Tried 124gr in my Shield 9mm, not thrilled

[Mr. Blenderson]

I've always shot 115gr FMJ for range target ammo in my Shield 9mm, and carried 115gr standard pressure Gold Dot JHP as defense rounds.

I had been reading everything I could find on different bullet weights and their performance in a small gun, and had come to the conclusion that 124 would be better for me than 115. So I ordered up a bunch of 124gr to try, some FMJ, standard pressure Gold Dots, and +P Gold Dots.

I found that I was more accurate on follow-up shots and 5-shot groupings with the standard pressure, so I decided against carrying the +P. Didn't really notice much of a difference between 115 and 124 in terms of accuracy or recoil.

The only thing I did notice, was that the casings kept hitting me in the head. I've shot about 700 rounds of 115 through the Shield and not a single one hit me. With all 3 types of 124 1-2 out of every 10 rounds flew back and hit me! It's annoying, and I'm not thrilled about the idea of a hot brass casing hitting me in the face in a potential self-defense scenario.

Definitely switching back to 115gr. Wish I wouldn't have bought 1,000 rounds of the 124gr

[OKFC05]

Well, golly gee whillikers!
I'm going to keep my shield away from yours, so it won't hear how bad 124gr 9mm cartridges are for it. Mine just eats them up all day, any day in BUG matches and puts the empty cases about 6 feet to the right.
Neither my gun nor I care whether the ammo is 115gr or 124gr or +P within 20yds.
What did you do to make yours picky?

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

Well, golly gee whillikers!
I'm going to keep my shield away from yours, so it won't hear how bad 124gr 9mm cartridges are for it. Mine just eats them up all day, any day in BUG matches and puts the empty cases about 6 feet to the right.
Neither my gun nor I care whether the ammo is 115gr or 124gr or +P within 20yds.
What did you do to make yours picky?

Ha not sure! I've shot 115 since then and they all flew to the right. A couple guys at my local range said they have the same issue with all M&P's.

[hoc9sw]

My Shield 9 much prefers 124g to 115g. Very interesting.

[Ranger17]

apologies for the potentially dumb question/post, but is the 124gn ammo new "brand" ammo, reman ammo, reloads, etc?

I've only ran 115 in my PS Shield so far but have read elsewhere that it can like 124 gn ammo. So maybe it's not the Shield but the actual rounds causing the issue?

I will say 3k rounds thru my various MP's, all 115fmj, and no issues or eject problems either

[Rpg]

This is a common problem with the M&P's.

Extractor needs work.

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by Ranger17

apologies for the potentially dumb question/post, but is the 124gn ammo new "brand" ammo, reman ammo, reloads, etc?

I've only ran 115 in my PS Shield so far but have read elsewhere that it can like 124 gn ammo. So maybe it's not the Shield but the actual rounds causing the issue?

I will say 3k rounds thru my various MP's, all 115fmj, and no issues or eject problems either

The FMJ's are these, 1000 Rounds of Bulk 9mm Ammo by MBI - 124gr FMJ, which have once-fired casings. But the same thing was happening with factory Gold Dots.

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by Rpg

This is a common problem with the M&P's.

Extractor needs work.

What do you mean by "extractor needs work?"

I wasn't trying to say that there was anything wrong with it, just that I found a reason to use 115 instead of 124.

[Rpg]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blenderson

What do you mean by "extractor needs work?"

I wasn't trying to say that there was anything wrong with it, just that I found a reason to use 115 instead of 124.

You've discovered a problem with the pistol, not the ammo.

A properly tuned pistol should drop all standard loads in an area the size of a hat about 45 degrees from the line of sight.

An untuned pistol should not pitch empties at the shooter. If it does, something's wrong with the pistol, not the ammo.

I understand your initial post was about ammo, not a complaint about your pistol. You had it backwards.

Call S&W and ask for a shipping lable. They'll send you one and fix your pistol at no charge to you.

