I was told by a co-worker that shooting ammo with steel casings with an AR rifle (such as wolf ammo, etc) would damage the extractor over time. I was not able to find any documented info corroborating this. Does anybody know if this is true and why?

Steel cases are harder than brass cases, resulting in more wear on the weapon. As for the extractor specifically, it's going to have to snap over the case rim every round. Steel on steel is not so nice for the extractor compared to steel on brass. I do not shoot anything with steel cases in my guns.

Makes sense. I didn't have the knowledge to participate in that argument before. Thanks for the help. I reload my own so I never had the need to use steel ammo, but now I'm sure I never want to try it

Yeah, it's one of those things. You would have to shoot hundreds or maybe thousands of steel cased rounds to put any appreciable wear on the rifle. Especially with milspec type carbines with chrome lined chambers and such. But I figure, why do it at all? I handload the match grade stuff, and brass cased 55gr for plinking is plenty cheap and available again.

I also notice that steel ammo comes in two types of primers. Any negatives or preferences on which type to buy?

I dont shoot any steel cased ammo but I think Im going to start. Heck it only takes maybe 3 min to change a $10-$20 extractor plus you could keep a spare in your range bag or under your grip plug just in case. To me its not about the extractor but how dirty I here that stuff to be.

There is nothing wrong with shooting steel case ammo. It's not like the "Steel" is tungsten. It's actually pretty soft. The steel in the extractor/bolt is harder than the steel case on the ammo. Laws of physics says the harder material will wear down the softer material.

But throw all the logic aside. There are 2 things that need to be considered.

1) Not all guns like all ammo. I have a pistol that WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE shoot Corbon ammo. Won't even fit right. That doesn't mean corbon sucks. Just for my gun. So, if your AR will shoot steel case ammo, go for it. If it won't, then don't go for it.

2) MOST IMPORTANT!!! Steel case ammo, like Silver Bear, is approximately $4 per box LESS than brass ammo. That means; After shooting 12 boxes of Silver Bear ammo - 240 rounds - ($48 savings); you have saved up enough money to buy a complete replacement bolt with extractor already assembled on it. And if you've done any field stripping to clean the rifle, you know that you can replace an entire bolt, in LESS THAN 60 SECONDS!!!

Now, if you think that the steel case ammo is ONLY going to let your extractor/bolt last for LESS than 240 rounds, then it's not worth using steel case ammo. If you think your extractor/bolt will last MORE than 240 rounds; then it's worth using steel case ammo.

That's simply the "ECONOMIC" factor. The real factor is: Will it work reliably in your gun? (Every gun is different with ALL ammo. NOT JUST Steel case). Is it accurate enough for you? If it works and you like it, use it. Bolts/gas rings are wearable items. Eventually they wear out. Whether it's at 3000 rounds instead of 5000 rounds doesn't really matter. After 240 rounds, you've already saved enough money for the new complete bolt. after 600 rounds, you've saved enough to replace the entire bolt carrier assembly. After 6000 rounds, (When a NORMAL bolt might wear out anyway), you've saved enough money to buy a BRAND NEW COLT H-BAR 5.56/.223 AR-15 Rifle. ($1200 savings).

Come on people; it's basic math here. But again; the most important thing is if your weapon likes the ammo. It's not a "Steel Case" thing. It's a "Does my rifle like it" thing.

Huge +1 Christcorp - very well said. I personally have thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo through my rifle and my extractor has not broken yet....although I think I will probably change it soon (the !*maintenance*! item that it is. This is one of the most ill informed, enduring internet myths going.

Not really unless you plan to reload the brass. However be aware that some foreign berdan primed ammunition is corrosive. Avoid corrosive ammunition.

Shooting steel cased ammo so that you can use your "savings" to replace worn parts doesn't sound like good logic to me. When I see people shooting steel cased ammo on the range I can pretty quickly form an opinion of how they use and care for their firearms.

Not sure I know how to reply to this. If someone was shooting steel ammo, and the savings was used to replace worn parts every couple months, then I would agree with you. But that's not the case. We're talking about saving between $600-$1200 by the time a $50 part needs to be replaced. And that replacement, MOST LIKELY, is a "NORMAL REPLACEMENT". 5000-8000 rounds. In other words, there is NO ONE that can say that their bolt broke prematurely BECAUSE THEY SHOT STEEL CASE AMMO in it.

