I am wanting to get a 223 scope with BDC for my M&P 15. I see some dedicated 20 MOA mounts for scopes to assist in having enough elevation adjustment, as well as 20 MOA risers. My question is, is this really necessary?

If it is, what is better, a dedicated mount, or what ever mount of my choice and a 20 MOA riser?

I'm sure I am going to need a riser which ever way I go, I was considering going with the AR Stoner 1 one piece mount, American made, on sale at Midway. Little to no bad reviews.

Another I was considering for the 20 MOA was the M223 from Nikon, gets great reviews on Amazon, mixed reviews on Midway.

I was planning to just buy the Nikon 223 scope, but a friend said he get the Bushnell scopes at cost, told me to look up their elite scopes and let him know what he wants, so I'm going to check those out as well.

I've never seen the need for a 20moa on any .223/5.56, they're more for long range (1000m) guns.
All the moa does is give you extra 20moa "come ups" for extended ranges.

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Yes, I knew it was for elevation, long range. Just curious about the need. I didn't see the need for it, considering it wouldn't be needed for the 100 yrd range, and with the 223 scopes with BDC, its sighted in at 100 yrds, and you used the BDC for distances out to 600 yrds. If something is out that far, I'm not going to see it anyways!

223 is a new caliber for me and am just checking things out so I don't buy something I need to replace later. Except ammo...

I put a Nikon M223 on my Sport with the Nikon mount and the instellation works well. I don't need the extra 20moa, because all my shooting is at 300m or less. There is more than enough elevation in the scope to meet my needs. It depends on the scope and how much total internal elevation adjustment it has. I've had scopes in the past that ran out of adjustment at 400m for some loads.

If you don't need the extra elevation, ignore it. In this case, it doesn't affect things one way or another.

I chose the Nikon for three reasons:
1) Scope and mount were much less than $500, which was the limit I had set for glass and mounts.
2) I like the BDC reticle.
3) The Nikon Spot on web site is excellent, The sight adjustments I get from it actually match what happens at the range.

Good post and advice. Unless you want a quick release mount, the M223 Nikon mount is a great choice for the M223 scopes. The added elevation ability won't hurt anything and is there for you if you switch to a longer range scope.

Nikon M223 1-4X20 w/ M223 mount and Troy flip ups.

Actually, the 20MOA mount is used so that when the gun is sighted in at long range, the scope windage and elevation adjustments are near the center of their range of motion, left/right and up and down. The reason for this is more for windage oddly enough. As the scope gets near its extremes in elevation adjustment (up or down) it impacts how much windage adjustment is available. The reason in non-intuitive, but it's because the scope tube and the reticle tube inside it are both round. As the reticle tube nears the top/bottom of the scope tube its right and left limits are severely reduced.

In long range shooting, especially with rounds that don't resist wind drift well (such as 223 ammo with bullets lighter than 70 grains) having enough windage adjustment is critical. If you are shooting only out to 600 this won't be a problem, but from 800 out it will be unless you're shooting some really high BC 223 bullets.

Keith

I have the M223 scope, but I don't like the M-223 mount, so i use a Burris PEPR mount. Two thumb screws instead of three, and it's a single piece base instead of three pieces. BTW, unless you're shooting beyond 600 yards, you don't need the 20-MOA bump.

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Thanks for the input everyone. On the above photo, the fit looks tight against the rear sight without a riser. I assume, since I eventually want to get the Nikon 223 3-12x42SF that I would need a riser to accomodate the scope clearing the rifle?

Good timing for this thread. I was looking at a Nikon M223 just last night. Seems like a good scope to dedicate to an EBR.

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Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

After looking at photos, and searching some reviews from various places, looks like a riser might not be needed. Guess I'll find out, didn't get a riser.

Decided to get the Burris PEPR mount (apparently it comes with smooth and picatinny upper caps), from Midway, and the Magpul Enhanced trigger gaurd. Used the code for 15 bucks off a 100.00 order.

Have a 4-16x40 UTG scope I'm going to use in the mean time. Amazon HAD the Nikon scope for 389, but apparently sold out, so the next cheapest seller was 429 and no free shipping.

BTW, I checked out the Bushnell Elites, didn't see any dedicated to the 223 cartridge, so that's out for me.

Actually there is "daylight" not visible in the above photo between the scope and the mount. It is for backup only IF you have to remove the scope, unlike a red dot mounted farther forward and "co witnessed".

That might be totally obvious but maybe not to very new shooters.