[Fastbolt]

It's not impossible that you've encountered an instance where 1 or 2 unrecognized shooter issues have been made noticeable by a change in ammunition (bullet weight and pressure level).

The standard pressure 115gr loads are typically at the lower end of the recoil energy range. This can result in slide velocity being a bit slower, which can also have an effect on ejection patterns.

The use of the P+ loads can have an effect when it comes to accurate "follow-up shots", due to the slower recoil management.

The brass-to-head issue might be something as simple as the different bullet weight load changing the slide velocity just enough, with your grip and degree of wrist lock, to result in a different slide velocity that affects the timing of the ejector kicking the empty case free.

It's also not uncommon for this sort of issue to be more commonly experienced when it's the last round being fired, because the empty case (during extraction) isn't being partially supported by the "next round" in the magazine. It changes how high the case is positioned when being hit by the ejector, which changes the angle of "departure" for the ejected case. Increasing or decreasing slide velocity can have a further effect on this sort of thing.

A firm handshake grip, supported by a nicely firm locked wrist (locked in both the horizontal and vertical planes), can often resolve this sort of issue for many shooters. ("Tuning" recoil spring rates is another way used by some folks, but it's best done when getting input from the gun company.)

I can't remember if it was after my 2nd, 3rd or 4th M&P Pistol armorer class, but it was mentioned that the M&P MIM extractor had been revised to give it a a sharper hook, and more rearward rake, and the reason offered was that the engineers had decided it would help some shooters using higher pressure loads. Then, it was sometime last year when I noticed the part number for some new extractors I was shipped had a new part number.

Our folks using M&P 9's (we also issue .40 & .45) have been using both 124gr Speer Lawman TMJ and 124gr +P JHP's for training/qual, and extraction/ejection has been normal (presuming the shooter was using normal, good technique).

None of the Shield 9 users have been complaining about ejection patterns, either.

None of the many assorted M&P's, Glocks or SIG's being used by our folks would be able to pile empties onto the ground in a space the size of a hat, though. Occasionally some of the 1911's in use by some of our instructors, perhaps, using some types of ammo, but some of those are high end guns and/or have been tweaked by folks who understand the guns.

Sometimes the "dance" of shooter, gun and ammo can yield some variable and interesting results, and those results may change as the influences take on the variations seen in subtly shifting Venn Diagrams.

[Arik]

If you don't see a recoil difference how are follow up shots slower? Also, why not 124 standard pressure

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[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by Arik

If you don't see a recoil difference how are follow up shots slower? Also, why not 124 standard pressure

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

To clarify, I was testing 2 things. 115 vs 124 and also 124 standard pressure vs +P.

I didn't notice much difference in recoil or accuracy between 115 and 124.

I did notice a difference in recoil between 124 SP and +P, but was equally accurate with both in slow, controlled shooting. It was when I did quick 5-shot drills that I noticed that my follow-up shots were far less accurate with the +P.

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

It's not impossible that you've encountered an instance where 1 or 2 unrecognized shooter issues have been made noticeable by a change in ammunition (bullet weight and pressure level).

The standard pressure 115gr loads are typically at the lower end of the recoil energy range. This can result in slide velocity being a bit slower, which can also have an effect on ejection patterns.

The use of the P+ loads can have an effect when it comes to accurate "follow-up shots", due to the slower recoil management.

The brass-to-head issue might be something as simple as the different bullet weight load changing the slide velocity just enough, with your grip and degree of wrist lock, to result in a different slide velocity that affects the timing of the ejector kicking the empty case free.

It's also not uncommon for this sort of issue to be more commonly experienced when it's the last round being fired, because the empty case (during extraction) isn't being partially supported by the "next round" in the magazine. It changes how high the case is positioned when being hit by the ejector, which changes the angle of "departure" for the ejected case. Increasing or decreasing slide velocity can have a further effect on this sort of thing.