As for you "Forming an Opinion" on steel case shooting people at the range;..... Sorry, but I can pretty quickly form an opinion of such a person forming an "Uninformed" opinion of others. Not trying to be rude, but your opinion is very prejudice and very uninformed. I have WELL OVER 3000 rounds of steel in one of my AR's, and the other has close to 2000 rounds of steel. At the LOW END: $9 per box non-steel ammo; I've saved about $1000.00. On the normal end; meaning $11 per box of non-steel; I've saved about $1500.00. And I have NOT YET had to replace a $10 extractor or a $50 complete bolt assembly; or a $150 complete bolt carrier assembly. In other words, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's very uninformed. People aren't saving $50 to spend $50. They are saving $600-$1200, and they STILL aren't spending money to replace parts. The "REPLACEMENT PART COST" scenario, is simply to give the Benefit of the Doubt to the "Steel Case Critics". Even if the steel case was to reduce the life of the extractor or bolt, you would save so much more than what it would cost to replace the small part.

But the truth is; no one has shown that steel case is hurting your gun. The steel in the extractor and bolt are stronger than the steel case. The case can't hurt the extractor/bolt. If your gun doesn't like shooting the steel case, then don't shoot it. If you don't want to shoot steel, because you don't want to (For personal reasons), then don't shoot steel. Just don't make up false reasons or promote myths.

I know the services considered aluminum cased ammo (because it would be lighter than brass) and rejected it because the aluminum caused problems when being fired on auto. It doesn't dissapate heat as well as brass and seems it could cause autorunning.

I wonder what effect this might have on full auto applications with steel. Most Eastern bloc weapons have pretty loose chambering compared to an AR *specifically an AK type rifle.

Anybody know? Just curious, I have absolutely no info on it, anecdotal or factual.

Aluminum is also a lot softer than brass. That's why I only shoot aluminum (Blazer) ammo in revolvers. The push rod has no problem getting the spent cases out. A semi-auto "Can" have issues. A "HOT" fully auto weapon would undoubtedly have some issues. Mainly because of the heat.

But steel actually will expand less than the brass, and thus probably wouldn't be a major issue. There are however issues with steel ammo. A mentioned them in a previous post. I don't want anyone to think I am saying that steel ammo: e.g. wolf, silver bear, brown bear, MFS, Herters, Tula, etc... is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It isn't.

NEGATIVES:
1. Tends to use dirtier powder. (Not a big deal most times)
2. Doesn't expand as well as brass, so doesn't seal as well in the chamber. Thus, makes the chamber area dirtier. (Don't run brass after using steel, until you've cleaned the chamber. Brass will most likely start sticking. Continue with steel is fine).
3. Steel case ammo is military surplus quality, and is no where near as accurate as $12-$25 traditional ammo. (Most times).
4. Can't reload steel. But at <$4 a box, you can't reload at that price either.
5. Not all weapons shoot it reliably. (Then again, I have name brand pistols/rifles that are picky with name brand brass ammo)

ADVANTAGE:
1. Bought in bulk, it can be had for <$4 a box.
2. Generally just as reliable as brass ammo. (The ammo, not the rifle)
3. Price averages between 1/2 and 1/3. If only shooting 100 rounds per month; yearly savings would be approximately $240-$360. (If you shoot more or less, calculate accordingly). (I save around $600 per year).

MYTHS/CLARIFICATIONS:
1. The part of the AR15 that most people believe can be harmed by steel case ammo is the extractor.... Possibly the bolt. FACT: The steel that the extractor and bolt are made of, is stronger than the steel the cases are made of. The case will be harmed before the extractor/bolt will.
2. An average AR-15 Bolt is a wearable item, and has an operational life span of approximately 5000-8000 rounds. At shooting 100 rounds a month; that's approximately 4-7 years. EVEN WITH BRASS AMMO!!!
3. Worst case scenario; if steel case ammo COULD harm the extractor and/or bolt, and reduce the life span by 1/2; then you would reduce the time from to get a new extractor/bolt to approximately 2-3 years.
4. At the same 100 rounds a month, at the end of the 3 years when you "Hypothetically" would need to replace the bolt "EARLY", you would have saved approximately $750-$1000 by the time you needed to replace a $10 extractor, OR a $50 bolt (If you didn't know how to replace the extractor), OR $150 bolt carrier group (If you were lazy and didn't want to remove the bolt from the carrier).

