Hey guys, I'm going to be picking up a rifle soon and am stuck between the Smith and Colt offerings. Can some of you who have unbiased opinions and possibly own these comment. I'm looking for objective opinions only. Are there any recent changes that haven't been posted yet?

There are a lot of s&w models.
Can you be more specific in what model colt and s&w you are considering buying?

that leaves out my opinions, they are both good choices, enjoy whichever direction you go.

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Grover Oathkeeper

the only question other then price is how well does colt back their warranty? S & W are outstanding as far as that goes but stink on communication. my 2 cents lol

.223 some are LAW ENFORCEMENT Models; all with a 16" barrel. If that doesn't help, I'll dig up specific numbers and post up later.

The s&w I have functions and shoots the same as my colt. The main difference is the barrel twist rates.
I like that S&W is US made still.
I like that Colts tend to have great resale value.
The Colt will probably cost you a little more for a similar S&W model.
Either are fine firearms in my opinion

Thanks for the advice. Anyone else have any tech advice on durability?

The Smith Melonite barrel will outlast the chrome lined colt barrel, but unless your just throwing thousands of rounds down range you will probably not wear either one out. The smith barrel also is inherently more accurate than the colt, just due to the manufacturing differences, but as the other poster said the resale on the Colt maybe higher in the long run.

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Grover Oathkeeper

When buying my M4, I was choosing between a Colt 6920 and a M&P15. Ended up going with the M&P15 (I bought the OR variant, the most direct comparator to the 6920 would be the M&P15 Rifle) because I couldn't find any substantial difference between the two except the 1:9 vs 1:7 twist rate on the barrel, and the Smith was about $100 less expensive. Both have chromed chambers, bores and BCGs which should give you comparable (and excellent) durability. They source their receivers from many of the same forges. Both have generally good reputations for quality and customer service. I don't think you can go wrong with either.

It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that the only Melonite barrel that S&W sells is on the Sport - I think all other M&P15 variants have a chromed bore (mine does), and the quick and dirty way to tell the difference is to look for the M203 cutout on the barrel - the Melonite versions don't have it.

Nice info.... Are the trigger pulls much different? Reset?

[QUOTE=Gatorade;136515631
It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that the only Melonite barrel that S&W sells is on the Sport - I think all other M&P15 variants have a chromed bore (mine does), and the quick and dirty way to tell the difference is to look for the M203 cutout on the barrel - the Melonite versions don't have it.[/QUOTE]

It used to be that way but more of their models are starting to wear that barrel. They are not vying for a military contract and they hit a home run with the barrel so why not. Also I have been looking for a barrel for my next build, and have one purchased it is a 1-8 melonite treated and not coming from smith....a lot of barrel manufacturers are going to it because of its out performance of chrome lined barrels. No disrespect intended to you or the OP.

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Grover Oathkeeper

The Smith also has the integral trigger guard on some of their models. I would think that it would make for a more rigid lower since its pretty stout.

I went with s&w because of there warranty and low cost. That left me with enough $$ for the furniture and optics I wanted.

Colt MAKES the M4, S&W and all others make an M4 clone.....

Colt from the factory ( main items )

1/7 twist chrome lined barrel High Pressure and Magnetic particle inspected and marked ( each ) of Mil spec 4150 CMV steel

Full auto bolt carrier group ( chrome lined ) extra weight slows the cycling rate of the carbine length system

Heavy or Heavy 2 buffer

High Pressure and Magnetic particle inspected/marked bolt ( each )

USGI trigger

Milspec level III anodizing

Milspec buffer extension

vs

S&W


1/9 twist chrome lined barrel

or 1/8 twist 5R rifled barrel ( melonite treated) of 4140 ( non milspec but still good for s/a weapons) Magnetic particle inspected in batches ( individually looked at from what I understand) non marked as so/ no info on High pressure testing

Newest high end S and W models * VTAC II and MOE spec have a 4150 CMV ( milspec ) barrel w/ the 1/8 twist and 5R rifling melonite treated

LM&T semi auto bolt carrier group ( chrome lined)

MP marked bolt ( no hp testing info available)

unmarked carbine ( light ) buffer

USGI trigger ( except VTAC that has the new Geiselle super V)

Level II hardcoat anodizing.

Milspec buffer extension

Basically out of the Box the colt has all the "milspec" boxes checked off. These bits can add to the reliability of the weapon in heavy use. It may offer you a higher resale value because of the branding. ( see clone comment) Is this stuff necessary for your uses?

The S&W though not milspec offers alot of great features at a good price point.. especially the melonite barrels as mentioned above. Good luck

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CLEAR!

