I have a M&P 2.0 Pro custom C.O.R.E with a 5" 9mm barrel which I really like. I recently took the gun to a L.E. class where as part of the training we staged a double feed then under time we cleared and fired the gun. The drill is drop the magazine, rack the slide to clear the chamber, insert mag, chamber a round and then fire as needed. This particular gun behaved differently than I am use to. With a round in the chamber the extractor would not slide over the rim. I tried several times and even released the slide from slide stop but it would not catch the rim to remove it. I eventually used a pocket knife to clear the round from the barrel. I was using Speer lawman ammo but I also tried it with other brands with the same results.
I know this is a bit hard on exteriors and don't practice this a lot but a gun should be able to perform this drill as double feeds can happen. Other guns I have perform this just fine.
Does my M&P have a problem? Is mine the only one with this oddity? I have a return authorization for it but if this is normal for them I may have to look to the aftermarket to solve the problem. Sorry for the long first post and thank you in advance for your input.

How do you stage double feed?
Do you chamber the round from magazine, or manually insert it into the chamber?

With a double-feed, you are almost NEVER able to 'drop' the mag as
Step One. You must lock-open the slide FIRST, then you normally have to RIP the mag free of the pistol. As you are yanking it free of the grip, you're likely to drop it or toss it. Probably the number one reason for carrying a spare mag.

What is a double feed?
Do you have a live round in the chamber and another one pushing against it from the magazine?
I have seen a lot of failures to extract CALLED a double feed with a fired case still in the chamber and a fresh round coming up against it.

This is absolutely correct.

However there is an underlying reason that the OP's pistol extractor is not grabbing the chambered round. It could be a weak extractor spring that is allowing the extractor to slip off. Although you would normally see fired cases being left in the chamber also. It could be an over strength extractor spring that is not allowing the extractor to SNAP over the rim of the chambered round. Normally the rim of each new round SLIPS under the extractor as the round presents itself in to alignment with the chamber. It could be an improperly fit extractor that is not able to move enough to SNAP over the chambered round. Or it could be operator error in not executing the clearance technique properly by not allowing the slide to run forward under full recoil spring power to get the slide to get the extractor to SNAP over the chambered round.
I just set up the double feed drill (with dummy rounds) in all 3 of my 9mm M&Ps and had no problems with the extractor SNAPPING over the chambered round or extracting the chambered round when executing the drill properly.
Question for the OP, did you have the class instructor/s attempt the drill with your pistol and did they experience the same issue?
If yes then there could be an underlying issue with your pistol. If they did not experience the issue, there is a distinct possibility that more practice of the correct technique might resolve the issue. The double feed IS one of the more vexing malfunctions problems to recognize and then try to clear.

Sorry I was trying to keep the post succinct. I over simplified the process of clearing a double feed in order to shorten a long post. Yes you do need to lock back the slide and then strip, not just release the mag. This was a class for instructors, every one there was a L.E. Instructor including the one looking over my shoulder. I know how most guns handle this situation but am new to this particular gun. After the normal drill failed I attempted to put considerable finger pressure on the rear of the extractor to reduce spring tension and this also did not work. If the slide was dropped it would leave a tapered gouge on the bottom of the rim but would not go over it and catch the rim. I have performed this drill many times and instructed this to many students. I even do this with 1911s (other then to confirm it will work if ever needed I don't recommenced this as it is very hard on extractors which should be checked for both broken tip and altered tension afterwards and before being carried. The U.S. law enforcement world is dominated by Glock which most instructors teach too so outside of them it does change slightly.

A double feed can be set up by dropping a round in the chamber and then a second round is striped by the slide from the magazine.
Thank you to the last poster for answering my question. It does sound like the gun needs to go back. Sorry for being long winded.

Lock slide back before removing mag.