In fact , I have removed the troys for range use and have them on another rifle with a red dot sight which they absolute co witness.

With a scope like the Nikons, it is a good idea to keep the height down as close to the bbl. axis as practical. The AR bases are mostly a compromise on low height to allow folding backups.

Very informative, thank you. Never. Been a super long distance shooter but good to know the "why" of it anyway.

Cr, You do not need the riser or a 20 MOA mount for the M-223 Scope to function properly. The new 2012 M-223 Mount does not have the 20 MOA built into it like the old one. The one with 20 MOA is now the M-223 XR Mount. Just FYI, Nikon also has a new P-223 3-9 BDC Scope for 2012. It should be shipping end of Feb. I am told. Make sure you check out Nikon's Spot On Ballistic Program too. Go to Nikonhunting.com, click Spot On logo, all free. Let me know what you think.
Here's a Nikon M-223 1-4 Point Blank Reticle on my DPMS. 3 MOA center circle for quick acquisition of targets. Zero for 100 yards and you are still center mass at 200.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...KathyARPBR.jpg

I've been looking for the last two weeks for anyone selling the M-223 in 4-16 but haven't found it anywhere. Is it available yet?

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j, The Nikon M-223 4-16 will not be available until June I have been told. It's always tough letting folks know the new product's we show off at Shot Show are not ready immediately. With so many new scope's for AR's this year, it would be tough to have everything ready immediately. We do have some great promotion's planned for this year. I will keep you guys posted when they begin.

What would be really nice is a "first-adopter" discount, say, 25%?

I also would be interested in a side-focus p22 BDC-150 at 3-9x40...

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Thanks for the info. I went with the Burris PERP mount, mostly because I could not find any info on the difference between the M223 and the XR mount, I believe if I recall correctly, the Nikon website gave the same info for both mounts. So I just assumed both had the 20 MOA.

I will be getting a Nikon scope, was mostly interested in the 3-12x42 223 BDC scope. I see more than one model listed on amazon (great place for reviews!), as if there are newer and older models out. However, I could be interested in the previously mention 4-16 if dedicated to the 223. With my eyes, I need all the magnification I can get. I know I want the side focus, so I hope the 4-16 would come with that, otherwise I'll just go with the 3-12x42.

I'll check out the software online, I've read about it, but not checked it out.

Thanks for the info. Love my prostaff on my Remmy 700, it's been rock solid since mounted some 6 years ago.

Just wanted to add, when viewing both M223 mounts, they both mention having built in 20 MOA. This is looking at the Nikon website.

I do see on the website, the 4-16x42 BDC, M-223. I believe that'll be the scope I'll be getting, it does have the side focus.

Yes, Cr, You are correct, once 2011 M-223 AR Mount's are sold out the new one's without 20 MOA will carry that name.
The Nikon M-223 3-12 both BDC and Nikoplex have been huge seller's for Nikon. I prefer this model and have utilized it multiple times with group's shooting to 600 yards with it. My first time using it I went 100,2,3,4,5,600 yards without a miss just dialing up the distance. I was sold then and there.Only bad part was I didn't do work for Nikon at the time and had to pay full price. When they first cam out they were few and far between so it seemed like you never found them below MSRP.
When are you looking to get one Cr?
Here's a pic of my M-223 3-12 Rapid Action Turret on a DPMS tack driver.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...940/dpms-5.jpg

Thanks Bart, I'm looking to get one within the next two months. But if the 4-16 doesn't come out until mid year, I can wait. Or I'll just get the 3-12, cause I can already tell I'll be getting another AR sooner, rather than later.

I also have the PEPR, and it works great. No worries there.

Regarding the M-223, as long as you look for the "M-223 BDC 600 3-12x42SF", you should be able to zero (no pun intended) in on the right scope.

I've found it for as little as $329 (Amazon, I think). I don't recall where I got mine or exactly how much I paid, but I think that's about what I paid for it as well.

I'm in the market for another scope (several actually), and I will probably hold out until June to get the 4-16 version unless circumstances dictate an earlier purchase. Here's my 3-12 mounted on my M&P15 MOE using a Burris P.E.P.R. mount:

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Nice! I have the M&P 15-22. They are huge fun and just like a regular AR. Sadly my family does not share well so I have had to buy 3. I have a Nikon M-223 1-4 Point Blank Reticle on one and it is my favorite to shoot, when I get a chance.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...enSmithPBR.jpg