The M&P 15 T ( tactical ) wears the same barrel as the Sport. Also the new VTAC and MOE Magpul spec wears the new Melonite treated 1/8 twist 5R rifled 4150 CMV milspec steel barrel.

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CLEAR!

AFIK Colt (and soon, apparently, Remington) is the only manufacturer to have the actual M4 data package. The 6920 is a 16in semi auto version of the real M4. S&W makes some nice rifles but stay away from the ones with Mossberg barrels. There is not much cost difference between the high end LE S&W models and the Colt. I will take the Colt every single time.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

Serious end user grades LMFAO

Above milspec ( boutique)

Larue Tacitical, Noveske

Milspec TDP

Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, Colt, Lewis Machine and Tool

Below milspec/ high quality

Smith and Wesson

****

Rock River, DPMS, etc.


S&W barrels are made by Thompson Center ( an S&W company ) no Mossberg Barrels

The price point issue is debatable. Depends on the barrel choice or other features THAT YOU WANT. For example the 15T comes with a nice FF quad rail for the same price as a basic Colt out of the box. Is that important to you or is all the milspec stuff important? Make your own decision.

buy what you can afford to shoot and shoot alot. Otherwise its all moot

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CLEAR!

Unless you are on Active Duty or have a class III license or one of a few Police Departments, Everyone is an M4rgery, Colt does not sell an M4 to citizens and as I understand it Remington now has the contract!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Thompson (owned by S&W) makes the barrels for the M&P15 line. Would you show the link for the Mossberg Barrels on an M&P15 please. This is the very first I have heard of that.

sorry for the edit:
MOSSBERG barrel on a S&W M&P15 are you out of your freakin mind!!! Thats as bad as the Rifle Salesman claiming M&P15's have cast uppers. This disinformation all comes because some people have to justify spending twice as much as they need to for a fine functioning rifle.

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Grover Oathkeeper

The other difference when it comes to twist is you can shoot heavier bullets with the 1:7 twist vs the 1:9. My OR also has a chrome barrel.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Yes. Mossberg does supply barrels for S&W...or has recently at least... and the 'boutique' makers do offer better guns than the factory S&W, my preference is the BCM midlength but if you want the real deal you go Colt...only. The S&W is a hobby gun but a good one...still not up to the top tier rifles made by Colt, BCM, DD or Noveske...but not priced like them either.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

Show me...post a link....My Dad has a Hbar Colt...why cant it shoot groups like my sport....Mossberg Barrels....where did you get this information, I am sorry my friend but I have to question your information, I have to question it hard. Also show me the engineering data that shows chrome to be better than melonite. I can show you from someone who doesnt have a dog in the fight where it is not. For the first time I am asking for empirical data to show where the overpriced gunsnobs are better than the M&P series.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Please provide data to back that up. In my searches, I've only found unsubstantiated remarks and those reference 2008.

I honestly believe that only 1% of AR-15 owners actually use their weapons to the extreme. Whether it's a Colt, BMC, DD, S&W etc. most will never see sustained combat action. The high end "milspec" rifles are great and nice to have, of course you do pay the price. I believe, that for most who will never see sustained combat will do fine with most any QUALITY AR. I don't mine that my S&W 15 OR does not have "milspec" annodizing. It, so far, has met my needs in every way.

Pat Rodgers in 2008 wrote an article in S.W.A.T. magazine. The article's title is "A tale of three Smith's or 23,460 hard-use rounds down range." I would tend to believe that a retired Chief Warrant Officer Of Marines, retired NYPD Sergeant and the head of E.A.G. tactical knows how to abuse and recommend or not a "battle" rifle.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

it sounds to me like you have a big chip on your shoulders about the M & P 15,which is funny considering this is a S & W forum lol. Have you ever fired the colt M-16 A 1 or A 2?

I have and if you have you would know that the M & P 15 is actually a more accurate rifle than the colt and I have had less problems with the M & P 15.

So my question to you is where are you getting your information at?

I have had a forum member, questioning my data on Melonite over chrome. In case any of us have forgotten read :

Barrel Specs for Sports in the Sticky posts list.

It will more than substantiate my statements for those who still believe that chrome is harder or better than Melonite.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Let's look at this based on facts: there are only a few companies making true mil spec M16 and M4 for the US military. Colt (and the bunch --- FN, H&R, and in the future Remington) is one of them and has been involved with supplying for the military since the beginning.

They upkeep their standards high in order to meet the requirements of the mil specs and have been doing it for decades. I am not sure if there are many AR manufacturers out there with this kind of credentials under their belt. And so, the reasons for the difference in price. I am willing to pay the price because it has been proven and refined in all the US military conflicts for the past 50+ years.

