https://store.apextactical.com/WebDi...?categoryId=54

"Accuracy in your Smith & Wesson M&P not what you expected? Not what you think acceptable? That brand name aftermarket 'match grade' barrel not living up to your expectations? Well, Apex has the solution.

Coming soon, the new 9mm Apex Grade Gunsmith Fit or Semi Drop-In replacement barrel for the M&P. The new barrels will be available in either 4.25" or 5.00" versions. The Semi Drop-In version is easily fitted by the end user. For those demanding the most in accuracy from their M&P, the Gunsmith Fit version is the answer and requires installation by a competent gunsmith."

Thoughts?

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Take your time, fast. J.Hughes

Ill buy one....me wonders why a gunsmith needs to install...

The same reason a gunsmith needs to install a target barrel in a 1911. It has to fit precisely and tight. A little bit of "slop" in the barrel fit and lockup will manifest itself as sloppy groups down range.

I hope they sell like hot cakes so Apex will expand the line to 40 S&W.

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Jim - M&P Pro 40L/Shield 40

I knew many people back in the day who put Bar Sto barrels in their 5906's cause they couldn't hit **** either.

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Sure you did

Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.

I have a 1911, 45 and a Ruger 22/45, that will benchrest 1+ inch groups at 25 yards, but my M&P Pro 9 will only get 4-5 inch groups at that distance, no matter what bullet weight I use. Still think it's the hand?
When I shoot IDPA matches and I get an extra point down, because the shot goes just outside of the perforation, I can't help but wonder if it was me or the gun. If the gun was capable of better groups, I would have my answer. I for one will get the barrel and install it, as soon as it's available.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

Really apples and oranges. MUCH easier to shoot a 1911 or 22/45 accurately than it is a striker fired pistol. But 4-5" is pretty bad and I imagine the gun's accuracy could be a factor.

What a load of bunk.

I had 4 other people shoot my FS M&P9 including 3 military guys who were well qualified with a pistol. Every one of us was shooting low-left. Took a trip to S&W to make the gun reasonably accurate. Every other 9mm I own can still outshoot the M&P.

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-Mike-

I'm wondering where it hits now that it's back from S&W.

I've only had it shot by two other shooters. Now it just shoots low. But at least it's low-center.

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-Mike-

I hope Apex sells a lot of these and the company does well. Even so, it's not necessary. The percentage of people who are good enough shots to actually use this accuracy improvement, is very small. In fact, that level of shooter is probably looking for a different gun anyway.

[sarcasm]I'm glad S&W was able to fix this for you. I'll bet that as your experience with the gun increases, those low shots will move up toward the center. I'm sure the barrel just needs to be broken in and will get better with time. At least that's been what I've learned through conversing with hundreds of members here.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, have any of these shooters shot it from a rest?

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Freedom isn't free.

Are you expecting the POI to be the top of the front blade sight as the M&Ps the POI is the front dot. This got me at first as I shot my M&ps low and I own 5 of them. I don't like shooting the dot as I didn't learn to shoot this way. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Not shooting to point of aim is meaningless with respect to accuracy. Group size is what counts.

Size does matter, although smaller is better in this instance.

Just an FYI: for a right-handed shooter, the 7:00-8:00 area (low left) is known to target shooters as "jerkers corner".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Incorrect. Accuracy is a KNOWN issue with the M&P's in 9mm.



C4

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S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

That doesn't sell specialty barrels!

M&P states the expected accuracy in their users manual. If that's not good enough, buy an Apex trigger and barrel. Myself, I have a LOT of work to do before I get to that point.

If somebody wants to improve a production car, that's their business.

Even if it's a Yugo, if somebody wants to improve it, it's their business.

If you tell me that it isn't worthwhile, I'll take that into consideration but it may not change my mind.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The M&P is a duty weapon, not a target gun



Mine have all proven to keep 2" groups at the limit of our indoor range. I do not need more than that

Yes it's a service gun. Yes the M&P is used in competiton. A lot of people like to improve the performance of their weapon because they enjoy it and because they can. If the only reason I had a S&W was because it was a duty pistol, I wouldn't bother with this forum.

You wouldn't come here? That would be a loss all the way around.

