I would suspect that more gun owners (a lot more) have had ND/AD than have used their weapon in self defense. That's why I prefer them, possibly saving me from a brain fart......NO one is immune, no matter how "trained" you think you are.
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Why do you need a safety?
- Thread starter amcline82
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I wholeheartedly agree with your first and last sentence.
However, would you carry a revolver that doesn't have a manual safety?
What would be the distinction between carrying a DAO revolver and a Glock equipped with an NY trigger?
Amp
Member
Here is what works for me; I used to carry 3rd gen Smiths and got used to throwing the safety up/forward. Got myself a new Shield w/safety and could not remember safety up or down when I heard a bump in the night. So the Shield went to the safe and the 3913 got re-lamped and serves in the bedroom.
Maybe its the striker, maybe its the plastic but I like the old way.
Maybe its the striker, maybe its the plastic but I like the old way.
So you are saying a safety is needed because people make mistakes but those same people will never forget to take the safety off in a time of need? Hmm something is wrong with that argument.
Personally I despise the firearms I own that have safeties. Safeties are a useless "feel good" measure IMO that just make people practice unsafe handling techniques because "the safety is on and the gun can't fire"
Rastoff
US Veteran
Lightfoot4
Member
As a couple of others have noted, I use the safety in case someone else gets my firearm. At the range, I practice like I carry, so I draw and flick the safety off as the gun comes up.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I guess I should answer the OP's question directly:
I use the thumb safety on a 1911 because that's what they come with and that's how I've trained.
If I had a gun with a decocker/safety, it would be used decocked and safety off. That's how they're intended to be used.
The S&W M&P doesn't need a thumb safety. So, I wouldn't worry about it being on or off. My grip would ensure it's off when needed so it's not an issue.
I use the thumb safety on a 1911 because that's what they come with and that's how I've trained.
If I had a gun with a decocker/safety, it would be used decocked and safety off. That's how they're intended to be used.
The S&W M&P doesn't need a thumb safety. So, I wouldn't worry about it being on or off. My grip would ensure it's off when needed so it's not an issue.
I've posted this before but my first handgun was a Third Gen Model 915. When it came to handguns I was green. I knew nothing. I'm not sure Glocks existed but if they did I thought they were invisible to X-rays.
At the time I thought the proper way to carry a handgun was in a holster with the retention strap between the hammer and firing pin because that's what I saw people doing with their 1911s.
Long story short, I carried my 915 cocked with no safety for several months until someone explained to me that the gun was meant to be carried decocked (I didn't even know that was a thing) and I started carrying it that way.
My point is that in all that time the gun never discharged on its own or even due to any negligent action on my part. Not on holstering not on the draw. I think this is because if the Army taught me nothing else they beat DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO SHOOT.
I've carried TDAs (third gens/CZs) from 95 to 14 with no NDs and striker fired since without incident. I really think it's much ado about nothing
At the time I thought the proper way to carry a handgun was in a holster with the retention strap between the hammer and firing pin because that's what I saw people doing with their 1911s.
Long story short, I carried my 915 cocked with no safety for several months until someone explained to me that the gun was meant to be carried decocked (I didn't even know that was a thing) and I started carrying it that way.
My point is that in all that time the gun never discharged on its own or even due to any negligent action on my part. Not on holstering not on the draw. I think this is because if the Army taught me nothing else they beat DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO SHOOT.
I've carried TDAs (third gens/CZs) from 95 to 14 with no NDs and striker fired since without incident. I really think it's much ado about nothing
tonyb64
Member
I am new to the M&P. I'm picking up a M&P 9 2.0 , no thumb safety on Monday. Though I did own a Bodyguard .380 before it was in the M&P family which I sold a few years back. I have always prefered no safety for every day carry, and have always carried Glocks. However as a night stand gun I keep a Beretta 92. I figure if I get roused from sleep at night and I have to reach for my firearm half asleep I wan't to reduce the chance of an accidental discharge.
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kbm6893
SWCA Member
This dumb argument goes round and round. And there are always the chairborne rangers who have to chime in with the "safeties will get you killed" and "get some training". They don't know that they might be making those dumb comments to guys with half a century of gun handling.
This same topic came up on a different forum a few years ago. Same super confident pistolero says "safeties will get you killed. Take a class, people". Such an arrogance about him. So with a few questions, this guy, who was "trained by a former Marine", admitted to carrying a Beretta PX4 with hammer back, and safety OFF. Says his "teacher" says it is no different than a Glock.
Show me ONE case where a safety got somebody killed. I'll show you 50 where it saved somebody.
