Ya, I know. Most people know little to nothing about AR's (or guns in general), but since they own ONE, they are now the expert.

We also run into people that are "married" to their purchase. So when you try to have a technical discussion with them, they basically stick their fingers in their ears and scream NO!

For the record, I am a S&W LE Distributor. I make my living by selling S&W products. I am also a fan of the company and personally carry an M&P pistol and own some of their rifles. With that said the truth is the truth and if one of the LE Reps for S&W was in this thread, they would be the FIRST one to tell everyone that their AR's are not to the same quality as Colt.

Just sayin....



C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Foxtrot...when a person who is SpecOps and when not "downrange" is developing small arms for the army in your part of the world tells me that that is the standard they go by, I have to take your statements and remove klingons with them!!!

__________________
Grover Oathkeeper

oneyeopn, I replied to this post in PM

C4,

Since you have access to all of the TDP data, and help develop the M&P15, why not tell us the specific differences in quality between the M&P and the Colt?

What parts, manufacturing , quality control, assembly, etc. are the specifics that make the difference?

If you are going to state that product "A" is better than product "B", you should be ready, willing and able to tell us specifically why.

I am not saying that the Colt is not superior, just that you saying that is because they wrote and follow the TDP is not a good answer to the question of better quality.

The Sport sells for around $600. The 6920 sells for around $1100.

You defend the Colt compared to the 416 based on price, why not the same consideration for the M&P?

I look forward to finally hearing from an expert as to how and why Colt's are specifically better than any other AR platform manufacturer.

Thanks.

Foxtrot, I replied to your PM and apologize for what I said!! It was uncalled for!

__________________
Grover Oathkeeper

Sure. Models compared are the S&W M&P 15 and a 6920. Here is some of the most glaring items:

1. Barrel Steel quality
2. No HPT/MPI (barrel or bolt)
3. Gas port size (too large)
4. No H buffer
5. Receiver Extension is not hammer extruded and is not made out of 7075
6. Twist rate

I have not been to the S&W plant (and watched assembly) for a while now so I hate to guess. The big one though is lack of QA/QC procedures. They don't have anybody that knows what they are looking for.

Sure (which is what I have done).

It IS if you fully understand what that means. A company that has to follow a blueprint (that they cannot deviate from no matter how much more expensive it is) VS one that has no set of standards to follow is the clue.

IMHO, when a company does not have a set standard to follow, they will more times than not follow the one that puts the most money in their pocket. The exceptions to this rule are from companies that have a high moral standard and are typically owned by one individual. Some of these companies are DD, BCM and Noveske.

The Sport sells for closer to $700 and the 6920 sell from us for $1050 and have seen them from other dealers for $1k. So that is around a $300 dollar difference. The Govt buys the M4 for $700 + and pays over $2k for the 416. Not the same comparison (sorry).

As I have stated many times already, the SPORT is simply a fantastic value and is probably the BEST of the low end AR's. It is however, not a Colt.



C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Gentlemen, coming from Grant, this is quite an endorsement.

Grant,
Could you address how some of these items affect a rifle for civilian use please, especially 1,2,5, 6?

1. Barrel Steel quality - For a civilian use rifle, semi auto fire, does 4140 vs 4150 CMV make much difference?
2. No HPT/MPI (barrel or bolt) - I thought the M&P line bolts were...maybe not individual but at least batch tested? Also, S&W uses the semi auto bolt, and I don't understand the issue there, since I fire semi auto.
5. Receiver Extension is not hammer extruded and is not made out of 7075 - Does this come into play outside of having to mortar the rifle?
6. Twist rate - again, civilian use, most are shooting 55 grain, maybe 62...

I know that this is the standard Colt is built by, but I don't really understand where these things make a difference for a semi auto rifle used to shoot paper and hogs, and maybe defense if it ever came to that.

As far as #3 I have to agree, although I have bought barrels from other companies that have even bigger gas ports. And I have H buffered both of mine.
I question #6 because the guns winning at Camp Perry for the most parts are running the 1:8 twist.
But I too await your answers to Cyphertexts questions?

__________________
Grover Oathkeeper

To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it.

I really like the direction this thread has gone. VERY educational. Thanks guys!

I also really like the M&P 15 Magpul Middy, then again I pitched it to them almost two years ago. ;-)



C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

1.Sure can. Many Civy's look at barrel steel and say; "I'm not going to shoot FA so what does it matter?" This is a good question, but the reason why I like the better steel (specifically CMV) is because when I see 4140 used, that is usually a red flag to me that the gun is over gassed and could possibly have an out of spec chamber (more .223 and less 5.56 NATO). So in this case, I am right. This is also a cost cutting measure.