Dirty/tight chamber? An unfired round should drop out of the vertical chamber, slide locked back. If you have to pry an unfired round out of the chamber (better method is to use a small wooden dowel from the muzzle—keeping hands clear), you have a chamber problem. Cartridge overall length may be too long, although this should not be an issue with different rounds of factory ammo.

1. Regarding the OP's problem, no idea. My MP's extractor snaps over and extracts no problem

2. Those posting that you MUST lock the slide back before removing the mag, it's gun dependent. In general metal framed guns, and I have experience with Smith 3rd gen, Beretta and 1911s, you DO have to lock the slide back. On Glocks there is enough frame flex that you can rip the mag out against spring pressure.

I don't have any experience with other plastic frame guns so anyone who does is free to chime in.

Depending upon how many rounds you have through the gun, there might be some slight interference with the extractor. I can't move the extractor with my thumb on the example at hand.

Strip the slide off, and with a piece of brass or aluminum, gently pry the extractor claw outwards several times and see if that helps. If not, a call to S&W for a return ticket is indicated.

So I sent the pistol off to customer service and just got it back today. C.S. said they replaced the extractor. My findings are the same as before, they fixed nothing.


What do I do next? Is any reps from Smith & Wesson here that are the go to guy for fixing things like this? How about other Smiths that do great work.

This.

What most people call a "double feed" is really an extraction failure. This could have several causes.

A true double feed is a magazine failure, where the feed lips allow two rounds out of the magazine. I've had this on AR 20 round magazines. Changing magazines fixes the problem.

uspsanewbie,
Let's go over your initial problem again:
What happens with the slide once you try to close it with round in the chamber? Does it go fully into battery, or stays out of battery?

The slide stops out of battery. If I drop the slide a couple of times the extractor will take a chunk out of the case but will not snap over the rim and extract the case when the slide is pulled back. This is slightly better than before. Before it would take a notch out of the case and go into battery but the extractor would not grab the rim.

I would check the extractor spring then.
It my happens that your extractor is sitting tight without any room to move.
Please disassemble the pistol, remove barrel from the slide and try to move the extractor's claw towards the outside. You should see small, but clear movement - even using your finger. You can also slide the dummy round in there to see the same result.

The extractor does move but appears to not have sufficient range of movement to do what it needs to. So i think my next step would be to remove the extractor and spring, then put the extractor back in without the spring and see if it is the spring limiting the range of motion, or the extractor. Since this is the internet I feel I need to say, I know the gun will not function without the spring. This is a test to isolate the problem not a solution to the problem. Thoughts on this?

Good idea. Somehow you have to isolate the problem and checking the extractor movement without the spring is a good path.

I just double checked mine. I can flex the extractor by pressing on the back, meaning back towards the rear sight, part of the extractor.

Not much, less then a 1/16, but I can flex it. Hope this helps.

I’ve always questioned the wisdom of staging a double feed drill. It comes very close to falling into the category of destructive testing - in some designs far more than others.

Most semi auto pistols use extractors that are not designed to snap over the cartridge rim. Most *can* but it pushes them outside their normal design parameters and induces unnecessary stress and fatigue on the part. In other words, staging a double feed increases the potential for a particular pistol to *have* an actual double feed. Worse, when that double feed occurs it’s because the extractor is failing and is no longer reliably extracting the cartridge.

—-

Over the last 35 plus years shooting pistols of various types and shooting well over a quarter million rounds, I have had exactly one double feed. That was in a well used and abused pistol with a modified extractor.

In other words, unless you abuse the extractor, there’s no need to focus on double feed drills. And ironically if you are staging double feed drills, you are abusing the extractor and you are creating the need to practice clearing double feeds.

Obviously, the other way the extractor gets abused is deciding to load your pistol “+1” by dropping a round in the chamber rather than feeding it from the magazine and then topping off the magazine. If you do that stop doing that.

——-

My suspicion is that the whole issue of staging double feeds comes from firearms instructors and trainers who want to show off their prowess in clearing another type of malfunction and have something else to teach - even though said malfunction is virtually unheard of in a properly designed and maintained pistol using quality ammunition.