But you know what??? This is a free country, and you are the one who bought the gun. Everyone is free to do whatever. I spent 20+ years in the military, partly for this very reason. Individual freedoms. I personally don't care what people shoot in their guns. I simply don't like NOOB's who are ignorant, to be under a false impression or believing in myths, that simply aren't true. Truth is: Some guns just won't like to feed, extract, eject, or fire steel case ammo. Others will have no problem with it. Some people don't like to clean their guns, and will cause most of the problems. Some people clean their guns, and won't have steel case issues. Some people want American ammo for an American gun. There's a lot of reasons to shoot it or not. My guns; 2 of 3, I haven't shot my newest AR yet. (Got it for christmas); have absolutely no problem shooting steel case ammo. At least not tula, herters, or silver bear. (That's all I've ever really shot). But I have saved between $1000 and $1500 on ammo. I haven't yet had to replace a $10 extractor or $50 bolt. But if I do; I will still have a net profit of $1000+. Maybe I can spend that on more ammo or a really nice optic. To each their own.

What you said makes sense to me except for the aluminum. Actually it is more brittle than brass, not softer and the problem seems to be heat dissapation in auto aplications (full auto that is).

I have fired thousands of rounds of Blazer , alum cased ammo in my XDs without a problem. Thousands through Glocks before that without a hiccup. Not trying to one up but that is something I have lots of experience with. The only two reasons I like brass, Sellier and Bellot specifically, is it is much cleaner shooting and is now as cheap as the blazer or nearly so. I don't reload so that doesn't effect my choices like availability and price does.

My revolver experience is way out of date since the last one I fired was my service, S&W .38 Spec. back in the seventies before Glocks were issued. I don't remember what we carried but think it was enemic, lead ball.

Thanks for so many years of service, it is appreciated.

Gentlemen,

Let's stay focused on the subject and not each other.

As far shooting steel case... Have put thousands of Wolf through my Bushmaster for general plinking at the Club. Zero problems. Saves money.

Steel is fine. there was a report dont and it showed no increased wear. also...when fired brass hardens and is just as hard as the steel.

joe

The AR-15 design was developed by Eugene Stoner and designed to use the full range of military specification ammunition, including steel-cased ammunition!

The US military has a history of mil-specification procurement of alternate cartridge case materials for almost all small arms calibers: .30 M1 Carbine, .30-06, 7.62x51 NATO, 9x19 NATO, .45 ACP, .50 BMG, and in the medium caliber cannons. Steel-cased small arms ammo was used extensively during WWII and the Korea conflict. The US and most of it's NATO allies use brass cased ammunition because it is relatively wealthy. One notable exception is France, who routinely issues and uses 5.56x45 NATO ammunition with steel cases. Their ammunition is considered NATO standard and can be used interchangeably in US weapons.

The former Soviet Union and it's client states designed and built it's small arms for steel-cased ammunition for the simple reason that it is a cheaper material and not subject to strategic materials shortages of copper and zinc. The Soviet Union's small arms designs rely on massive, sturdy extractors and chrome plated chambers to handle the higher extraction forces required by steel cases. Their military mentality kept them on a constant "war footing" and standard useage of steel-cased ammunition was their idea of using what they had to use when it was "for real".

For my own use, the Russian produced 5.56x45 steel cased ammo is plenty good enough for me, and I agree with chriscorps: the economic incentives are good enough reason to use it. My friends and I've fired several tens of thousands of rounds through several AR-15 rifles and have encountered no problems.

It is important to repeat that steel cased ammo, does tend to not seal as well, and allows more blow back into the chamber, depositing carbon, grime, etc... If you don't clean your chamber often enough, you can find yourself with some cases that like to stick inside the chamber. Either the unfired case doesn't want to chamber all the way in, or the fired case doesn't like to extract and eject. Definitely clean the chamber and gun more often after shooting. At the range, I usually take a 45 caliber brush and hit the chamber with it, and a bore snake down the barrel. Usually during a 2 minute break after 100 or so rounds. And I've learned that firing a bunch of steel case ammo, and following up with some brass cased ammo is almost guaranteed to get some sticky cases. Just clean it more often, that's all.

Also; some have concerns about the Lacquer on the steel case. Any NEW produced ammo is most likely polymer, and not lacquer. They don't really use lacquer any more. Not that you couldn't find some old stock ammo from someone. But if you wanted to play it "extra safe" because of people believing lacquer or polymer can melt and clog the chamber, (Isn't true, but some believe it), you can simply get "ZINC" coated steel case ammo. It's shiny. Just like nickle plated type ammo. Zinc coated is used in "Silver Bear", "MFS", and a few others. Then you don't even have to worry about the whole lacquer/polymer issue at all. It won't even exist.