Are you trying to say that the only reason you come here is to learn about alternative parts for your M&Ps?

I know lots of folks like to swap parts. That is part of the reason for the popularity of the 10-22 and AR style rifles as well.

Llando88, the original poster, asked for thoughts on the new part offering and I gave mine.

How about letting us know your thoughts on the new part offering?

I target shoot all my guns regardless of what they may or may have been intended for. I have alternate barrels for my Glocks and yes they are more accurate at the range. They are also perceived to be duty guns. I suppose I could say target shooting is not their purpose, but what fun would there be in that.

What distance are you shooting at? The gun test standards for pistol group sizes are done at 25 yards. If you're getting 2" groups at that distance with an m&p, with a factory barrel, you have a one in a million.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

When I clean my M&P, I can just pop the barrel out and clean it. I am not sure how it would work if gun smith has to fit it, how can I clean the barrel. My gun is in the shop for upgrading the apex kit, will definitely look at this after couple of months.

A fitted barrel can still be removed from the slide.

It only has to be fit on initial installation, after that the owner can pop the barrel out as normal. The fitted barrels are made intentionally too big and a gunsmith takes metal off the barrel to get the tightest possible fit and still have functionality.

My M&P 9 FS has only fair accuracy. 3" groups at 15 yards rested and 5" at 25 yards rested. My 9mm Shield is actually better at 15 yards. I found some light pitting in one groove and S&W said to send it in. If they replace the barrel, I'm hoping for better accuracy. I'm not inclined to pour money into this gun. I have a Beretta M9 and a CZ75 B, both in 9mm that are 2" or slightly better guns at 25 yards rested with the right ammo. Their $150 or so cost difference is worth it to me. I'll keep the M&P simply because it is such a hoot to shoot.

I'm sure Apex will make some kind of accuracy claim. On their website they are claiming sub 2" groups at 50 yards and sub 1" groups at 25 yards. This is indeed better than what S&W says their barrels will do.

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Freedom isn't free.

Wow, if thats true, thats impressive.

I agree. Impressive claim. I wonder how many buyers will understand that to mean firing with match ammo in a barrel test fixture to remove the human and bad ammo element from the equation.

Besides, once S&W switched to the 1:10 twist on the 9mm M&P rifling, the accuracy has been match grade from the factory.

As soon as everyone understands that shooting better cannot be achieved by anything except practice, and that buying after market fittings for a perfectly good pistol is not the answer, our wallets will all be in better shape.

That said, I have never seen anyone admit that the money they just spent on this or that after market gunsmithing or fitting did anything other than make them a crack marksman. LOL

So, I suggest everyone buy a pistol of good quality and several cases of good ammo, and practice, practice, practice. Your gun gets broken in, and you become a better shot.

You and I both know this will never happen. The entire gun industry in the US is built on the mythology that better equipment will make you an amazing shot.

OK, it's not all mythology. There is some truth to the idea that better equipment will make you a better shot. However, without the dedication to practice and training, that improvement will never be realized.

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Freedom isn't free.

Good equipment will not make you a better shoot but will make your groups tighter. It may also give you pride in what you are shooting and want to shoot it more. You can practice till your finger falls off but you are not going to shoot 2" 25 yard groups with a gun that will only shoot 3 1/2" off a rest. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

I guess I'm not following your logic here. Isn't a tighter group better?

Obviously you can't consistently shoot a 1" group with a gun that's only capable of a 3" group.

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Freedom isn't free.

I just got back from the range with my Apex'd barrel 5" Pro. I was benchrest shooting 25 yards, toward a bank, covered in snow and the reflection didn't do me any good, but I still shot 2", five shot groups with it. That's a far cry from the 3.5" to 6" groups I was getting with the factory barrel, which is a 1 in 10 twist, build date, July 2015.

I've shot a few IDPA matches with the Apex barrel so far and whereas I was usually 30-35 points down, I'm now averaging 20-28. A lot of shots that used to be just outside the perforation, are now inside of it.
The barrel is worth every penny to me. Your mileage may vary.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

If you want to shoot better, you have to practice more. I don't think you'd get any argument there. It's the "perfectly good pistol" portion of your statement that comes into play. The M&P series is a perfectly good self defense pistol, and easily will put shots into a bad guys chest at self defense distances when the need arises. That's what it was built for, and it does its job.

