That's a pretty good price savings. I'd like to see the Remington model and hope it's not just a relabeled Bushmaster.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

According to this link
The USA’s M4 Carbine Controversy

Is is a "R4"
Remington Defense

I do not doubt that bushmaster will be part of the military contract being under the same roof. But all parts have to meet a certain spec and level of quality so time will tell how it affects civilian prduction. Maybe they will have seperate production lines. Maybe bushy build both theres and remmy for the civilian market .

We all should have noticed that with colt knowing that there military contract being gone they have expanded the SA revolver and 1911 line. Maybe they will get off there rear adjust pricing and build the old .22lr pistol line again and what AR's they can sell. They may have to scamble to stay in the black long term. Lots of other choices today for quality 1911's, AR's and SA revolver.

Well here it is under both bushy and remmy banners the ACR. Kinda FN look'n to me. Go to the specs section and watch the videos.Remington Defense

Matt I wish you no disrespect but anything from M4rgery is so biased that I give it no weight nor will I waste my time to look at it. This is all my opinion but when I went there when I first bought my S&W, I left with the opinion from them that I was gutter trash. I have since come to the conclusion that they and AR15.nuts have to be that way to justify the expenditure of 2 to 3 times the cost of my rifle for theirs. I am sure they are fine rifles. Personally I have never seen a Noveske or a BCM or any other rifles that they compare against. I have seen Colts, Bushmasters, DPMS and M&P15's. I have also seen homebuilts but none using the very expensive uppers that they talk about. I have seen alot of AR pattern rifles, but out here in Middle America where we hunt and use our rifles no one can justify the expense when they can buy something else for less money that does exactly the same job. Have a good day.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Lol on a funny note here, robS the guy who made the infamous chart got himself banned over there.

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CLEAR!

Did you notice on the ACR no F/A or Dustcover....things that make you go hmmmmm

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Grover Oathkeeper

That Adaptive Combat Rifle is the rifle I was thinking the contract was awarded too, but apparently not. I'm thinking they are having the military test it, but it is pricey. Most I see at gun shows around around 2 to 2.5 grand. Very cool rifles.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

It's a completely different animal than the AR-15. It may very well have something to it that isn't visible in the pictures that do what the FA or dust cover were thought to do. Or perhaps it was just designed in a way that either of those features were never going to be an option or need.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

The bolt kinda reminded me of a ruger 10-22 in its set up

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Grover Oathkeeper

You're not supposed to notice that, because that's what it is a 2,000.00 10/22

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I am shooting hand loads, The load I worked up for my Sport is 24.5 grains of H335 over a 55 grain Hornady fmjbt with CCI #400 primers in once fired lake city brass. I would hand load and work up a round for a colt the same way and see what the colt can do, if I buy one.

After a phone call to colt and their lack of concern or willingness to allow me to talk with anyone other than the lady that answered the phone about a possible problem with one of their AR 15's, I am second thinking wanting one of their AR 15's.

I am shooting handloads my self 26.8 grains of CFE223, CCI #41 primer and either Hornady 55grain V-Max and Z-Max. Shoots great. But it also shot great with Federal XM193 5.56x45 ( where all of my brass came from)

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Grover Oathkeeper

There is so much bad information and fanboyism in this thread the OP needs to run for cover and forget this thread ever existed!

In what respect? Please clarify.

My father has an M&P 15 sport model, we love shooting it, its accurate and goes bang every time. I have a windham, have owned and handled colts, bushmaster, dpms, stag, del-ton, plum crazy lower with stag upper.............. buy what you want, shoot the hell out of it and have fun. If you want a defensive weapon do research for YOURSELF call the companies, read online, read magazines! Most all AR's today are about the same thing, if I could afford another H-bar right now, id have it, thats just my opinion. But I settled for another brand (windham) based on availability and pricing and what that company stands for. The M&P15 sport my father purchased is going to be used for plinnking and coyote erradication duties.

Personally I don't believe that you should discount SOME of the snobby websites. Before I ever got my M&P, I already knew how to inspect it, clean it and maintain it. I've bought "emergency" parts and high wear parts as a just in case due to their web sites. Like anything else, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Yes, some of these sites have misinformation and fanboys, at the same time there is good information there. When I find information there I cross check it with other websites and my LGS. On M4 that gives some good tips, It's titled "Be an informed consumer!" I had the chance to buy a Colt 6920 or my M&P 15 OR. Based on what I learned from the other sites and this one I still choose the M&P. It fits MY needs and has performed well for me.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

This thread is really falling off the deep end.

Just buy what you can afford and WANT. It's really no-ones business how you spend your money. They all go "bang". All cars are "transportation", but some people like Ford and some like Porsche.

Most people try to buy what is practical and affordable, for them. I had been waiting months, for a new 15T, but a great deal came my way, for a Noveske, so I bought it. NO regrets, no snobbery, it was in my budget, and I WANTED it.