An AR15 made by Colt is a Colt.

Likewise, an M110 made by Knights Armament Company is a KAC. There are other people making SASS but they are not proven by our soldiers in the field.

Oh boy...here we go again.

(my computer pooped out and all I have is this dumb Kindle Fire)

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-John

You say that like it's a bad thing.

OP; you are asking for some differences and how they will really affect the (A) Price and (B) Quality.
Okay, this thread is so full of 'Stuff'...... I won't begin.
From Colt: The primary reason a Colt costs more is part product sourcing, part meeting true .mil specs, and the documentation that goes with it, and finally- reputation/ name. Colt is THE combat AR15/ M16. When you talk about materials sourcing; Colt has a protocol to follow, and certain materials are mandated. That costs money, from 4150 Chromoly, to specific plastics for their stocks and grips, and everything in between.
Meeting MIL spec; it takes full blown testing ( Visual, mechanical, chemical, and destructive.) As such, this adds cost up the wazoo. ONLY Colt goes to this length. LaRue, BCM, yadda yadda nada. Without the spec book, one can only reverse engineer, and guess. Some are above the spec potentially. Many meet the spec, whether they realize it or not. But only the horse on the side can claim it. Which is where reputation comes in.... You are going to always have brand loyalty, and there is a little to be added onto the pricetag for that.
S&W: They added massive amounts of capacity to their factory, to produce in house ALL the parts of their M&P guns. Pistols, rifles.... all made right there. Smith makes their own barrels, they USED to source them out.They forge their own uppers and lowers, previously they subcontracted this materials sourcing also. If you have never been to the S&W factory- it's Hucking Fuge.
As to their capability to accurately build a quality AR???? Hehehehe..... building a 9504 semi pistol is much more compolicated in reality. Smith tests to a very high standard, and it has shown with the finished products they are delivering, especially with regards to their AR platform rifles.

IMO; the cost outlay for the OR, T or whatever series of S&W rifles represents spending considerably more than you will for a Sport. And, for that, you will trade a bit of barrel twist for the F?A and a dust cover. Of course, the freefloat barrel model adds yet more cost, but the difference might show up in extremely long distance shooting. (It may be offset 100% by the barrel twist difference, and inherent benefits of 5R rifling and no chrome lining of the barrel.

There is NO WAY to say " A colt will outlive a Smith". It can't be proven, not for about another 10-20 years. It will take that long for them to completley wear out.
If resale value is your main concern?? 2 schools of thought here: A true Colt holds its' value very well.
A S&W M&P 15 Sport will run you about $700-775 out the door. I can honestly say you will not be settling for $500 for a used sale on one anytime in the near future. Reality will peg the resale at about $600-700 right now. SO, say a 10-12% loss. For a $1000 Colt, you will see a similar drop in resale value. You would expect to sell it for about $775-875. ( I do some work in this industry; these are the range of prices I am selling/ buying/ trading them for.

To say "Colt makes the ONLY real AR15"..... well, that is fine. I will counter with "Smith and Wesson makes the ONLY real 44 magnum."

In reality, there are many great 44's to choose from, as there are many great AR's to choose from. The only REAL question is: How much do you want to spend in the first place on the gun? And how much do you plan on spending on ammo for the gun?

If the answer is $1500 total.... that means a Colt for $1000 and $500 worth of ammo (1800 rounds). Or, a $700 Sport, and $800 in ammo (4,000 rounds). Yeah, you get a bulk rate break when you get up into the 4-5K ammo purchases.

Around here you can buy used Colt AR15A3's for $600 out the door as far as the specific model number not a clue but I have recently noticed that rifles coming from the dealer who is selling them have a 16" barrel or a model with a little shorter barrel but a really weird flash hider that is almost 2" long. The same guy is selling used Bushmasters for $675. They tried to tell me that they are coming back from the sandbox, I dont believe it because the lowers are all SemiAuto and so are the BCG's. Most of them have quadrails on them and he and his kid are pulling off the Magpul rear sights and putting carrying handles on them. He is a bigtime used gun dealer in Kansas and hits all the Major gunshows in Kansas and adjoining states. I am still trying to figure out why the bushmasters are selling for more than the colts but it is his business and the roll marks arent new so where are all these inexpensive AR's coming from. My Dad was dissappointed in me for not buying a colt from him but I really like my choice better.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Rojo is correct. Overall price of the gun plus ammo. Buy what you can shoot and shoot alot. Otherwise its all moot. Shoot the dang gun, shoot it until it dies and buy another ( and buy another). Buy what you like and what you feel is necessary for your "mission". Take all these recomendations and make your own decision.