However, most M&P 9mm guns will not accurately put shots into the center of a bullseye at 25 yards. I don't think that's what Smith and Wesson was trying to accomplish when they made them, so I don't think I would stop calling it a "perfectly good pistol", but it could stand to be improved if that's what you are trying to do with it.

If you are using your M&P as a CCW, I don't think it needs an Apex barrel. But for scored paper target shooting, it can make a difference. If you routinely shoot outside the rings entirely, you need practice and not a new barrel. But if you find yourself skirting the lines from between a 10 to a bullseye or a 9 to a 10, then the Apex barrel will likely increase your average.

I need more practice before I can reliably hit a 2" bullseye offhand at 25 yards, but my scores have definitely gone up 10 points or so since I had the Apex barrel installed. I'm getting fewer 8s and 9s and getting closer to that elusive X ring!

I find that very hard to believe. I'd have to see them shoot 10 shots at 50 yards. Some of the best custom 1911's won't group that well at 50 yards. It is not common for a pistol that groups 1" at 25 yards to shoot a group twice as big at 50 yards. Usually the groups at 50 yards are much bigger. Of course if Apex is just shooting 3 shots at each distance, it is possible to get those shots to group that small once in a while.

Hello,

Actually we shoot 5 shot groups from the Ransom at 25 yards and at 50 yards. We shoot 5 round groups for a couple of reasons:

The first is that of time use. Until we have our new range facility built, we have to use a public range which is only open Thursday through Sunday. Depending upon the number of shooters, the bench space and time is at a premium. The shooting periods are also only 20 minutes long, so between initial set up of the Rest, proper seating of the firearm into the mounting panels via live fire for 5 shots, the actual time we have to shoot each gun becomes very limited. Also keep in mind that like the US Modular Handgun System trials, we use slide mounted sights to align for each round fired. My eyes aren't what they used to be, so eye strain can set in pretty quickly.

The second reason is that for our purposes, a 5 shot group is still statistically relevant for our application. 10 round groups only increases ammo consumption and the probability of larger groups due to frame or fixture shifting. In CA, since we can only have 10 round magazines, anyone who knows how difficult it is to stuff that 10th round into the magazine will understand what a pain it is. Fortunately we will soon be in a free state...

We did all our initial testing at 50 yards when we were developing our barrels, using the same sighting procedures as we do for 25 yards. This was to prove that our barrels would exceed the accuracy standard set forth in the MHS trial specs (their target is a 4" circle at 50 meters). Our barrels would consistently shoot better than 2" at 50 yards. We even compared factory and other aftermarket barrels for comparison. Our best non official group was .593" at 50 yards. I say non official because the target clearly shows the 5 shot group, however there is a 6th round on the paper that we cannot account for. This group had to be thrown out because we could not determine the origin of the shot. My suspicion is that another shooter on the line hit our target. But even with that 6th round, the group opens up to 1.19" @ 50.

I decided to stop the 50 yard testing after all the data showed that with proper ammunition, our gunsmith fit barrels would consistently shoot sub 2" at fifty. The sighting for each shot at that distance increased my fatigue, plus we were constantly having to run back and forth to remove and reset fresh targets for the next test gun. It hot old pretty pretty fast.

Our best group at 25 yards measured .313" for the 5 shot group with one police officer's duty gun. Our average was realistically about 3/4" for the 5 shots @ 25.

I engineered our barrel based upon the physics of what I saw happening within the M&P design. That is why we can make the claims we do. No one thought a polymer framed striker fired pistol could go toe to toe with high end 1911s, but ours can.

Can you clarify using "slide mounted sights to align for each shot fired"? I have a little experience with the Ransom Rest and once the gun was settled into the rest, I never realigned it for each shot. I am confused. I have recently heard of some souped up Springfield Armory XD's which have shot well at 50 yards off hand, so yeah I know that plastic pistols can be made to shoot well at that distance, but I'm still skeptical about the 2" groups.