I apologize for my narrow mindedness, I still occasionally do peruse the other sights. I just always seem to leave them with bad taste in my mouth. I know that the "boutique" as I have seen it called gun makers build some really fine weapons, and if I ever win the lottery I will have a LMT but to discredit someones choice of weapon over and over just gets to me. I have looked back over my posts and realize that I am starting to sound like them and that is not who I am nor who I want to be.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Funny, I had my choice of Colt or S&W and bought the OR because of my long time preference for things "S&W".

My issued revolver many years ago was a brand new , 4" bbl'd S&W model 10. In the Marines, I never developed "Colt love" because my issued rifle was an M14 and later, I carried a 1911 sidearm.

I will say this. My wife bought my rifle because she knew I liked S&W branded firearms. When I got it I looked it over closely and it was absolutely flawless in finish. I have sent thousands of rounds downrange with it with never a problem (I do keep it very clean and ready between range trips). I might buy an LMT .308 someday but I would never give up my OR. I am one happy customer and see no way a Colt would be superior except on some chart. JMHO.

Sgt. Fanboy, USMC, MPDC

I had a bad experience with colts in the corps but forgot we had worn out ***'s the other branches gave to us lol and I shouldnt let that affect my opinions either. I do agree with oneye on his statement above. I am sorry folks.

Forget all this bickering over M16's, M4's, AR15's, etc. It gets old quick and makes me want to switch platforms just to get away from it all.

Get me a FN SCAR...

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-John

GMC Man...we did get the worn out stuff...didnt we...and ancient C-Rats...Then I would see the preventative maintenance comic books and never knew what the equipment they were talking about cause we didnt have it LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

Funniest example of " leftovers" in the Corps, at Camp Geiger during ITR, we went from area to area in grey, old Navy "cattle cars". They had , "No Skylarking" stencilled on the wooden wall slats. LOL, Marines do a lot of things BUT "Skylarking" was definitely NOT one of them! S'plain Sailors!!!

Its a chart that has been submitted to the manufacturers for them to fill in the blanks.
How is that biased?
Sorry you were treated poorly there.
No disrespect intended but DPMS and Bushmaster are nowhere near the quality of Colt. (I've owned them all)
We also use/hunt with our rifles here on the east coast.
Have a good day.

IMHO After having a colt and shooting a few Windham Weaponry AR 15's, I would take a new Windham over the Colt, for accuracy, fit, finish and price.
The old Bushmasters were great rifles, the new ones being built by Remington not so much.
My S&W Sport is a great rifle

Colt.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?...=5&output=html

Read everything in this chart. Lots of good info.

I developed a differing opinion after shooting a Windham yesterday. Overpriced ****.

I'm not going to bother comparing that *** to my pony but I'll tell ya vs the M&P 15 Sport I owned, the Windham was a much looser shooter with a crappier barrel and horrid detail work. Not to sound like one of "those" guys but they cant even stake the castle nuts for a $1000 gun. For $300 less the M&P Sport is 10000% a better gun OTB. I honestly felt bad for the guy as he left with a case stuck in his chamber.....he even said he was looking for an M&P before buying the Windham LOL!

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CLEAR!

OH this is so much better than the list that he previously put out.
thank you very much KJM for sharing this with us.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I wish S&W would reply and not say the info is proprietary. However, I guess the marketing folks know that it would do more harm than good, as they know they do not build to "mil-spec".

I live in 'Remington Country' of central NY and I'm telling you it has been at least 20 years since Remington has made a good gun. I at one time had a safe full of Remington guns. Now most are Tikkas and a few of the old Rems.

The old Bushmasters were built by the same guys who are now Windham Weaponry.

Thanks for the WW vs. M&P review, I think.

I was wondering how the two would compare.

I can drive 30 miles and by Colt AR15A3's all day long for $600, they already have the quadrail installed some are 14.5 barrels and some are 16" barrels. Actually in really nice shape...a lot of them are H-Bars or...
I can buy Bushmasters not sure of the Model number but they are just the same as the Colts only they dont have H-Bar barrels but they look identical and have the same length of barrels.
These are all trade in's and most of them dont look to have a ton of rounds ran through them. Quite a few people around my area and across Kansas are buying them from this dealer. I really have 3 questions.
1. Where do they come from? They are not select fire so they didnt come from the Military and they are not brand new lowers.
2. Why are the Bushmasters costing more than the Colts, and yes these are real Colts and real Bushmasters.
3. Where is this value that the Colts supposedly are going to hold. Colt made millions of these guns even before the other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon. So they are as common as toothpicks.