2.I think S&W batch test MPI's, but no HPT. This is about worthless IMHO. FA carriers are heavier than SA so I simply prefer the heavier carrier.

5.Cost cutting and weakness. As someone that has had to mortar a round, you want a strong RE!

6.One of the biggest lies told to the consumer is that the 1/7 twist cannot shoot 55gr ammo. This is pure BS. I ONLY run 1/7 twist barrels and for the most part ONLY shoot 55gr ammo. The 1/7 twist rate allows you to really extend the lethal range of the AR by shooting 77gr ammo. Also, much like the barrel steel quality, when I see 1/9 twist rates, I am immediately concerned about an out of spec chamber and over gassed barrel.


First let me say that you should choose the AR that BEST fits YOUR needs and wants. So you might want one for general plinking and hunting. Max rounds you shoot in a year is 500rds. You also do not attend any training with said AR and it would not be the first gun you grab in a life or death situation. So in your instance, you aren't concerned with many of the aspects of a fighting gun and the TDP has little value for you. I understand this and would say go with what you like.

I on the other hand will shoot 5,000rds a year, attend 2-3 carbine schools and bet my life on my AR. So in this respect, I don't want ANY corners cut in order to save a dollar as my life is worth more than a cheap AR (YMMV).



C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

If I was running a S&W AR, I would be running an H2 buffer (FYI).

I like 1/8 twist and my varmint AR has it.


C4



Parts list:

Upper

Noveske/VLTUR MUR
BCM 16" SS barrel
Noveske 13" NSR Rail
G&R Tactical BCG
BCM GunFighter CH (MOD 4)
KAC 300M BUIS
Magpul MBUS 2 Front
SureFire FH 212A
SYRAC Defense Adjustable GB

Lower

Lancer (forged) lower
G&R Tactical LPK
Geissele SD-C
LMT Receiver Extension
LMT Castle Nut
G&R Tactical H buffer
Tactical Spring Co buffer spring (blue)
Magpul MOE Plus Grip
LMT SOPMOD
Novese QD Receiver plate



C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

The Colt civilian AR and military models are all based upon the original Stoner AR-10 semi-auto platform. The Stoner was not mil-spec, could not have been, because at the time the Stoner AR was originally developed there was no firm mil-spec for the military platform that would eventually become the M-16. Even though the Stoner AR was used as the basis for the Colt weapon it was Armalite that developed the basic AR platform in the 1950's, Armalite sold their rights for the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt in 1959. This is where the "AR" comes from in "AR-15", it stands for "ArmaLite Rifle". Neither the Armalite or the Stoner were "mil-spec". The Stoner AR-15 derived from the 7.62 mm AR-10 designed by Eugene Stoner, Robert Fremont, and James Sullivan of ArmaLite corporation. The AR-15 was developed as a lighter 5.56 mm version of the AR-10. ArmaLite also developed the AR-1, AR-5, some models in their AR series were bolt action rifles, their AR-7 was a semi-auto survival rifle. All Colt AR's are technically clones (a distinction often ignored by Colt fans) because they are based upon a design which originally belonged to someone else. Other AR manufacturers make AR clones marketed generally with separate designations such as the S&W M&P15, all of these other manufacturers clones are generically refered to commonly in a weapon class type sense as "AR-15" or just "AR".

In the early 1980s Colt designed a prototype compact version of the M16 which the military eventaully designated as the "M4". In the 1990s Colt trademarked and patented the term "M4" and further developed weapon that evolved into todays M4. The military designates new models of various pieces of equipment with the "M" designation for model, with each new version getting the next sequential number.

The name "AR-15" and "M4" belong to Colt, AR-15 refers only to the Colt semi-auto rifle and the M4 refers to the military M4. Colt insists the terms should only be used to refer to their products and theirs alone, and has used this in lawsuit claiming illegal use of "look and feel" and misuse or illegal use of their trademarks. Thus no other manufacturer has been permitted to use these terms or a "look and feel" of a Colt AR or similar function/operating specifications of a Colt AR version including military versions. This has led to other manufacturers weapons being different in aspects to avoid legal issues with Colt. Most notable of lawsuits is the Colt lawsuit against Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch when both tried to address the civlian and military market and tried to compare their own firearms to Colt. This lawsuit has had the effect of supressing competition from other manufacturers for the military and civilian markets. The effect has allowed Colt to maintain their contract for supply of military weapons and make claims and broad suggestion for their weapons in both the civilian and military markets in such a manner as to allow it to be infered other manufacturers weapons are inferior even if they may be of quality and other aspects equal to, or better than, a Colt weapon.