And comparing a Glock to a DA revolver just shows your ignorance. 5 pound striker vs 9 pound hammer? Please! Ever wonder why the term "Glock Leg"
Was invented? Before Glock graced the world with its presence, millions
Of people Carrie semi autos with safeties. How ever did they survive?
This same topic came up on a different forum a few years ago. Same super confident pistolero says "safeties will get you killed. Take a class, people". Such an arrogance about him. So with a few questions, this guy, who was "trained by a former Marine", admitted to carrying a Beretta PX4 with hammer back, and safety OFF. Says his "teacher" says it is no different than a Glock.
Show me ONE case where a safety got somebody killed. I'll show you 50 where it saved somebody.
And comparing a Glock to a DA revolver just shows your ignorance. 5 pound striker vs 9 pound hammer? Please! Ever wonder why the term "Glock Leg"
Was invented? Before Glock graced the world with its presence, millions
Of people Carrie semi autos with safeties. How ever did they survive?
tonyb64
Member
Chairborne Ranger. Funny.
Just out of curiosity, how much Force on Force did you do in those 50 years. How many ECQ evos? I've seen folks miss safeties in training, so have a lot of other instructors. If it happens in training simulations, I have to assume it can happen in an actual defense scenario.
How many people were killed because they fumbled with a safety? I don't know, because they are dead, so it's kind of hard to ask them. Civilian stats are scarce in numbers and details about such things.
You state you can produce 50 cases where a manual safety saved someone. Produce them, I would like to see them. Just the ones involving armed civilians though, since I'm pretty sure that is what we are discussing.
With regards to LEO's, I actually see some advantages to a manual safety even though I think the cons still outweigh the pros, but I don't believe police work is what we are talking about here and even so, why are so many PD's now issuing guns sans safeties? Have they possibly learned something in the past 50 years? The FBI even mandated their new sidearm not have one.
I think comparing a Glock equipped with an NY trigger to a revolver is perfectly valid. Trigger pull weight is pretty much equivalent.
kbm6893
SWCA Member
I don't have 50 years. Little over 25. I said some people here who regularly carry with a safety have 50 years.
Produce 50 cases? Just google them. Two years ago, 2 year old kills
Mother when he got hold of her Shield. Everybody who failed to
Disengage a safety is dead? Really? Produce those stats, then.
NY trigger on a Glock is not the same as a revolver.
So those guys playing gun games under no life or
Death stress forget to take a safety off? So they're not perfect? Makes you
Wonder if they should be handling a gun at all? Do you
Forget to press the brake pedal before you shift into gear?
I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, forgot to disengage the safety in a life or death situation. But way more have been saved.
And I could post a dozen, right off the top of my head. But your just say "but they violated the other rules of safety", which is true. Because they made a mistake. Because they're human. And manual safeties make those less likely to result in injury or death.
And I'm sorry, but your terminology just proves my point. Force on Force? ECG Evos? You ever pull a weapon in a real self defense scenario? Who talks like that?
Why does the FBI and cops use Glocks? Because they're cheap and they generally work. Why did the US Army force Sig to put a manual safety on the new 320?
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Arc Angel
Member
Naturally I beg to differ. I don't think there's anything wrong with, 'the argument'; I think there's something wrong with your comprehension and interpretation of what I said.
(But, hey, this is the internet: A place where the loudest, the most adamant, the most strident, or the most often repeated opinion is frequently misconstrued as being correct.)
kbm6893
SWCA Member
I always hear the "do you need a safety on a revolver? Then why do you need one on a semi auto? It's the same thing". They're not the same thing. Totally different operating systems. No revolvers other than some obscure Russian WW II one ever came with a safety. But before Glock came along, the vast majority of semi autos had them. MILLIONS of us people carried them with no problems. We don't hear about them saving lives very often, because if they saved a life or prevented an AD/ND, there's nothing to report. The shooter goes "whew. That was stupid of me" and hopefully doesn't make the same mistake.
On a striker, I insist on them. Light trigger and no hammer to rest my thumb on as I holster? No thanks. They're most beneficial when reholstering, especially under stress. Plaxicos o Burris wouldn't have put a hole in his
Leg if he had a Ruger SR9 with a safety on instead of a Glock without one
Yes, he should have had a proper holster. But he didn't. Because he's human.
99% of gun handling is routine and not life threatening. So I am more concerned with a brain fart than using it in life or death. But if you practice with your weapon, it becomes automatic. 10 minutes a night drawing and flicking safety off is not such a commitment. As for guys at gun games screwing up, many people at those are inexperienced. IDPA has become very popular.