I've learned that each weapon and each type of ammo is different. Maybe your particular AR doesn't do well with Brown Bear or Tula ammo. That doesn't mean it won't shoot steel case at all. It might work fine with Silver Bear and MFS. Even my high end guns can be picky with ammo. My Walther CAN NOT SHOOT Corbon ammo. It won't even fit in the chamber. That doesn't me Walther sucks or that Corbon sucks. Just that these two don't like each other. Anyway; shoot steel that your gun likes; clean often; save a lot of money; buy another gun!!!!

Hi All!

I'm new to this forum, but I'm an active member on a many other AR15/Gun related forums.

I just wanted to say that christcorp is 100% correct in everything he has said (Except I don't know where he's finding steel cased .223 for $4/box???).

I reload my .223 ammo for about $0.19/round, I definitly can't find Silver Bear or Golden Bear ammo for less then that!

ALOT of the problems people have had with steel cased ammo in the AR platform is/was caused from lacquered and polymer coated steel cases. I don't know ANYONE whom has had ANY problems shooting Silver bear (Nickel plated steel case) or Golden Bear (Brass plated steel case).

Wolf has had known production problems with their ammo in the past which is likely the cause of many of the problems/reports with steel cased ammo.

*I* personally will NEVER run wolf ammo in my AR, but I have NO problem running any of the Bear branded ammo.

That said, I don't shoot ANY lacquered or polymer coated ammo in my AR just because IF you were going to have problems, it would most likely be with a lacquered or polymer coated round.

I know many guys that have NEVER shot a brass cased round in their AR and have NEVER had a single problem.

I shoot mostly brass cased ammo simpily because I reload most of what i shoot. From time to time when I can get silverbear ammo for near what it costs me to reload, i'll scoop it up and shoot that till it's gone as it saves me alot of time spent reloading .223.

That said, My AK-74 shoots nothing but lacquered steel cased ammo, it's currosive to which sucks but that's all that's really availble for it right now.

It's also note worthy to mention that it is nice to not have to spend 1/2 my range time running around picking up my brass when I'm shooting steel cased ammo.

I've never used anything but Brass cased ammo in my pistol.

-Masta

I too am able to reload for $0.19 a round for .223. Now I never have to spend time chasing brass because I have a brass catcher for my AR, definitely worth looking into!

But onto the subject at hand, my AR-15 did not like how dirty steel cased ammo was and once I started to reload, I use a high quality clean burning powder, I have the round uniquely tuned for my AR and I've never had a problem since, it shoots like a dream!

There are a few place....but this is one of my faves: SGAmmo.com | Family Owned and Operated, Stillwater Oklahoma

The Tula there is $200 per 1k....or $4 a box. Ammunition To Go : Your one stop for all of your ammunition needs! - Brown Bear, same deal $200 per 1k, $4 a box. Best to buy this stuff in bulk.

I have a link on my other computer. Tonight I'll post it. It's like a calculator. Put in the caliber, and it finds all the online prices. But for what it's worth, a simple check at "CheaperThanDirt" has Tula steel .223 ammo for $3.59 a box. (In stock). Actually a little cheaper if you buy in bulk. I saw at walmart yesterday, TulAmmo (Same company at Tula), .223 for $4.76 a box... at Walmart. It is easy to find .223 ammo for the $3.50-$4.00 per box. Even with shipping, it can be found for the $4 price range.

Cheaper Than Dirt - America's Ultimate Shooting Sports Discounter

Christcorp again you are on the money....with the exception of the concern about the lacquer coated stuff.

The 'lacquer' (at least, what looks like lacquer, it probably is some crazy other substance) is extremely hard wearing. You can hold a blowtorch on it and it will NOT melt. I have done this myself, just to see.

The original 'lacquer melting' thing came about when Brown Bear, Wolf etc used to seal the necks with that red sealant (that Bear still sometimes use on the primers). It was this sealant that would melt and make a mess in the chamber, NOT the 'lacquer'. For a couple of years now, the manufacturers have stopped putting sealant on the necks and this problem has largely gone away, but the rumors persist. I believe that the reason the polymer case was introduced was an attempt by the manufacturers to get away from this, rather than the polymer being in any way superior to the 'lacquer'. FWIW, I much prefer the Bear ammo than Wolf - more accurate, more consistent, you don't hear of QC issues. It is good stuff, lacquer case or not.

The reason why this ammo can be 'sticky', you have 100% hit on - the steel does not expand as well as brass to fill the chamber when fired; consequently there is a minute gap left, which fills with carbon. Being as the Russian stuff runs dirty, this accelerates the issue even more. As you rightly state, the biggest potential problem can come if you fire a bunch of steel cased, then switch to brass - the brass case then expands on this carbon build up, which can lead to a stuck case. So the moral of the story is - if you have a range session with steel cased ammo, give your chamber a good scrub before switching to brass.

