I like Speer's Gold Dot 115 gr JHP for carry, but can not find it right now for a reasonable price. I found the Federal 124 gr Hydra-Shok at a local store and bought two boxes of 50 rounds to try in my 9mm Shield and also my alternate carry Springfield 9mm XDS. The Gold Dot functions 100% in both those pistols. The Federal is an unknown, but that round has been around forever and I believe it will do fine in my guns; have to check that ASAP. My regular practice ammo is Blazer Brass, also 115 gr, but I don't think the "placement on target" of the 124 gr Hydra-Shok will be significantly different at SD ranges.

Question: The Federal is an old round, once one of the best bullets available, and carried my many LE organizations. I suspect there are better, more effective SD loads available, but does anyone have any quantitative, not anecdotal, information on this round in actual use? I am not a believer in +P+, and even prefer not to use +P.

I will probably get more Gold Dot rounds when I can find them at a reasonable price, but for now, assuming the Federals function in my pistols, I will be carrying them. I might even use them alternately with the Speer if they continue to be less expensive and I do not find any negative reports on their function as a SD round. I am not much concerned with accuracy beyond 20 feet or so.....my LEO days are over, now I'm just a regular guy trying to protect me and mine. <g>

Thanks, I welcome your feedback.

They are what they are, reasonably decent rounds in the day , and just as good as they ever were. My current employer , and the large Metropolitan PD used them back in the 9mm era. They performed as expected , no glaring failures or complaints.

The way to test a JHP round is to shoot some plastic water bottles or jugs to see if they expand but ensure they are filled to the top and the cap is screwed tight to create pressure. Most good quality JHP will expand every time.

I think you'll find the Federal's to perform about the same as the Speer Gold Dot's. Although as of late I've been using Winchester's "Train & Defend" line of ammo in my Shield. I like the concept of using training ammo at the range that has the same shape & weight as my carry ammo.

With the other brands, you may find practice ammo in the same weight, but it wont have the same ballistics as your carry ammo because your carry ammo is flat nose hollowpoint and the powder charge may be different. With the Winchester, both are formulated to perform the same, passing on the savings at the range to the consumer... Look at Ammo quest's review on the 147 gr. Winchester defend & you might just change brands!

To further clarify, I do prefer +P in my full sized gun, but I have carried these in the past , and have no objections to using them again if using std vel.

Thanks for the feedback. I have been reading interesting things on the 147 gr. Winchester defend. I guess I'm showing my age, but when my PD issued 9mm S&Ws, we were issued 147 Black Talon rounds for it. Most people at the time thought 147 gr bullets were not as good as the lighter, faster rounds. Now things have changed a bit, especially in the SD arena. I'll have to pick up a box sometime to see how it works in my Shield.

For now I'm going to test the Feds in my two carry pistols to ensure they function 100% and print pretty close to my training load (Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJs), then I'll be able to augment the 20 or so Gold Dots I have left with the Federal rounds. I don't believe I'll do that water jug test, as these rounds have been tested for years by various LE organizations and they are (were) happy with them; but testing them would be fun.....<g>!

You don't say what your pistols happen to be. If one is a 3913/3914, it should work fine and, if it is anything like my gun, you may notice the 124-gr Hydra-shoks are exceptionally accurate. Once I determined that, years ago now, I bought a fair quantity of them in the awful little 20-round boxes ( ) and I am still using them. (I only shoot 10-15 a year.) Obviously I can't think of any reason not to keep using them. I think you'll be happy with them, in spite of all the hoopla about more modern loads being superior in various "tests."

After you watch that video posted by CaptRon956, you can watch a similar video about the 124gn Hydra-Shok. Several others, too.

I almost bought a box of the 147g hydra shocks last night

I've tried WWB, S&B, MagTech and a few others. But lately I've been shooting the "Train & Defend" or "Win3Gun" 147gr subsonic Winchester ammo in my Shield, M&P9 Pro Series (in IDPA), and my Walther PPQ, and both types of ammo have been working great in all of these guns!

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MoreAmmoNeeded!!!

Well that video sucks, been buying hydroshocks since they first came out & just bought more in 3 different calibers for 3 of my guns.
Did buy & shoot the winchesters train & defend & liked em, guess I will buy more in 3 different calibers.

Excuse me for saying but cheaping out on plinking/practice rounds is one thing. If you trust Gold Dots, why would you risk life and limb to save a few bucks?

I alternately carry a S&W M&P 9mm Shield and a Springfield XDS 9mm sub-compact.

Yeah, once I "qualify" myself with the Hydra-shoks, I really don't have any reason to feel that I'm jeopardizing my safety by caring an inferior round. I know there are "better" rounds, like the hot Cor-Bon loads, but I do not want to qualify myself with something that is that unpleasant to shoot on a regular basis! After qualifying myself (50 rounds initially) with SD ammo, I plan to shoot at least another 50 rounds of that load each year. Of course, during the year I practice with a non-SD load, like Blazer Brass FMJs much more often....hopefully 200 rounds a year minimum.

