I wanted to post this here because my intent is Sport specific.

I have reloaded for handguns for years. Sometimes I save money and sometimes not as much as others. My Sport is in the mail and I have never bought or shot one round of .223. Is it practical, can I save money, by reloading for the .223? Well that is a lie. I haven't for 30 years. I realize one of the great benefits is customizing your loads but right now I am concerned with the cost. I have seen steel case ammo for as low as 18 cents a round to anything you want to pay. I would guess the 18 cents would be hard to beat. Accuracy, well who knows.

The second question has to do with steel or brass. I know this has been beaten to death but is it worth it to use only brass. Sounds like it's like the Ford Chevy thing but has anyone had any problems with steel? I normally wait for a sale at Cabela's to stock up on Herter's for my AK. Never had a problem but then again it's a Russian rifle and made for steel.

What are your reasons for reloading the .223? Should I start right out of the box collecting brass?

thanks guys

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

I'm shooting steel out of mine. Silver Bear, 62gr...haven't had an issue, but I have less than 100 rounds so far. This round has a nickel plated case and no lacquer or polymer coatings. The range I shot at does not allow rapid fire, so I don't what happens if you do a mag dump or two. For shooting with one second or more between shots, it works fine, so far.

Thumbs, I reload mostly to improve accuracy and the round that I want to shoot I cannot get at a cheap cost. I have read that you can reload steel rounds 1 time, because I live somewhere where you would have to have a broken reloading part shipped in I choose not to. I started reloading when I started building my Mauser customs, I guess its been almost 6 years ago. To buy quality rounds was very expensive and the accuracy wasn't consistent compared to what I could reload. Also the choices of rounds was very limited, so I started reloading and experimenting until I found a load that I could shoot in all three rifles with consistent accuracy and dependability. After learning about primers I dont think I can reload for what I can buy rounds for, in steel not even close. But as I am not a Rock and Roller with my Sport and I shoot slow, calculated, deliberate shots, stressing accuracy and distance over everything else. I live in the plains of western Kansas and the distances I get to hunt or shoot most people in the forum dont get. So therefore I am going to reload 68 grain either ballistic tip or FMJ and I may load 70 gr or over. But it is mostly for my style of shooting and when you start buying bullets in these configurations you can reload for what you can buy and make them more consistent. This is all my opinion, but the cost of the primers just scared the heck out of me!!LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

Cyphertext: I had good results with the 62 grain SilverBear, but no local source and I couldnt reload the cases. The Reloading is mostly in case of an acronym situation.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I have an order of primers (15K) arriving today, a mixture of small pistol and large pistol. Shipping and haz mat fees bring the price/K to about $30. The small pistol were 27.50/K, large 29/K. Small rifle from the same source are 25/K for CCI 41's. With shipping/hazmat, guesstimate 28/K, or 2.8 cents/shot.

I use 24.5 grains of H335 with the Hornady 55 grain FMJBT. With the last powder I bought a couple of weeks ago, that is 10 cents/shot. Those bullets list for 87/K, add shipping to round up to maybe 10 cents/shot.

Assuming you have brass scrounged up, .028 + .10 + .10 = 22.8, round up to .23/shot.

Check this for per shot costs, not including shipping:

AmmoEngine: .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, Instock For Sale Premium & Discount Ammunition, Ammo Deals

Note that the lowest price brass case stuff on the list (Federal American Eagle, 55 grain FMJ) is .33/round. This is very close to the usual savings of about 40% off of comparable factory ammunition.

If you are comfortable with steel cased ammo, it is close enough to the cost of your reloads to make reloading for economy hardly worthwhile. I don't use it myself; I use my reloads for practice and keep some brass case factory loads around for a rainy day.

Good luck; it works either way.

If I may ask where did you order your primers from?
Also you make me feel a lot better about my choice to reload.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Use this:

Handloading Cost Calculator

You have to shop pretty smart and buy in bulk to not reload your own for less. But you also have to be willing to spend money on the equipment and spend time in the process.