As an aside on this topic, I want to go on record here as a person who has actually fired around 9000 rounds of steel cased ammo through my M&P15T. I'm not going off rumor; this is my personal experience and I've never had a problem at all. Thousands more Brown Bear through my Glock, and Cetme 308. But I do really take cleaning and maintenance seriously. My extractor has not broke, or shows any excessive sign of wear - but I am going to replace it anyway, as a conscientious person who believes in running my rifle hard - and maintaining it hard. And when my barrel wears out, I'll replace that too.

Some people seem to think their rifles are made of glass, and will be damaged by the least little thing. They are infact extremely hard wearing and designed to be dragged around a battlefield and shot a lot. But they do need proper maintenance to keep them running, and parts do wear out - however they wear out irregardless of whether shooting steel cased ammo or brass.

I can help you out with there...there are two places I use:

gun-deals.com - User-Submitted Gun & Ammunition Deals

Ammo For Sale : Cheap Ammo : Find Ammunition at AmmoSeek.com

Those are pretty good dan. Thanks. Here's the one I normally use.

AmmoEngine: .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, Instock For Sale Premium & Discount Ammunition, Ammo Deals

Thanks for that one too! I'll add it to my bookmarks.

That's another aspect with steel cased ammo.

One problem/misunderstanding is that every time someone says "Steel Cased Ammo" most automatically assume that means "Wolf".

Wolf ammo is pretty dirty stuff and as I mentioned above, they have had plenty of production issues in the past. Some guns like wolf ammo, others dont.

The Bear ammo (Silver Bear, Golden Bear, Brown Bear) is actually fairly clean, It's definitly dirtier then my reloaded ammo, but it's alot cleaner then WOLF. I don't know about other brand's of steel cased ammo as I haven't ever used any of the other brand(s).

-Masta

Yeah, I guess I was more refering to Silver Bear as you had mentioned Silver Bear as one of the rounds you mostly shoot.

I don't shoot the lacquer or polymer coated stuff in my AR (Just my thing). I only shoot the 5.45x39 lacquer stuff in my AK-74.

If I could find Silver Bear or Golden Bear or equivalent for $0.24/round or less I would shoot it all day long rather then spending the time to reload .223.

*Edit: Just found This, so I'll probably be ordering a bunch of that. For $0.20/round, it's not worth the time it takes to reload .223. But when .223 is over $0.30/round, then it's worth it to just reload it.


-Masta

Silver Bear .223 Remington 55 - Grain Hp Ammo, Rifle Ammunition, Silver Bear at Sportsman's Guide

Silver Bear
$114.92 for 500 rounds. That's $4.60 per box of 20. or $0.23 per round.

MFS Ammunition 223 Remington 55 Grain Full Metal Jacket Zinc Plated Steel Case Case of 1000 (50 Boxes of 20)

MFS (It's also zinc plated)
$219.95 for 1000 rounds. That's $4.40 per box of 20. or $0.22 per round.

EDIT: I was going to list a bunch more, but you're starting to find it. Good luck.
P.S. I noticed the Cheaperthandirt link you show is on Backorder. For a few pennies more, you could look at the MFS and other silverbear link. I like the MFS. It's my favorite.

Awesome, thanks for the links!

Yeah I noticed it was on back order too, but as long as they honor the price I backorder it at, I don't mind waiting. I have several thousand commercial rounds as well as enough components to make several thousand more to hold me off till the back order gets filled!

I've never seen the MFS stuff anywhere before, I might give it a try, how does it compare the silver bear? I like the bear ammo because it's clean-enough burning.

-Masta

I buy the MFS locally at Sportsmanswarehouse. Normal price is about $6.50, but it goes on sale for about $5.25. Considering shipping, it's about a wash with ordering it. It looks just like silver bear. I believe it shoots cleaner. Pretty accurate. "Then again, I'm not picky". I practice with these guns to shoot people within 100 yards. Not going for competition.

P.S. On the price I buy at Sportsmanswarehouse for; it's a little more expensive, because I usually get the Soft Points instead of FMJ. FMJ is around $5.99 normally, and around $4.90 on sale. I like the soft point for shooting prairie dogs, coyotes, etc... But silver bear is just as good. Most of my FMJ shooting is with silver bear.

Interesting; I'd not heard of MFS before. If it stays at the "sale" price, I will try some on next months ammo buy and shoot for accuracy against Brown Bear at 200 yards and see how it goes.