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CLEAR!

i dont know about yall. but when the SHTF... my non milspec M&P15OR will sure as heck be right by my side... who cares if it isnt to military specs.... it'll still do some major damage BRING ON THE ZOWBIEEEEZZZZ W00000!

Both S&W and Colt are great rifles and I doubt you could go wrong with either one. Both have their own features etc and both will fit your needs and wants.
I shot a few Colts and S&W's that belonged to friends and I bought the S&W Sport and have never regretted it. I do intend to buy a Colt Match target model in the near future just simply because I would like to own a Colt and be able to truly judge them for myself.
My Sport with a 2x7 Leupold scope will shoot sub MOA @ 100 yds all day long with its 16" melonite barrel. Will the Colt match target do as well ? I am going to find out for myself.

I have had/shot a Colt (early model) and it was a fine version of the AR platform. That said, I now have a S&W M&P (MOE) version and I have shot the heck out of it using mostly cheap Russian steal case ammo and it has NEVER failed to do what I bought it for-------GO BANG EVERY TIME.
I looked at all of the AR style rifles out there that I could and went with the Smith over some pretty good names.
My MOE is the 2011 version with the 1/9 twist and chromed lined barrel and if you put it next to a Colt and you didn't see the name, you couldn't tell the diff. The only modification I have done is put a Magpul 'winter' trigger guard on. Simple push pin out, put guard on and reinsert using Magpul pins, took all of 5 minutes. For optics I have an Lucid HD7 red dot and it has worked as well as the rifle has.
The concern I have with any 'custom' maker of the AR is IF the demand slows down, will they be in business, I am pretty sure S&W will and to me, their service is top notch.

TBH the claims of outshooting a Colt with an S&W and any other gun are kind of silly. Thats on the operator for the most part and goes on a gun by gun basis. It will always go to a bias of what you own ( I'm sure on the Colt forum they are talking of how they "smoked" a BCMDDLMTS&WDPMS at the Fudd range)......But remember......*GASP again.... We dont have to defend our purchases, ignore anyone who tells you how you spend your money is wrong. Do your homework and buy what you feel is necessary for your "mission" at hand and MAINLY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO SHOOT! Shoot the freaking gun, shoot the **** out of it.

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CLEAR!

The AR 15 rifles colt is building for the civilian market is just another parts gun not any different from many. They source out to who ever can fit there needs like so many others.

I would be willing to bet if s&w won a contract to build for a military it to would then offer more 4150 barrels and go through the rest of the inspections for goverment approval. When was the last time colt made the parts used in there rifles?? Not just assembled them. Atleast as time goes by S&W is building more and more in house compeletely. Colt can't say that. Colt is still building to 1990's spec's.

Colt might not even be in busness today if it was not for a contract with the military that would not allow the military to bid the contract for M4's outside of colt till 2009. Well time has come for a new bid for M4 rifles and it went to remington. No more protection for colt.

I keep hereing on other forums about how remington and so many other firearm companys is owned by ceberus capital management, investment banking group and how bad it is for the industry.

Who knows who owns colt. Donald Kiljha & company. An investment banking company, private equity firm. Not gun guys. He bought colt in 1994 cheap, payed off its debts and made a deal for 15 years to be the only supplier of M4's to the military. It will be interesting to see how they handle lossing this contract. If it gets sold off down the road or pieced out. Maybe only SA revolvers and maybe 1911's in a few years. It is to bad they can't produce the huntsmen and woodsmen line again. That's it with my rant.

im a video game geek... and one of my favorite game franchises is the mass effect series where half the bad guys in the series work for a financially stacked private military weapons technology research and development firm called Cerberus........ the geek in me just chuckled at the coincidence lol sorry had to chuckle since i was just playing mass effect

Naw I get it. Just seems no one owns the oldest american companies that are true gun guys anymore. Its all about the bottom line at all cost.

Blaze away at the BG.

Rebs...if your experience follows mine there will be about a 2" difference in favor of the S&W!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Ok so Colt was the first AR.
The first AR's never had a FA/DC.
Colt is the first Sport.

Bam, I just blow everyone's mind. Haha.

No Armalite were the 1st Ars. Its what AR stands for.

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CLEAR!

The Armalite Division of the Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation, Costa Mesa, CA was established in 1954 for the sole purpose of developing military firearms using the latest in plastics and non-ferrous materials. It's team of Eugene M. Stoner - key designer, Robert Fremont - prototype manufacturing supervisor, and L. James Sullivan - who oversaw drafting work had been they key developers of the AR-15.