Widener's. Good folks to deal with.

Widener's Reloading and Shooting Supply INC

If you buy bulk, 1000 rounds 22 bullet, 55 grn., buy powder from a place that sells from bulk dispencer (my LGS does this) and buy primers buy the brick, using your own reclaimed brass.... You should be able to reload a box (20 rounds) for roughly 3.20.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Thanks guys. Yeah it will be hard to beat steel especially on sale. Cabela's ain't cheap but at least once a year they sell the Herter's 7.62 and 5.56 and or .223 for about 3.50 a box of 20. That's pretty cheap. Not on sale now though. LOL

I saw American Eagle .223 for 6.97 locally. I think I can reload it. It's brass anyway. The first consideration is doing no harm to the rifle. The second is accuracy. We are planning a trip west this summer and if I get a chance I would like to do some pdog hunting. As oneeyeopn states the distance is much further than I would ever have a chance to shoot here.

As was stated it take a long time to make your money back on reloading. I have everything for other calibers but just the dies alone will take a bit.

The trick would be to find accurate "store bought" stuff. I like to reload anyway. Just have to get some brass.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Not sure where you shoot, but at my range most folks don't even pick up the 223 brass. Until recently it was cheap to buy 223/556 and wasn't worth their time to reload. I can't walk past piles of once used brass and usually pick it up. So besides your own rounds, I bet you can find lots of brass to reload.

Well not really. Where I shoot the range is used very little. Once in a while I will go there and see another shooter but not often. Haven't seen any .223 at all but I have picked up some 9mm and the occasional .40. Good thing is you shoot by yourself, bad thing is no brass. LOL

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Thumbs I found the dies, the case length gauge and the trimmer (all Lee) for under $35 dollars on eBay from "reloaderschoice" out of Mn. And it wasnt the inexpensive dies it was the Red box with the shell holder and the factory crimp die included. I think they had the RGD? in the green box for cheaper but it doesnt include the shell holder or the powder dipper (I never use) or the factory crimp (I never have used yet!) for cheaper. Just to let you know. Oh and that included shipping (make sure you ask for the combined shipping discount) I am such a cheap skate!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Grover, that sounds like the pace setter dies, what you bought.

You should try a few without the factory crimp and a few with, to see how your rifle groups. Some claim they group better one way, others claim another.

I've always used the Lee crimp die included in the Deluxe kit on all my rifle rounds. It's another step, but it's quick easy and painless and there is no concern with it affecting bullet seat depth as it never touches the bullet. You can watch it crimp.

I had never used the FCD on my pistol loads until recently, it does more of a roll on pistol loads with no crimp groove in the bullet as compared to bullets with a crimp groove (cannelure). I recently started using it with my pistol loads (semi auto is all I have), and while I never had had feeding issues, I can see how it would smooth the transition out.

The Lee Deluxe dies, in the round red holder, don't come with a FCD, I bought the extra FCD with my 223 deluxe die set because I think it'll be quicker than using the crimp die that I get in the Deluxe set. The deluxe set includes a crimp die that is wicked easy to use and you can watch it crimp. If I wasn't going to load for a bolt action (my dad's) as well as my AR, I would have just bought the pacesetter die's and save the 9 dollar price difference (and not had to buy the FCD seperate)

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I have never used the factory crimp die, the bullet seater die does a crimp all its own and that is the only die I have ever used, I am really unsure about the factory crimp die and actually planned on talking to you about it when you come over. (east to west is come over right?) I have used the dies of my fathers that come in the red round container, these came in the red flat box so they maybe the Pacesetter dies but I honestly dont know the difference. I hope I didnt purchase something that I cannot use, but the factory crimp die you can look into it and watch it crimp. Something to look up I guess. Thanks for the info, but let me know please.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Yep I got the pacesetter dies, as I understand with the semi-auto you want to full length size all your brass and not just neck size. Is that correct? The difference that I can see is that the Pacesetter set doesnt have the collet neck sizer die, but has the factory crimp die. I sometimes second guess myself when stepping off into new territory. As I said before I have never reloaded for semi-autos and have read some things that make me want to take baby steps in this process.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Grover, there is no difference in the pacesetter and deluxe dies other than the pacesetter comes with the FCD instead of the Lee crimping die, and the deluxe doesn't come with the FCD, but has the Lee crimp die.