Unfortunately, the polymer frames and urethane grip adapters allow for slippage which is why you don't see a lot of positive accuracy results from the Ransom with poly guns. Steel framed 1911s don't suffer from the same effects. I have been mounting a Trijicon RMR sight for most of my testing now because of the eye strain. What it showed me was that any external force on the frame can affect the alignment of the gun relative to the target- including the trigger actuating attachment on the Ransom. That is why for each shot I use the optic to align the gun on the test target. This is also the way the shooter is going to use the pistol anyway.

The fact is that no one thought that a polymer framed, striker fired pistol with service tolerances could even approach the mechanical accuracy of a custom 1911, yet we have data that proves otherwise.

I invite skepticism and in many ways I am a skeptic as well. But I also know from testing that sub 2" groups are possible.

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Mk 2 test target 4_3_15 Guardian Gold ammo.jpg (81.2 KB, 97 views)

From what I've seen, XD's are hardly the most accurate pistols (quite the contrary). I wonder what modifications were done to make it accurate at those distances.

Back in March we where at the range had a few bullets left so I tried 50yards off hand (no rest or bench) I was very pleased with results (pic below @ 50yards) With more practice at that yardage I can see me getting tighter groups (around 2") it takes more accuracy on my part but from what I'm getting at 25 yards I sure can't blame the pistol.

My buddy has a high dollar 1911 he can't come close to my groups now. I'll tell him don't get frustrated just need more practice.

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As I am getting close to buying an M&P C.O.R.E., I am starting to wonder if it's barrel is an improvement over an M&P stock barrel. If its not, that would be a deal killer.

The C.O.R.E. has the same barrel as the others.

This following thread-link, about Apex barrels started two years ago and is still going. It includes commentary by Randy Lee, of Apex, about the new barrels. It's a very long thread, but very informative.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....el-M-amp-P-9mm

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

I enjoy a fine weapon. I don't care if its designed for duty/carry or what. Who cares - some of us seem to think there is something wrong with trying to get the best M&P possible, even if I'm not good enough to use it! I would not pass up the chance to get a really nice car - even if I can't ever even think of driving in a NASCAR race! Why is this so hard to understand? You don't HAVE to buy an Apex barrel just because they sell them. Why would anyone care if I have one on my gun? How many of us have a big diesel pick up that we drive back and forth to work???

I know one thing, I shoot at 25 yards metal plates. I start at 12" and go down to 3" on my range. In my back yard I have an 8" plate at 20 yards. With the stock barrel the 8" plate at 20 yards you really really have to concentrate to make sure you hit it and then you will still miss easily.
I put a SL barrel in it and now I can hit the 8" plate a lot more regularly and easier.
Is it a target pistol no, but still like to be in an 8" plate at 25 yards. If you are putting groups in a 4" cluster than that 8" plate gets to be a lot harder to hit. So I agree that after market barrels are better in the accuracy department.

I find myself faltering on getting the M&P C.O.R.E. The look and the ergonomics are great, but apparently the the barrel is not. This seems odd to me as the cost is high. Storm Lake barrels are considerably higher in cost than the Lone Wolf that you can get for a Glock. An Apex barrel is probably going to be costly.

I haven't fired my M&P Pro 9mm yet, but am hopeful that accuracy will exceed my capabilities as a shooter. I load my own ammo so can tinker some. I load mainly124 grain FMJ. Any suggestions on a bullet weight to wring the most out of the Pro?

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Saved by the grace of God

...
... i just had my barrels coated too.

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M&P OTAKU

Pyro,
I have never tried the Lone Wolf barrels, but Storm Lake always seems to be accurate.

Replacing a factory barrel with a aftermarket drop in barrel on a carry gun is a waste of time and money.

Been there done that. Didn't make a difference.

An aftermarket fitted barrel properly fitted might make a difference. But is it worth it?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

It absolutely agree that is a waste of time on carry gun, but I absolutely disagree that it is a waste of time on a range gun. Your experience may vary.

I never said anything about range guns. But even on a range gun, if the barrel isn't properly fitted, it won't make much difference.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

not sure I agree... My carry gun may save my life ! I want it as accurate as I can get.. my family is a lot more important then a bulls eye at the range !!!