Colt uses their own technical data packages (TDP) for their products. Their TDP consist of the designs, specifications, patents, trade secrets, manufacturing processes, know how and other intellectual property. The Colt TDP is a closely guarded secret that is not available to other manufacturers. Basically, the Colt TDP contains information used to produce the military weapon, another TDP may contain information needed to produce civilian available AR weapons, and another TDP may contain information needed to produce Law Enforcement models. Other manufacturers also have their own "TDPs" (although it may not be called a TDP) for their own weapons. TDP's change as needed, sometimes frequently, and are considered living documents. Contrary to popular belief Colt does not own the rights to mil-spec specifications and any manufacturer is free to produce and market a weapon based upon mil-spec. Other manufacturers may also make a mil-spec civilian available AR and simply not advertise it as such, an example is the S&W M&P15OR which is produced as a mil-spec weapon but its not advertised as such. The myth that there is no such thing as a civilian available mil-spec AR or that Colt is the only one that can make a mil-spec AR is not true.

As an example of marketing tactics for civilan available models used by Colt; When Colt applies the term "M4" to a civilan available rifle, for example "Sporter M4 Carbine", it does not mean the rifle is an M4 Carbine in a civilian version. The term "M4" or "M4 Carbine" for Colt civilian available rifles refers to the Colt "look and feel" style of their brand. M4 is part of a brand name type for Colt, M4 for the military rifle is a military designation for a model/version of weapon. It just so happens they are both the same term so it appears synonymous between the two even though the Colt civilian available AR model and military terms use are not synonymous. It does not mean a person is getting a military rifle with just the auto related stuff removed in a civilian version. This is one of many marketing tactics used by Colt related to their overall marketing based upon their military contract history and allows the public to infer they are getting an original mil-spec military model in a civilian version by careful application of the term 'M4' in the name, advertising, or marketing for civilian available models.

Stoner had the rifle that was closest to what the military had started looking for in the late 1950s, mainly a lighter version of a 7.62 weapon that used a smaller less expensive caliber, accurate, high velocity round and Stoner had that in their lighter version of their AR-10. The lighter version of the AR-10 was called "AR-15", this makes all Colt AR's and their military weapon models derived from the original Stoner AR-10. Colt was looking for a market for its newly purchased AR-15 firearms rights, they turned to the far east market first and the first ever commercial sale of Colt AR-15s was made to Malaysia in September 1959. The Malaysian contract was filled using the very first Colt marketed AR-15s ever manufactured in December 1959, the first quanity produced was 300. Colt then marketed the AR-15 rifle to various military services around the world, including the U.S. military. The original AR-15 was a very lightweight weapon, weighing less than 6 pounds with empty magazine, later a heavy-barrel version of the civilian AR-15 appeared that weighed around 8.5 lbs. Although the Colt AR-15 based models are firearms made in the U.S. the Colt AR-15 was not first marketed in the U.S. as some believe and was first marketed in Malaysia.

The Colt AR-15 was eventually adopted by the U.S. military under the designation M16. Colt continued to use the AR-15 trademark for its semi-automatic variants (AR-15, AR-15A2) which were marketed to civilian and law enforcement consumers. Colt used the Stoner AR-15 platform, derived from the Stoner AR-10 platform, in the 1960's and made changes to satisfy the need for a U.S. military rifle and got the contract because at the time they were the only company that had tooled specifically for the "developing mil-spec" for the new military rifle to be known eventually as the M-16, they were already tooled up for manufacturing because they had produced the AR-15 for the Malaysian contract in 1959, and they were willing to devote the main focus of their manufacturing infrastructure to the military platform. It was not until after Colt got the military M-16 contract that the mil-spec for the platform was firmed up and developed further. The only reason Colt remained the supplier for the military platform is because Colt was willing and able at the time to make the main focus of their manufacturing infrastructure the military models and have continued to do that to this day but this has been challenged by other manufacturers willing to do the same thing.

It is often said that some Colt semi-auto law enforcement models use the same parts as the military M4 version (except for the auto capability related parts) and there is only one set of parts used. Although it is true that semi-auto civilian and law enforcement versions are manufactured in the same general manufacturing infrastructure as the military version, it is not true that only one set of parts are used.

When we began the replacement of all of our Colts we had to decide between either complete replacement or refurbish back to factory condition. It would cost us almost as much to refurbish than a LGS was willing to supply on contract a new M&P15 OR. It would cost us more to replace the Colts with new Colts straight from the factory than it would cost us for a new M&P 15 OR from an LGS on contract.

In several thousand rounds a month over the last year since we began our replacement we have found no difference between the Colt and the S&W M&P15 OR for function, dependability, or accuracy.