If this is directed at me, the original poster, I don't feel I'm risking life and limb to save a few bucks. I do not feel the Hydra-Shoks are inferior to the Gold Dots, but I asked for feedback to see if anyone else felt that way. With only an exception or two, based on mainly personal opinion, I have not unearthed any reason why the Hyra-Shoks should not serve me well in any practical SD situation I might find myself. I will probably buy the Gold Dots again, but not if their price continues at $20 more per 50 round box than what I consider a good SD round, the Hydra-Shoks.

I have been using Train and Defend in 9mm 147 gr. I like the round for a couple of reasons. Shooting the same round both in practice and for then carrying daily is a win/win situation. In ballistic gel it performs better then most other self defense rounds.

Shooting practice is a cost of owning a weapon you carry daily. I shoot 150 to 250 rounds a month according to if I can shoot out side or have to go to a indoor range because of the cold weather.

I think you should shoot a minimum of 1200 rounds a year for just practice and always the last mag of practice should be the round your carrying! Last year I shot 2380 9mm rounds, just under a box a week on average. There was about a month I didn't shoot due to pulling a back muscle.

Here is a site that I have found to be useful for my self defense ammo selection:
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

Heck, you Air Force guys always have more money for stuff that we retired Navy guys do! <g> I'd love to be able to shoot that much, but money and time isn't available. I applaud your dedication, however.

I ought to know more about the T&D rounds. Is the same bullet used in both training and defense rounds? Or are there two versions of the same bullet weight and ballistics? Like one is a FMJ and the other a more typical JHP? Odd that we street cops used to poo-poo the 147 gr bullets when I was a LEO in the late 90s/early 00s. We thought the round was useful for breaking windshields but not much of a "man stopper". Things and technologies change, eh?

I will eventually try some of the heavier bullets in my Shield 9mm. However, I just ordered a case of 115 gr FMJ for practice, so it might take me a bit longer to go through that than it would for you! <g>

The Win T&D bullets are ballisically the same, the Train is a fmj-tc. (trunicated cone) it is the same exact shape & weight as their defend hollow point bullets.

The Win T&D is all I use in my shield 9 now....

for my Shield 40 however I'm using federal white box 180 gr. HST.

In my 40 Shield I am using Hornady Critical Defense 165gr FXT may switch to T&D but my reloads for practice match the CDs petty close. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Thanks. Good to know the heavier bullets work well in the Shield. How's the "recoil"? Can you tell any difference from shooting the lighter bullets?

The Hydra-Shoks are a poor choice for self-defense loads and I cannot recommend the 115 grain Gold Dots either. Neither has made it onto Dr. Roberts' list.

You can watch the Hydra-Shoks fail miserably here.

Dr. Roberts also has this to say: "Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's."

The 9mm loads that make the list as of February 2015 are:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Dr. Roberts keeps an updated list at Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo.

Thanks for posting. Interesting. I wonder if there is any actual, in field use data for these same bullets? Many years ago there was, but then as you pointed out, bullet design has changed over the years.

Granted the 147 gr is good for SD, but I have two Shield 9's, neither will shoot the 147 gr for any accuracy beyond 10 yds. One likes 115 gr the other 124gr. I can't answer why. All my 3rd gen S&W, 3913-14, 6906-04, all shoot 147gr very well.

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Mike in SouthCentral Kentucky

I have found valid hard data on any rounds in real life use to be essentially impossible to find on the internet. The best I can do is point you to this study showing that calibrated ballistic gelatin is a valid predictor of bullet performance in tissue and this article explaining the why of the 4-layer denim test.

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I forgot it last night, but the same tester also posted a 115gr Gold Dot test video here. It did much better than the Hydra-Shok, but one failed to expand and zipped through two blocks of gelatin.

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Anything on Dr. Roberts' list should serve you well. Personally, I recently switched to an M&P9 Shield and Federal 147 grain HST and have fired multiple boxes through it without issue.

ShootingTheBull410's test is here.
Dr. Roberts' test is here:
9 mm Fed 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1005 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.6
4LD: Pen = 16.5, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.53, RW = 147.5

On the other hand, I don't really think my Shield would ever be used at ranges over about 7-10 yards. I recall the 124 gr 9mm bullet was the original weight, and it seems that all 9mm pistols ought to shoot them reasonably well. I have heard some say many pistols have problems with the 147 gr bullets. But then some say the Golden Saber in any weight doesn't do good in 9mm pistols. I have no experience with the latter; different pistols just seem to prefer different ammo.

PS - I thought I was "bad" having a 9mm Shield and a 9mm Springfield Armory 3.3 (?) pistol; but you have two 9mm Shields! Both mine are compact, both were purchased for SD. I find that I carry the S&W much more....but I want to start carrying the Springfield 50% of the time, or else sell it.

Was it on this forum regarding the 9mm Shield, or on another that some pistols have difficulty feeding the HST bullets? That the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun is certainly important, eh? Even more important than terminal ballistics!