A firm handshake grip, supported by a nicely firm locked wrist (locked in both the horizontal and vertical planes), can often resolve this sort of issue for many shooters. ("Tuning" recoil spring rates is another way used by some folks, but it's best done when getting input from the gun company.)

I can't remember if it was after my 2nd, 3rd or 4th M&P Pistol armorer class, but it was mentioned that the M&P MIM extractor had been revised to give it a a sharper hook, and more rearward rake, and the reason offered was that the engineers had decided it would help some shooters using higher pressure loads. Then, it was sometime last year when I noticed the part number for some new extractors I was shipped had a new part number.

Our folks using M&P 9's (we also issue .40 & .45) have been using both 124gr Speer Lawman TMJ and 124gr +P JHP's for training/qual, and extraction/ejection has been normal (presuming the shooter was using normal, good technique).

None of the Shield 9 users have been complaining about ejection patterns, either.

None of the many assorted M&P's, Glocks or SIG's being used by our folks would be able to pile empties onto the ground in a space the size of a hat, though. Occasionally some of the 1911's in use by some of our instructors, perhaps, using some types of ammo, but some of those are high end guns and/or have been tweaked by folks who understand the guns.

Sometimes the "dance" of shooter, gun and ammo can yield some variable and interesting results, and those results may change as the influences take on the variations seen in subtly shifting Venn Diagrams.

I certainly could be doing any number of things wrong, I'm still a relatively new pistol shooter and only just recently realized that I had been doing a bunch of things wrong for the past several months. I'm constantly working on and trying to improve my technique, but I'm still at the novice level.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blenderson

To clarify, I was testing 2 things. 115 vs 124 and also 124 standard pressure vs +P.

I didn't notice much difference in recoil or accuracy between 115 and 124.

I did notice a difference in recoil between 124 SP and +P, but was equally accurate with both in slow, controlled shooting. It was when I did quick 5-shot drills that I noticed that my follow-up shots were far less accurate with the +P.

That makes more sense

I carry Gold Dot 124gr +P but I carry a Glock 19 not a Shield. I tried them in my Glock 43 (Shield like) and didn't see a big difference in recoil or recovery (from the 19 to the 43). However, there is no point in the +P out of the 43 so in that one I use standard pressure 124gr Gold Dots

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[McE]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Hopefully it's not compelling enough with its prescriptive alarmist tone to dissuade new Shield owners from using 124grn.

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by McE

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Hopefully it's not compelling enough with its prescriptive alarmist tone to dissuade new Shield owners from using 124grn.

Just sharing facts about what I found after shooting a bunch of rounds, nothing really prescriptive or alarmist in there

[Ballistic147]

I've shot 115, 124, and 147 out of my Shield in standard and +P. The 115 consistantly shot an inch or two high. The 124 shot to POA and the 147 shot an inch or two low. I might have that backwards since it's been over a year that I've shot anything g other than 124. I would definitely feel confident in accuracy with all three bullet weights in an SD situation. None of these have ever chunked out brass that hit me. Granted, my Shield doesn't drop all brass in a circle the size of a hat (although that would make picking up brass a lot easier) but it all comes out somewhere to the right.

Between standard pressure and +P I don't really notice a difference in recoil between the two and POI is the same as standard pressure in regards to their respective bullet weights. On the other hand, my wife does not like +P in her Shield and she claims there is a very noticeable difference in recoil. Guess it really depends on the individual.

[Targets Guy]

My Shield likes the 124 over the 115.

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blenderson

I certainly could be doing any number of things wrong, I'm still a relatively new pistol shooter and only just recently realized that I had been doing a bunch of things wrong for the past several months. I'm constantly working on and trying to improve my technique, but I'm still at the novice level.

Maybe a local range might have an experienced match shooter, or an instructor who could help you with some of the fundamentals?

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Ballistic147

... On the other hand, my wife does not like +P in her Shield and she claims there is a very noticeable difference in recoil. Guess it really depends on the individual.