Prior to the AR-15, Armalite had developed:

AR-1 - 7.62 NATO parasniper rifle, extremely lightweight, using Mauser-type bolt action; only prototypes built in 1954

AR-3 - 7.62 NATO self-loader using aluminum receiver, fiberglass stock, and multiple lug locking system similar to the one later incorporated into the AR-10

AR-5 - .22 Hornet survival rifle developed for US Air Force and officially designated the MA-1

AR-7 - .22 long rifle self-loader, receiver and barrel store in plastic stock. (1959-1960)

AR-9 - 12 gauge self-loading shotgun with aluminum barrel and receiver (5lbs) 1955

AR-10 - 7.62 NATO auto-loader, aluminum receivers, led to AR-15 design


The AR-15, designed around slightly enlarged version of the .222 case firing a 55gr projectile at 3300fps, and weighing in at 6.7lbs, took some of the best features from earlier designs:
•locking system similar to Johnson Automatic Rifle
•gas system from Swedish Ljungman AG42B
•in-line stock to help with manageability during auto fire
•hinged upper/lower from FN-FAL
•rear sight in carry handle like British EM2
•ejector port cover from MP44

So confusing. Don't they (Armalite) also call their 9mm pistol an AR-24?


Now back to Colts and Smiths.

I think Remington does have the contract, but I don't think it's the M4 they will be making. But I could be wrong. I was thinking they came up with a new wiz bang rifle to try.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I have the LE6920 Colt and the M&P 15a. Both seem well built and function as intended. One small thing I like about the colt, and it can be added to the smith is the front sling mount.

The smith is mounted to the front sight (the sights are the same, colt could have put one there as well), but the colt has some adapter that puts the sling point on the side.

The Colts seem to be coming with the new buttstock from Super Stoc, kinda like the MOE, but a little different. Locks in place and feels like part of the rifle. Unlike the retail version of the Super Stoc, the one that Colt supplies cannot accomodate both MilSpec and Commercial tubes, but that really doesn't matter since it fits the tube it comes on....

I believe the Smith has a smaller hand guard, Colt being a bit taller. Both are lined with a metal heat shield.

Both have play between the upper and lowers, Colt possibly having a bit more. My Colt was more than my Smith, but I got a great deal on my Smith. I've seen Colts advertised on the net for 995, but seldom in stock. I got mine at wally world, they sell them for 1097.

Smith comes with a 30 round Pmag, Colt comes with 2 2 round metal mags and a 4 piece steel cleaning rod, couple of brushes and a steel patch holder (never saw one in steel before).

As mentioned, the Colt is a 1:7 twist, so that would allow the use of heavier weighted bullets which might be of use to you if you can use the 223 round to hunt deer with (I cannot where I live). Otherwise either is going to shoot the cheap 55 grains ammo fine.

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Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

The Colt is an Armalite clone then right? It's an AR15; not a CO15.

*After reading further, it looks like I was beat to the punch. Oh well.

Honestly when I took them out to shoot, My Sport, My Dads AR15A3 Hbar and my friends Bushmaster Patrol sumthin, I wanted to do an honest comparison, the Sport and Bushmasters both were new and the Colt was used, but the barrels all looked good. I used the same Federal XM193 5.56x45 ammo in them and had any of them outshot the Sport I would say so but they did not. They all functioned fine, no problems anywhere, I wasnt using optics I was just using the Iron's that came on the rifle and I sighted them in before I did the comparison. In doing this I thought it would take the shooters ability out of the picture and bring it to just what the rifle was capable of. The rifles are all very capable for home and personal defense. But when it comes to shooting a Prairie Dog at 250 yards only the sport was there. Honestly any of the three would make a fine Coyote rifle at 250 but the P Dog is less than 1/8 of a target and it requires optics.
This is all my opinion and doesnt matter but thanks

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Grover Oathkeeper

I found this interesting, Armalite sold the rights to Colt in 1959. Colt then registered the name "Ar-15" for the civilian M16. Colt first issued the M16 to the U.S.A.F.. In 1963 the U.S. Army started testing the rifle(XM16A1) with the first appearance of the F.A. So technically and legally Colt was the first "AR-15" and first U.S. issued sport. Just my p.o.v.

ccracer712 Here he site but it will not load. U.S. Army places order for 24,000 M4A1 carbines with Remington | Military Times GearScout

It is for 24,000 M-4 contract number is W56HZV12d0056. remingtons press release is on April 24 2012.

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