The full length sizer die, and the bullet seat dies are the exact same die between the two sets.

You are right that the bullet seat die will put a crimp on, but it will also affect the seating depth, the more crimp you give it. I have always just used it to seat to the depth I want, then used the Lee crimp (not FCD) to give a tight crimp (a crimp so tight, your momma would be proud!). My 30-06 does seem to group better with the Lee crimp die than with out it. I don't have a FCD for the 30-06, so I've never had that to try.


The FCD would definitely be a quicker crimper than the Lee crimp die and no chance of crumpling a case. At the very least, you might get a peace of mind of a nice rolled edge that wouldn't catch on a feed ramp during a zombie attack.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Well, I'm wrong on the difference in the two sets according to Lee's faq page. I'll have to look at my deluxe sets and see if I can tell a difference, but they are saying the deluxe set it is the same as the Collet set (used by bench shooters mostly), but adds the full length sizer die so the round is fully resized and will chamber in all guns.

Apparently the collet set doesn't resize the entire case and is intended for those loading roads from cases from from one gun and leaves everything but the neck resized because the rest of the case already fits that gun.

However, they show the deluxe 3 die set in the yellow flat box instead of the round red box.

It appears the green box contains the same dies you have in your pacesetter kit, less the FCD, case holder and scoop. And it doesn't say that set comes with any load data. It's for the extremely budget minded folks.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

My Set says it has the full length sizing die and doesnt have the collet neck sizing die, this is from the load data sheet supplied with the dies. If I had a shell holder for .223 I probably would have bought the RGB set in the green box but I didnt and while I was at it I just bought everything new to reload for my Sport. When I buy reloading stuff I buy everything caliber specific and generally dont use much with the other calibers, although I can see once my trimmer starts to wear a little swapping them around to give clean cutting edges.
Thumbs I apologize for an apparent HiJack but this is all related to loading for my Sport. Which has become my favorite out of all my rifles!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

No No don't apologize I'm learning here. I'm gonna be asking these questions sooner or later. I am planning to learn to load for the thing myself. I just went out today and picked up 10 boxes of American Eagle with the intent of reloading.

I think my big question right now it case prep anyway. I like to buy things once if possible. Don't mind spending the money "wisely" now so I don't have to rebuy later. Learned many years ago I can't afford to buy cheap stuff.

Although I have loaded pistol for years this rifle stuff is completely new to me. I have most of the stuff I need but the dies and case trimmer.

No keep goin I'm listening

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

If you are wanting Dies, I'd just get the Lee pacesetter dies for the 223 remington. It has exactly what you need to reproduce factory ammunition.

As for a press, the Lee Classic Cast, and Challenger (although they are now all Breech lock loaders) are an excellent single stage press. I have the Challenger, but it was before they made them all breech lock. With Breech lock, Lee sells a breech lock adapter, with the intention to put one adapter on each die and then you simply screw that in to the press and it remains set from your last use.

IMHO, if a person was to go breech lock, I'd just get the Lee Classic Turret. It's not a progressive press, but it does contain all your dies in a 4 hole turret, and you spin the turret to the next step in the process (it will auto index, or you can do it manually).

Ebay has plenty of deal on older Lee Classic Cast and Challenger (non breech lock press) press if you want to try to save some coin. You can buy the Lee Challenger in kit form, that comes with the Perfect Powder measure, Lee scale and press(a little over a hundred bucks for the kit new), you add your dies, and you are ready to.