In many posts I have read that the Colt is going to hold its value. I dont see it. One of our members works in the trades and talks about he deals in colts at the $700 to $750 range. I value his knowledge and opinions but not here they dont have that kind of value. Our local Wally World has a couple of Colts and a .308 DPMS that have been on their Spinning wheel for well over 6 weeks but the S&W's sell as soon as they get them in the door.
The gun world is made up of strange bedfellows!!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Initial measurements and data:

Our Colt 6920 was recieved with 4 position Rogers SuperStock. The SuperStock turns 5-8 degrees on the reciever extension axis under about 20 ft pounds of torque. It cannot be moved forward or back with handstrength when locked and no movement is observed when getting a cheekweld in normal shooting positions. The handguard rotates 10-12 degrees on the barrel axis under 10 ft pounds of torque and moves forward and back about 3/32's of an inch. There is minimal play between the upper and lower. When pushed together, no light passes through. When pushed apart, light and the corner of a 20 lb sheet of printer paper can pass through the gap, but 2 sheets of paper will not. The carbine weighs 6 pounds 14.8 ounces. The bolt carrier group weighs 11.6 ounces and the bolt is marked "MPC". Our three measurements on an RCBS trigger pull scale were 7-14, 6-8, and 7-8, for an average pull weight of 7 pounds 4.667 ounces.

The M&P 15 Sport has a regular M4 style stock which moves easily forward and back about 1/16 of an inch in all 6 positions and rotates 5-8 degrees with minimal torque. The handguard rotates 3-4 degrees under about 10 ft/lbs of torque and moves forward and back a detectable, but less than 1/64 inch amount under about 30 pounds of force. The Sport weighs 6 pounds 2.7 ounces. The complete bolt carrier group weighs 11.2 ounces and the bolt is marked "MP". The extractor has a doughnut o ring around its spring. Play between the upper and lower is on par with the Colt. Trigger pull measured 6-2, 6-12, and 6-4 for an average of 6 pounds 6 ounces.

Since the Colt was recieved with 2 20 round Colt magazines with black followers, we have purchased 8 of the same for the evaluation. Ditto for the 30 round Pmag shipped with the S&W in that we bought 9 more so each carbine begins with 10 magazines identical to what it was recieved with.

The Colt has a forward assist, an ejection port cover, and a grenade launcher cut which the Sport does not. Both have A2 style flash suppressors and bayonette lugs.


Front sight base markings:
Colt- "F" on the left, "<B>1" on the right
Sport- "A J F" on the left, "o 8 2" on the right

Handguards:
Colt is 2x shielded, 7 3/8 inch front 8 1/16 inch rear circumferences
Sport is not shielded, 6 3/8 inch front, 7 inch rear circunferences

OAL:
Colt 32 13/16- 36 1/8 inches
Sport 32 7/16 - 35 11/16 inches

Extractor spring
Colt- 4 coil with black insert
Sport- 4 coils with black insert and black o ring

Extractor
Colt is "C" marked
Sport is "I" marked

Colt bolt carrier is "C" marked

Barrels:

Colt is marked "C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7"
Sport is marked "5.56 NATO 1/8 5R"


Creep, reset, and overtravel

If we define creep as the distance between when sear movement begins and hammer fall occurs, overtravel as the distance between the triggers breaking point and stopping point , and reset as the distance the trigger must move forward for the disconnector to release, we get the following:

All measurements are of the movement of the tip of the trigger where the trigger is closest to the bottom of the trigger guard. Although the trigger tip moves in an arc, measurements are linear from point to point.

Colt- 3/32 inch creep, 2/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
Sport- 2/32 creep, 3/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset

100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Sport 095 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La
Error numbers are based upon sample sizes and environmental conditions

Win q3131 1.91
Fed 50 gr jhp 1.631
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.031
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.097
Win 45 gr varmint hp 2.303
Wolf 62 gr fmj 1.707
Fed 62 gr otm 1.645
Speer 63 gr jsp 2.188

Avg of 8............... 1.814 +-.4
avg of 5 55 grains and heavier ......1.909 +-.6

Fed m196 tracer 4.4839

100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Colt 6920 883 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La

Win q3131 2.337
Fed 50 gr jhp 3.817
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.448
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.166
Win 45 gr varmint hp 8.311
Wolf 62 gr fmj 3.016
Fed 62 gr otm 4.238
Speer 63 gr jsp 3.680

Avg of 8............... 3.627 +- .6
avg of 5 55 grains or heavier..... 3.084 +- .8

Fed m196 tracer 4.619

Yesterday evening, we had several experienced shooters try 4 different rifles with populer AR triggers and rate them 1 - 10. Here are the average ratings:

Colt 6920 stock trigger................ 4.0
Bushmaster with ALG ACT............5.7
M&P 15 Sport stock trigger...........6.3
Bushmaster with DPMS 2 stage.....7.8

Trigger feel is very subjective. I believe that before buying a Rifle, one should try that rifle's trigger for oneself.

I will not drink from the Colt Kool-Aid glass and say all other AR rifles are second rate. The Colt M16s they handed us in 1969 in the military all jambed and were junk as far as I was concerned.

When your Colt firearms and buying parts from the cheapest vendor then there is a reason for 100% mil-spec testing. If all your parts are made in house then batch testing is more than good enough.

My son has a MP&15T and I bought a DPMS A2 HBAR as a cost saving measure to be able to shoot with my son. The DPMS is more accurate but the M&P15T is slightly better made.

If my son and I are attacked by zombies I will just shoot the zombies that are at longer range with my DPMS, and let my son do the close range clean up with his M&P 15T



And my DPMS wasn't made by Mattel and goes bang every time I pull the trigger.