Shooting 25 years. Never forgot to take safety off. Just like i never forgot to
Step on the brake before shifting into gear.
On a striker, I insist on them. Light trigger and no hammer to rest my thumb on as I holster? No thanks. They're most beneficial when reholstering, especially under stress. Plaxicos o Burris wouldn't have put a hole in his
Leg if he had a Ruger SR9 with a safety on instead of a Glock without one
Yes, he should have had a proper holster. But he didn't. Because he's human.
99% of gun handling is routine and not life threatening. So I am more concerned with a brain fart than using it in life or death. But if you practice with your weapon, it becomes automatic. 10 minutes a night drawing and flicking safety off is not such a commitment. As for guys at gun games screwing up, many people at those are inexperienced. IDPA has become very popular.
Shooting 25 years. Never forgot to take safety off. Just like i never forgot to
Step on the brake before shifting into gear.
i just shot myself - Google Search
I can't hot link to the video about because there's some language in it.
The guy in the video managed to shoot himself with a Kimber 1911 (2 external safeties). I guess this is a case of Kimber leg?
Why do these threads always become opinion measuring contests with the "bl
ded protagonists" with the smallest opinions being the most willing the measure them?
I'm not stupid if I choose to carry a handgun without a safety any more than I'm retarded if I choose to open carry. The people in this thread who choose not to use a firearm with a safety seem to have made their case without resorting to name calling.
I have had training and I really have had to use a gun in self defense and I don't have any extra holes in me and neither does the bad guy or the bear although the squirrel came pretty close.
I don't believe that anyone has never, not one time ever forgot to sweep the safety off, I don't buy it.
Bottom line. It's your life, you make the choices, you live with the consequences
I can't hot link to the video about because there's some language in it.
The guy in the video managed to shoot himself with a Kimber 1911 (2 external safeties). I guess this is a case of Kimber leg?
Why do these threads always become opinion measuring contests with the "bl
ded protagonists" with the smallest opinions being the most willing the measure them? I'm not stupid if I choose to carry a handgun without a safety any more than I'm retarded if I choose to open carry. The people in this thread who choose not to use a firearm with a safety seem to have made their case without resorting to name calling.
I have had training and I really have had to use a gun in self defense and I don't have any extra holes in me and neither does the bad guy or the bear although the squirrel came pretty close.
I don't believe that anyone has never, not one time ever forgot to sweep the safety off, I don't buy it.
Bottom line. It's your life, you make the choices, you live with the consequences
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digiroc
Member
I grew up in the 1911 world which required a safety to be carried "cocked and locked" so for many years I had the muscle memory developed that presenting the firearm meant deactivating the safety.
I also carried a snubby as backup and that had no such thing. Now since my appreciation for decocker equipped 3rd gen Smiths I carry with the safety off, ready for a draw and fire without the need to sweep off the safety up to activate the pistol. The difference between sweeping the 1911 "down" and flicking the safety "up" on a S&W is significant and I don't want decades of 1911 deactivation of the safety to come back inadvertently in a high stress situation.
Now I favor DAO pistols to give me revolver-like operation. The biggest case I can make about a safety equipped firearm is the number of times myself and others have experienced the "flinch test" of forgetting to disengage the safety on the range. It is something I don't want to experience in a self defense situation.
digiroc
I also carried a snubby as backup and that had no such thing. Now since my appreciation for decocker equipped 3rd gen Smiths I carry with the safety off, ready for a draw and fire without the need to sweep off the safety up to activate the pistol. The difference between sweeping the 1911 "down" and flicking the safety "up" on a S&W is significant and I don't want decades of 1911 deactivation of the safety to come back inadvertently in a high stress situation.
Now I favor DAO pistols to give me revolver-like operation. The biggest case I can make about a safety equipped firearm is the number of times myself and others have experienced the "flinch test" of forgetting to disengage the safety on the range. It is something I don't want to experience in a self defense situation.
digiroc
OP
amcline82
Member
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Thanks for all the responses. I have my opinion on them but I am not going to get mad unlike some people (Arc Angel) for not share the same one. I had no intention on belittle anyone just want to see the responses.
It's all about choices you choose a Ruger instead of a Smith, you choose a shield without a safety its all up to you and no one has the right to tell you otherwise.
Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
It's all about choices you choose a Ruger instead of a Smith, you choose a shield without a safety its all up to you and no one has the right to tell you otherwise.
Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
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Good summation
Colonel
Member
When CCW'ing a striker fire pistol, I prefer a thumb safety to ensure my safety, that I don't have an AD or a ND, especially in an IWB holster. OUCH that would hurt!
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