Case length gauge and trimmer are a must as well (bout 12 bucks for the pair)

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I have the Classic with the breech lock inserts. As I learned earlier I got the Pacesetter set with the case length gauge and trimmer for $33.25 to my door. I still think I got a good deal for the brand new complete set.
ReloadersChoice on Ebay but as we looked today they have sold 18 sets in the last week and a half!!

OH and I bought my Classic press complete kit with everything but the dies for $98 dollars on eBay also! Brand new in the box

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Grover Oathkeeper

Thanks Rod

I have the Lee Classic Turret Press for my pistol calibers now. Yep with the quick change turret it makes it real nice. Just to the point now where I can be dangerous. LOL
Probably my first purchase will be the dies and the quick change turret. That will be a little while. I just bought the rifle. I will keep collecting brass though.

I will also have to ask you guys where to get bullets.

Oh what is the difference between the Pacesetter dies and the Deluxe die set?

Gives me something to think about. LOL

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Thumbs, as I figured out yesterday the Deluxe set has a collet neck sizing die and no factory crimp die. The pacesetter set has the factory crimp die but no neck sizer die. If you are loading for a particular bolt or single shot rifle you can use the neck sizer to reload the fireformed cases from that rifle for better accuracy, because the cases are already formed to fit the chamber. When reloading for Semi-Automatics or multiple rifles it is recommended to full length resize instead of just the neck. That is how I understand it. Maybe Rod or someone else will add more information.
Grover

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Grover Oathkeeper

Ok than the Pacesetter is the set I need right? Also with my pistols I use 4 dies. Do I need another die for the rifle set other than the 3 they come with? Depending on that will determine if I need a three or four hole turret.

I found last night, while playin, that it looks like my Zip trim will run the rifle cases fine. So I won't need one of them to start. I will need the trimming tool though.

Ok I read somewhere about total length and neck length. The only thing you can do for length is trim the neck right? I think they were referring to either trimming using the back of the brass up against a holder, like in a trimmer where you set the distance from the back of the case or something like the Lee trimmers that use the inside primer hole as the reference point. Is it a big deal one way or the other? Of course the Zip used the inside primer hold.

I know it's best not to give me load data, I can look that up in the book, but can you tell me a good powder that is readily available that works well in the .223 in AR's? As of now that's the only rifle I will be loading it for.

Bullets, what seems to shoot best in the Sport? I know they seem to handle a pretty good spread of weights but what seem good for longer distances? Also where are you guys getting bullets? As of now it's probably best for me to get the powder and primers locally. I will probably only get 1k at a time so the extra hazmat stuff doesn't make sense.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Honestly, I'm not sure what is what between the sets. I see what they say on Lee, but when I view the instructions online, the crimp die in my deluxe set looks just like what they call the Lee Factory crimp die.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RM3508.pdf

It looks different the the factory crimp dies from the pistol sets I have.

This makes me wonder if I just ordered an extra crimp die for my 223, should be here today and I'll see....

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Yeah Rod me too. I was looking at the thing and was tryin to figure the difference. Anyway there is a name and price difference. I figure there has to be a difference somewhere. I understand the autos have be a little different than a bolt but which ones do we use? With the pistol there is a separate FCD. Should we have that on the .223? Idono 2

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Thumbs with my pacesetter set I have a full length sizing die a bullet seating die that will do a small crimp and a factory crimp die. that much I do know...my old 8x57 set doesnt have a factory crimp die and it does well, but they are bolt actions

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Grover Oathkeeper

Ok then it looks like the pacesetter is the way to go with the full case sizing and "factory" crimp. I guess the other one is for bolts.

So the long and the short of it is I need a three hole turret.

Oh Cabela's has free shipping on orders of 49 dollars or more. Just an aside.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

You can use the 4 hole turret and buy the rifle loading die to mount you powder dispencer on (if you use your turret press with a dispencer on it. The rifle loading die is universal for all rifle cartiridges.