I will have to try some heavier SD bullets in my Shield. I just received a case of 115 gr FMJs for practice, and at 7-10 yards I would not expect too much of a point of impact difference even between 115 and 147 gr projectiles. Anyone done any testing on that?

I have carried the Federal Hydra Shok in 124 gr, +P+, and never heard any complaints about their real world performance. Of course, that was back in the early 90s when the HS bullet design was considered one of the "state-of-the-art" options. Back then for some reason we were also issued 124 gr HS standard pressure for practice and training. The 9mm HS are very accurate out of most pistols. On the other hand, there are better bullets out there now that I'd prefer to use for self defense.

I currently carry Winchester 147 Rangers, which seem to be a pretty decent round, but will be switching to 147 gr. Gold Dots sometime in the near future. In a pinch, I understand that you've got to use what is available. Not sure what I'm going to use when I pull the plug, but from what I've seen in my local area, the selection is not great.

For it's time, Hydra shoks were the best bullet on the market and still rank among the best today. I shot a box of Federal Hydra shok 124 gr. in my shield 9 yesterday. Aside from the funky smell it was just as accurate as my 124 gr. Freedom munitions & cycled well, no problems.

I'm still not switching from my Win Train & defend... My carry ammo of choice for 9mm is Win 147 gr. "Defend"

There are NO magic bullets. In a handgun all that matters is penetration and placement. All else is foolish banter. 18 inches minimum penetration. Look around lotsa folks are THICK, you got to get in to something. Talk to people who have seen hundreds of handgun wounds, they will all tell you in autopsies you can not tell one caliber from another. Penetration and placement should be your mantra for life if you are serious about carrying handguns for protection. They are crude instruments that simply poke holes. Their one asset is that they are easily carried and much better than a fist.

At my department in the mid 1990s we used 147 gr "Black Talons", which was changed to "Rangers" I think around 2000? Our issue gun was a Beretta M92 until we switched to 40 S&W around 2004. No problems with the 147 gr round in my experience, although the "street intelligence" was that the 124 gr, especially plus P, was a "better" round. But then what do cops know?

Roger that on the availability of SD ammo. There is just not much selection. However, I've found that some places, like Academy Sports, allows the shipment of ammo to one's home at no shipping cost. This might be only if you go to their store to order; that's how I did it. There are probably other places like that. Buying small quantities, like 2-3 boxes of SD ammo from regular online stores is just too expensive for me.

Well, I agree with you that placement is important, as is penetration. But assuming we are capable of that, I'd still like to have the "best" bullet go down range!

I hate to admit that I carry a 32 ACP, but I very rarely do. I used to ponder about which HP bullet was the best for it, but then I figured I might as well just us a decent quality FMJ bullet. It would only be used for SD at very, very short ranges, and I figure any HP would just become a "FMJ" bullet once it struck clothing anyway. And I am danged sure ANY 9mm I'd carry for SD is better than ANY 32 bullet!

Interestingly the hydra shok outperforms the modern rounds in .380 acp

My personal favorite choice in hp ammo is...

Federal HST 124gr standard pressure. Shown to reach 15in penetration in tests with reliability and consistency. The +p stuff actually penetrates less, so I don't get it unless it's all that's available.

Most pistols feed and shoot 124gr stuff well.

I fall back on gold dot, winchester pdx1/Ranger, or the the Hornady critical lines. All standard pressure stuff, as they all seem to penetrate better in that loading... +p expands a little more, but I feel penetration is much more important than 1-2mm more expansion.

I don't get the hydrashock due to its lackluster performance through the denim test, bare gel tests were pretty good though. Summer use should be fine but winter use would be out because of that. It's barrier performance is not the best either.

Hydrashoks are dated, but good ammo....the HST 's are better.
I have 124 grain HST and some PDX1 all 124 grain variety.
The 147 grain are heavy and slow in my opinion.
But to each his own. carry what you like.

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

The old Federal standard pressure loaded 115 JHP has an excellent track record. Federal 9BP

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Saved by the grace of God

If Gold Dots work in your guns, the Federal rounds should work just as well.
I've found Gold Dots to generally be slightly longer in overall length than various Federal rounds (Hydrashoks & HSTs)

I carry Federal HST 124grn standard pressure in my carry 9mm's, Federal HST 230grn standard pressure in my 45acp's, and Gold Dots in my carry 380acp's (because the 380acp HST only just came out but it has been shown so far to not live up to the HST reputation)

Here's the way I think of it,

The human body is made up of 70-80% water.

The name HYDRA-shock.......hydro means water, human body is mostly water.

You get the rest.

It only makes sense doesn't it?

So what you're saying is that it's only 70% effective?

Lmk when they come out with a Bone-shok or a Denim-shok

No, that doesn't make sense. The Hydra was a was a mythical creature slayed by Hercules as one of his Labors. Therefore the Hydra-shock is only useful for electrocuting a Hydra.