Yeah. This is want should be expected. Just a little flex movement.

I agree with that statement.
However it a good practice to know how to clear double feed IN OWN firearm. So one or two occurrences don't hurt extractor. If it goes bad after one of two rides over the rim - that's the time to invest in better manufacturer.
Anyway - better check, if you can clear double feed on your tool, than find it not working when needed.

I've always understood that most semi-auto pistols will not allow the extractor to snap over the case rim of a round dropped in the chamber. I've always considered them as a controlled feed where the extractor groove is engaged immediately as the round comes out of the mag. I agree with BB57 that this procedure is a solution looking for a non-existent problem.

__________________
Release the Kraken

What is the spring needed for then?

I'm going to disagree. I've seen both failure to extract double feeds and true double feeds where the magazine releases two rounds.

It does happen and anyone who is serious about self defense shooting needs to practice every now and then.

I’m going to suggest you focus on better quality pistols and/or magazines if you are “serious about self defense”.

Seriously.

Would you accept a self defense load that does not feed with virtually 100% reliability in your personal self defense weapon? I won’t.

I put at least 200 rounds of my intended self defense load through my self defense handgun spread evenly between my primary and backup magazines with zero failures before I feel comfortable using it. I backstop that with regular expenditure of my carry rounds so over time I have several hundred rounds down range with no failures.

If I *have* a failure, I find out *why* and address the failure.
To eliminate the failure rather than living with a known failure mode that will require immediate action when an otherwise preventable jam occurs.

Why? Despite what all those tacti-cool instructors push, the FBI data is very clear that 75% of all agent involved shoots were over in 3 shots or less fired at 3 yards or less in 3 seconds or less. In other words in 3/4 of the shoots agents were involved in, there simply wasn’t time to deal with a malfunction. It really is an example of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Now… that said:

1. I practice tap-rack-bang drills as the primary immediate action drill if something goes wrong, just on general principle; and

2. I practice dropping the magazine and clearing the weapon as the next up immediate action if tap-rack-bang fails, again on general principle.

As for double feed drills, #2 covers the extremely unlikely occurrence of a double feed when using quality ammo in a quality magazine in a properly maintained quality pistol - and it covers that contingency *without* abusing the extractor in the pistol by staging a double feed.

In the real world guns are mechanical devices that DO from time to time have failures, be they mechanical or operator induced.

My experience is with a large law enforcement department's issued duties weapons or authorized private purchase weapons.

For the most part Beretta 92s or Beretta Compacts, 2nd and 3rd Gen Smith Autos, Glocks and most recently Smith MPs.

Magazines are either factory or for the older Smiths and Berettas Mecgar.

Almost all of these weapons will have 2 thousand rounds through them if a department gun, or in some cases be brand new if a private gun.

SO in other words no junk guns, no junk magazines.

ADD as for the FBI numbers, remember those are averages. Both North Hollywood and San Bernardino happened.

Fair question. IMHO the spring is there to cope with subtle variations in ammo diameter and extractor groove shape between manufacturers .

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Release the Kraken

I did not intend for this to become a debate. My take is that the rapid clearing of a foreseeable malfunction, even if it be a rare one, should be performed to confirm the pistol works as it should and the operator knows what to do. In the case of my firearm, which is a reputable brand and model, it failed. I do appreciate the concern and have acknowledged it is hard on the gun. Treat your guns how you choose to. I have guns I would not use in this way, they are not ones I wear on my hip on or off duty. I do appreciate your information on this and I think I have it resolved.

Have you found the problem then? We stopped at this moment:

You are trying to fix a false problem created by the wild imagination of your so-called "trainer".

You are not helping.

Even the extractor is not designed to work this way, it MUST be able to ride over the rim to clear malfunction.
"Muzzle loading rod" times are already gone.