I think the pacesetter set would be the safe way to go. But hang on! You might be able to buy the RGB set cause I might end up with a spare FCD die for 223..... We will see.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Oh wait... yea one of the holes is for the powder drop, LOL

Is the rifle dispenser different? I have the Lee disk powder measure. I have whatever it is to load for pistol. Are they the same? I think they are the same with just the different disks. I have an adapter that stays with the turret and can move the powder dispenser from turret to turret. I just looked in the Lee reloading book and it shows the auto disk numbers for rifle. Didn't get to the shop to see if there are different sets for rifle and pistol but I kinda dough it.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

The powder dispencer sits in the case flaring die of the pistol dies and drops its load when flaring the case mouth.

Rifle dies don't have this die. I believe this die is what takes place of the caliber specific pistol die that the powder dispencer attaches too.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I know you have the auto disk setup, do you have the disk doublers as well? You may not need them for 223. But if you find your auto disk will not dispence a load large enough for the 223, you'll want the Lee Auto-Disk Powder Measure Double Disk Kit. It is used with the disks you already have to double the output.

Even with the disk doubler, it won't output enough for say a 30-06. In that case you would drop your drop load back to half of what you want, and simply drop two loads (which is also an option with your current setup without having to buy the auto disk double kit). But with the double kit, you can fine tune your loads as well.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

The load sheet that came with my Lee Dies for almost all powders says it needs the doubler...wasnt sure what they were talking about as I use the lee powder measure thing to drop the powder separately than my Press

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Grover Oathkeeper

That's the way we poor folk with single stage press do it Grover!

The auto disk and disk double work with either the Pro Auto Disk powder dispencer or the Auto Disk powder dispencer as you use it on the turret or progressive style press.

I'll probably go to the Lee Classic Turret press when I win the lottery (they really aren't that expensive, and in fact are only a couple bucks more than that Classic cast press you have). Since I'm loading for 243, 3006, 9mm, 40 s&w, and now adding 380 acp and 223 to it, I kinda like the idea of putting the dies in the turret press once and simply swapping out turrets when changing calibers. I'll be adding 7.62x54r and 300 aac before too long as well.

Until then, it's just me and my challenger press

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Oh, and my Rat Terrior Cappy! and can't forget my cat Norman....

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

yeah being able to just change out the turret is a heck of an advantage. To be able to set the dies once and done makes it worth it. Like you say it really isn't that expensive a set up.

I probably have all the disks. Heck I think there are about 4 of them on the bench. Not sure but more than two. It may be worth it to keep a powder measure just for pistol and buy another for rifle. It may make things a lot easier. Again not that expensive.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

DO NOT start reloading to save money! You will end up shooting twice as much!

When I crunch the numbers I save about 30% without counting the time I put into it. It will take me about two years to break even on the fairly modest setup I have. I'm sure by then I'll have found something that needs upgrading

I don't count the cost of equipment, I consider it a hobby and relaxing, just like the guns that the bullets are for

I'm still going to spend the money that I was going to spend in the first place, I just choose to allocate the funds differently is all

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

YOu guys that are reloading for rifle. I'm thinkin here. Would it be better to get the Perfect powder measure rather than the Pro auto disk powder measure from Lee? My thinking here is with pistol it is easy to see the powder after it is dropped into the case. With the rifle it isn't so easy considering the small opening at the neck of the case. I was thinking it maybe safer to charge the case out of the press so you can see that the charge was dropped. Is this over thinking or is the standard practice?

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

I currently use the Perfect Powder Measure, but I'd use the Auto disk as well if I had one. I'd dump a few samples and weigh them to check accuracy before dropping a load in a case, to make sure I had a system down for consistent dumps.

On the PPM, I flick the handle with my finger 5 times when filling the drop tube, and again when dropping the powder in the case. I just do this to make sure I have a consistent load regardless of powder, since some bridge, such as Unique. I'd probably tap the Auto disk in the same manner, for my initial check weights as well as my actual drops.