Yep, really subjective. Sometimes the same person might "experience" felt recoil differently from one range session to the next, depending how he/she feels that day.

I've seen a pretty fair number of men & women seem startled by the small difference in felt recoil (perceived by them) between 9mm standard pressure, +P & +P+ ... and then other, similarly "average" experienced and modestly skilled shooters seem surprised that they felt no difference when I told them they'd just shot a mixed mag of standard, +P & +P+ 9mm loads.

Just depends.

Training, practice and repeated exposure can often change someone's perspective about such things, too.

[27Veer]

I guess I'm lucky both my Shield and CORE shoot Ranger +P+ 127 grain bullets in the A Zone at 15 meters. I developed a load using 124 grain Montana Gold that hits the same POI , I'm going to keep that combination.

[shawn mccarver]

If there are no shooter errors, and you are taking empties to the face, your pistol has a problem, and needs to go back to S&W for service. Period.

That is not right, and it should not be accepted or excused.

Just my thoughts.

[Mr. Blenderson]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

Maybe a local range might have an experienced match shooter, or an instructor who could help you with some of the fundamentals?

Thinking about doing that. Maybe I just need to get some more time with the 124's and focus on my technique.

Heading to the range tomorrow after I pick up my shiny new 686+!

[kmanick]

I shoot 115, 124 and 147 ball ammo all the time. I always look for what's on sale and just buy it.
Aluminum or Brass (no steel that jammed)
I 've had no problems with any of the 3, I personally like Blazer Brass 124 best for practice rounds and carry Federal 124 Hydro shok HP .

[Rpg]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blenderson

What do you mean by "extractor needs work?"

I wasn't trying to say that there was anything wrong with it, just that I found a reason to use 115 instead of 124.

Your pistol should not fling cases at your face with any commercial ammo.

If you are willing to accept this flaw, that's your choice, but I wouldn't use such a firearm for sd unless I had no other choice.

Flinging hot cases in your face is a quick way to develop a flinch. This can be tough to fix.

Fixing the defective extractor-ejector is simple. But it's a gun problem, not an ammo problem.

Luckily, sounds like your pistol is under warranty, so it won't cost anything to get it fixed.

Loyalty to a brand is no excuse for settling for a problem product.

Contact S&W, get them to fix it. Tell them your pistol ejects hot shell casings into your face. They'll fix it (simple fix - this isn't the first such complaint: they know how to fix it).

I'm always perplexed by those whose loyalty to a manufacturer or a product leads them to settle for an inferior product.

[Mr. Blenderson]

I'm not saying that there's not something wrong with it, but I'd like to rule out user error before I ship it off and only have one firearm in the house while it's getting fixed, if that's what's necessary. I like to have two guns in the house for my wife and I if needed, and right now it's just the Shield and the 686+ I'm picking up tomorrow. I sold my Glock last week and have only had the Shield since then while I wait out the silly one-week waiting period here in South Florida.

[Rpg]

I suspect you'll be fine with only the 686 for a couple weeks.

You'll be much happier in the long run with two reliable guns in a few weeks than you would be (or I would be) with a fussy, unreliable pistol: essentially what you have in your Shield.

I wouldn't pay anything for such a pistol. If you don't get it fixed, it has no resale value, assuming you were to disclose this problem to a potential buyer. You could always sell it without disclosing the defect, but that's not how I'd do it.

Get it fixed.

[Fastbolt]

FWIW, blind "brand loyalty" has always puzzled me, too. That sort of thing is fine for being a fan of some professional sports team, though.

Trying to diagnose a "problem" reported by a gun owner/user is difficult to do without actually examining the gun, and then considering, and sequentially eliminating, all the normal probable causes.

"Brass-to-face" usually falls under the general heading of an extraction/ejection problem, but the causes can include any or all the associated factors in play ... meaning the gun, the shooter, the ammo and maybe even the environmental conditions in which the "problem" is happening.

