads too.

Tenifer, Melonite, Nitrocarburizing, Nitriding, Nitroferritic...etc. are all metallurgic (chemical) processes, or treatments, that affect the crystalline structure of the steel. Typically these only penetrate the surface some fractional microns in depth. They give the surface corrosion resistance, hardness, and some degree of lubricity. They do not change the color or surface appearance by much beyond what the bare steel looks like.

Finishes: paint, phosphorus, bluing, ceramic, Durakote, ceramakote, PVD, Ni-B, Talo, diamondkote, Ti-N, Nitron, TIAN, Chrome, Nickel....etc....
are applied on TOP (over, on the surface) of the treated steel.
These rub off and show wear, depending on what it rubs against. Even a "hard finish" will "wear off" by being brittle at the microscopic level and flaking or delaminating. Add shock, abrasion, heat, explosion, salts, acids, moisture to the mix and shiny will not stay that way.

With enough use, anything will wear out.

I agree. Melonite is the same as Tenifer, so successfully used by Glock from the beginning.

Glock has also changed its finish, and now states that its pistols use an "advanced surface finish" that makes the steel very hard.

Most folks believe that Glock changed from the salt bath liquid nitriding process (Melonite/Tenifer) to a to a similar gas nitrocarburizing process.

Whether by liquid bath or gas application, the effect is the same. The steel is essentially case hardened, which provides excellent wear and corrosion resistance.

Glock has always applied a surface finish over the treated melonite/tenifer treated steel, in the beginning parkerizing, and various other surface coloring/finishing methods since then to make the steel appear dark or black.

In the case of Glock, the dark finish which people complain "wears off" is not the melonite/tenifer wearing off. Instead, it is the parkerizing, blue oxide or whatever surface finish they are using at the time, and they have switched a few times.

So, the hardening process does not wear off, whether it is PVD, Melonite/Tenifer or whatever other steel hardening process is used. If "wear" is observed, it is in the surface bluing, parkerizing, paint or whatever other coloring is used.

S&W has an advantage in that its semi-auto steels are "through hardened," often stainless, then surface hardened with either Melonite or now PVD in the new LE guns, and then finish colored, whether by a bluing, blacking or cerakote process, making them incredibly durable.

Despite some criticism of S&W, and they definitely came late to the striker fired pistol market, they really DO know how to engineer and build good guns.

Nitriding (or similar process) on a stainless steel is redundant and actually may make the corrosion resistance less, compared to treating a "regular" steel. Those who are in the know, metallurgically, will say that the melonite on a stainless is really a step backwards for the stainless steel. And it also increases the manufacturing cost, yet it is not better than nitrided steel.

But it sounds fantastic for marketing and sales- you can have a Melonited stainless steel slide, with a blackened ceramic diamondkote! WOW!

Part of the whole process of selling more guns, because your is improved and has more features than the others.

S&W has been using PVD for a little while now. On revolvers the barrel and cylinder of the 442 Pro Series is SS with a black PVD, as well as the cylinder that was used on the night guard series revolvers, and I believe it was used earlier on some other revolvers that were limited run guns.

M&P 340/360 cylinders, too.

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I remember when a former S&W engineer was discussing nitriding and stainless. As I recall, he said that the particular stainless alloy used by S&W required great care when being treated. Another guy told me that this was why they used the Melonite QP version of the process, as the QPQ was inappropriate for stainless. Even so, if it wasn't done exactly right, it could reduce the inherent corrosion resistant qualities of the stainless.

The QPQ version was said to be best for low carbon, resulfurized steel alloy.

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Why go through the trouble.

The advantage of using regular steel to a gun maker is cost. They can produce the slides and barrels at much lower costs and yet have a fantastic final product (harder and possibly more stainless than stainless) with the steel treatment that overall is still less than the stainless material.

With stainless, you have a base material that is harder to work, and more expensive to obtain, then treat with a "specialized" process that does not add that much more benefit, then coat it black...makes no sense to me.

S&W was using the Melonite treatment way back on some of the older Sigma line and the 5906 M/Militar foreign sale pistols.

While I've long since given up trying to figure out why gun companies do what they do, I can see some market interest in black, non-reflective finishes. (Then again, I suspect the gun companies are bewildered by the results of marketing surveys as often as not, and scratch their heads wondering why customers want what they want. )

Sure, they could simply use carbon steel, and probably save some money here & there, but they seem to have their reason for continuing to machine and heat treat their stainless. Their business, they costs, their decisions ... and I'd not expect that everyone may necessarily agree on such things, even within the company.

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But they don't offer a naked stainless look. In fact the closest is the Nickel Boron - another surface applied coating.

Looking at the S&W website description, they only use these words to describe "slide and barrel 68HRC" and "stainless steel barrel/slide"- no mention of steel treatment Nor do they nitride any other pistol line, like the 1911's, or the revolvers.

Maybe its no longer being applied to the SS?

I think that the "melonite" use was to directly compete with Glock. If you think about it, it is primarily the polymer frame striker pistols that use the nitriding steel treatment (all taking cues from Glock, or Steyr) - very few non-striker pistols use this process.

These are the ones i know of:
Glock, all
M&P, Sigma
SR9, some
XD, most
Walther strikers
Steyr
Caracal

Non striker fired:
Sarsilmaz
Grand Power
Para Ord

H&K and Sig both do..they just put their own name on it.

Lots of companies use some variation of it.

When the SW1911 E-series was first being discussed in greater detail, the black stainless slide models were said to receive Melonite.

The older TP model, too. (Just noticed the link came through as a small image, and that you either have to click on the upper/right corner arrow to get the full-size image, or actually scroll on the bar in the image, but it does list the Melonite. Sorry for the weird link.) http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...SW1911_TFP.pdf

I don't keep up on the monthly (or almost weekly) changes for anything I'm not directly using, supporting or own, so I'd have to call or email to see if there have been any production revisions to a particular model about minor things like finishes.

FWIW, I'd not mind a bare stainless M&P pistol, myself, but the finish du jour for lots of customers, according to market research, seems to be BLACK finishes.

I ordered one of the SW1911SC 5" guns when they were also offered in a "light" alloy finish & a plain stainless slide. I happened to notice it was dropped shortly thereafter from the catalog, and one day remembered to ask about it during a call for something else. I was told that corporate had dropped that variation due to a marketing survey, and that such responses were happening really quickly nowadays.

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