But if you are looking for a reason to buy a new toy, that PPM is pretty cheap!

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Rod...I do the same thing with my powder measure but I think I tap it like 3 times. and then visually check the case. Plus during loading I occasionally stop and reweigh my charge to make sure it is still dropping consistent. I purchased a digital powder scale from Midway in July to make measuring faster than with the balance scale. But now that I have the calibration weight for my digital I am going to check how close my balance scale is. It has always been on and when I have had a powder bridge it has been easy to see, so it was easy.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Hey Grover, I have a cabelas scale with two 50g weights. The G is for grams, not grains, so I don't know how that crosses over. This scale will do grams, grains n a few other odd ball measurements.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I have a Frankford Arsenal with a 50gram weight and I just checked and it is 772 (+or-) I didnt pay that much attention grains. I dont think my Lee balance scale will go that high.
did you just get it today?
Mine does grams, grains, ounces and counts pieces to. I will send you a pic!
What'd it cost ya? Plus it came with a powder tray

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Grover Oathkeeper

Just picked it up at cabelas in wichita, it was 83 bucks. Yeah, I don't think the lee scale goes past 110 grains. I've always trusted the lee scale, but also always curious how the two would compare.

BTW, I think my deluxe dies are what lee sells as pace setter now. I compared current pace setter and deluxe in 270 winchester, and mine are same as pace setter. Back when I got mine, I believe the just had RGB and called mine deluxe, no pace setter. But I could be wrong.... Anyway, I had dad get a set in 270 since he wants me to reload for his newly acquired Ruger M77, 270 Win.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Rod I had a gift certificate for my birthday to Midway so one of the things I got was the digital scale...my lee balance always worked good it just takes time to get them set up and I thought that if the digital is accurate it will cut down my set up time tremendously. Yeah my Dad was trying to sell a Swedish Mauser 6.5x55 1919 all matching numbers...instead he picked up all the reloading stuff for it, He likes RCBS I think they are all about the same just the price is different but I could be wrong.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I am trying to get things together for reloading for the Sport.
I am interested in accuracy and know I will have to exp with what works but.........

What powder are you guys using??? I was looking in the Lee book and it looks like Accur2520 will work for 52 to 60 grain bullet.

Also what bullets and where are you getting them?

thanks

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

I buy my powder in Wichita...I am using IMR4895 but I use it in most of my guns. I havent bought bullets yet, Wichita is 2.5 hours east of me and its the closest place to me to buy from. I have a Doctor Appointment at the VA on the 6th so I have had Rod looking things over, he was there this weekend. He lives East of Wichita. I am hoping to find some nice 68 grain either FMJ or HPBT might go as high as 70. If the price is right I could even go with V-Max or A-max. Gotta see what I can purchase it is getting hard to get certain Items. Gonna find primers also, either the #41 CCI 5.56x45 primers or Small Rifle Magnum Primers which ever I can find.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I bought some Hornady 55 gr fmj, box of 500 from Midway. They are purdy. I'm going to load some up with Winchester small rifle primers. As for powder, not sure on that yet...

While at the gun store today, I almost bought some Alliant 10x powder as it was listed specifically for the smaller center fire, and designed with the 223 and 22-250. It was about 25 bucks a pound, so I passed on it and will see if my local shop has it, they'll poor off powder out of large containers and sell for a better price.

Might also try benchmark powder, it's supposed to be the cats meow for 223, especially in semi-autos as it burns really clean. Also gets a 55 gr bullet upwards of 3200fps.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

Thanks

For some reason I was thinkin about 55 to 60 grains on the bullets. No real reason just because I see it most often I guess. Like I said I looked in the Lee book and they listed Accurate 2520 for those weights. I do know I want to get something that is readily available.

Can't remember where I got this, maybe in this thread, but there is a place Widener's Reloading and Shooting Supply INC

they have a pretty good price on bullets I think 90 bucks for 1000. Has anyone used this place and or these bullets? Just wondering how they fly.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.