The gun company only has control over the gun they produce.

The major gun companies for which I've been trained as an armorer have typically said they use one or another of the major brand American-made ammo lines for their testing. One company said that when they make a large sale to a LE agency, they like to ask what ammo the agency may be considering using, and then they check to see if they've had any recent experience in test-fire using that ammo.

When I bought my second G26 (2010), after having fired close to 14K rounds through my first one, as I recall, I started to experience some erratic ejection issues (and 1 extraction issue I attributed to the recycled/ex-duty ammo, as the recycled round involved had a noticeably nicked and scarred case rim).

It didn't matter whether I was using standard pressure major-maker loads, or +P or +P+ loads. Erratic ejection occurred (brass to face, close to head or wildly to the left).

I tried a couple of the then-normal corrections, including a new extractor, dressing a couple nasty burrs in the extractor recess (possibly not removed when the slide was machined and then tumbled in their media-filled equipment, according to a tech, told to me later). Replacing the original ejector with the new style helped a little, as did replacing the RSA. Not completely "fixed", though.

I eventually called and discussed the issue with a Glock tech (a few times, spread over a while, as it wasn't an EDC gun for me at the time and i had other things to occupy me).

While the tech offered to have the gun returned for inspection, I wanted to try correcting it a little more, myself. I was told to try some different extractors (sent to me) and some different ejectors (from the rep, and some more sent to me), and a new RSA.

I eventually found the right combination of parts that corrected the condition. Annoying to have it happen, but that can sometimes happen with "parts is parts" design guns. That G26 has been just fine for several thousand rounds, using a variety of different loads.

It's always possible that a particular gun may have an unrecognized defective part, or a parts spec issue.

It's also possible that a less experienced shooter may be causing, or helping contribute, to the observed problem (meaning the observed problem may be a symptom of a different, underlying problem).

Then, there's the possibility for an ammo problem to rear its ugly head. Now that the major makers have been pumping out products round-the-clock, with a couple of them claiming they produce a million rounds every 24 hours, it's not exactly a shock to consider glitches with QC efforts, even great ones, might pop up a little more often, including issues related to production equipment being run round-the-clock.

The OP can see if a more experienced shooter experiences the same brass-to-face issue with the same gun and ammo he's using ... or he could have S&W inspect the gun under their warranty (which includes free shipping both ways).

If another shooter, perhaps a more experienced one, doesn't experience the same problem, it's a hint it might not be a gun problem.

If the company checks the gun and doesn't experience the issue? Then it's back to the shooter and ammo.

If the company replaces a couple parts (barrel, extractor, etc) and the gun works? Cool.

If the repaired gun works fine for test-fire, but the 'brass-to-face' issue still occurs, albeit less frequently? Well, maybe a little more refinement of the shooter's technique is still in order.

Correcting a "problem" is often much easier than diagnosing what problem, or problems, require fixing.

[Mr. Blenderson]

So I'm pretty sure that the issue was my technique. Had someone at the range watch me shoot and he said I wasn't locking my wrists which made excess muzzle flip. Shot 100 rounds of 124 without taking a single case to the face.

[Fastbolt]

Don't think you've discovered something new.

FWIW, it's not an uncommon "rule of thumb" to hear a significant number of experienced firearm instructors and armorers opine that day in and day out, close to 95% of reported "gun problems" are actually shooter-induced, in some manner or other ... 3% are ammo-related ... and 1% are actually gun-related. (I generally lump shooter-maintenance issues in with shooter-issues, since it's usually something not done, or done incorrectly, by the shooter in the way of gun maintenance. I consider any magazine problems to be more or less a "gun" issue, as it's an assembly integral to the normal functioning of the gun.)

[Bonephish]

My 9C threw brass in my face until I installed an Apex extractor. The Apex trigger, sear and other parts make it a whole different pistol.