Although Colt is a fine weapon, and I used and tested them for many years, its reputation as some sort of "Gold Standard" for AR's is based more upon advertising, marketing, supression of competition, and a combat weapon platform contract supply reputation than reality in todays world because there are manufacturers that also produce AR's that are equal to, or better quality than, the Colt. The only difference is a lot of these others came late to the contract party and have geared their lines more for the civilian market. In other words, if Colt had not gotten the original contract for military supply, there would be another manufacturers weapon being called the "Gold Standard"

My apologies to the forum for bringing back this thread on Colt superiority. It's been fairly well beaten. I promise this is my last.

C4,

You have convinced me!.... You've convinced me that if Uncle Sam ever places a full auto rifle with grenade launcher in my tired hands and sends me off to Afghanistan, I want it to be a Colt. Since that's never going to happen, not so much

This portion of the thread began as a discussion on the question of Colt superiority, not to S&W, but the AR population in general. You have successfully turned this into a Colt vs S&W, and in the end a significant trashing of the S&W brand. BTW, I'm certain that everyone here will admit to Colt quality, most everyone would be happy to have one given to them. Buying one is another question.

Do you regret posting that S&W has “no set standards to follow” and “... lack of QA/QC procedures. They don't have anybody that knows what they are looking for”? This is a 160 year old, very successful and admired brand in the weapons industry. If a company makes toilet paper, toasters, tires, or AR's, they WILL have standards and QA/QC. If they “don't have anybody that knows what they are looking for”, that company most certainly won't be around for very long.

I call foul on the H&K comment. I pointed out that the Seal Team 6 member carried an H&K 416 on that raid, which was also his “primary weapon” used daily. He had M4's, but they were not his first choice. The H&K is NOT manufactured under the Colt TDP. You dismiss this as OK because the H&K is more expensive. You also dismiss the S&W Sport as not OK because it's not less expensive enough. It's all about the Colt TDP, or it's not.

I previously asked you for data to back up the Colt superior claim. My life's work has always been results oriented. Yes, if object A is claimed to be superior, I need to know what object A will do for me that object B does not. Given that full auto rifles with grenade launch capability will never be a reality in my life, I still see nothing that the Colt 6920 will do for me that a variety of other manufactured rifles will not. Still waiting to see a study demonstrating that a 6920 shoots straighter, farther, faster, lasts longer, never fails.... I don't give a hoot if it has kryptonite lined barrels and chrome balls hanging from the trigger guard, if it doesn't do it better, what's the point?

I admire your rifle photos. What's interesting to me in regard to this discussion is – I see no Colt parts.

Twist rate – I really don't have a clue on the 1/7 vs 1/8 vs 1/9 twist rate. As I've stated, I am a relative newbie. However, from the chart presented on this forum, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference one way or the other for the average shooter. I do know that a 1/9 barrel will accurately shoot 50 – 69 gr ammo, which is what the great majority will be shooting. You state your opinion, no evidence presented, that when you see 1/9 you are “immediately concerned about an out of spec chamber and over gassed barrel”. Where does that come from (facts please)?

No MPI/HPT – You subsequently changed your statement, after someone else corrected you, to say that S&W does batch testing for MPI. Here is where gov't requirements with taxpayer money vs a consumer oriented company selling in a competitive market meets reality. I fully understand why the Army requires 100%, but batch testing is a common practice on a manufacturing line when the line has control of it's processes. You see this fact as a greedy company stuffing dollars in it's pocket. I see this as a reality of the marketplace, a way to produce a quality product for the consumer at a lower price while keeping the company competitive and employees working. And BTW, MPI/HPT testing does NOT impart any quality into a product. The quality is already built in.

Mil-spec and Colt's TDP – There can be an advantage to not religiously following mil-spec. Specifically, I'm referring to a melonite 1/8 5R barrel. Try finding that in the Colt TDP. You see this as a simple cost saving step by S&W. Try convincing Sport owners that this is an inferior approach to barrel manufacturing. Choice is good.

Doing some searching, I was surprised to read that the Army placed an order for 24,000 M4A1 from Remington at $673 per copy. The previous Colt M4A1 buy was priced at $1221 per. Of course, the rifles will be manufactured using Colt's proprietary TDP. Another surprise - nearly 10 manufacturers have produced AR platform rifles over the past 50 years. One of them was Bushmaster, which should make a Colt fanboy even more ill than an S&W.

Anyway, I thank you for the discussion, information you have provided, and pushing me to do some thinking and my own research.

Cheers!

This is interesting. I do not agree with it (as I have friends inside of Colt that basically tell me everything they do and don't do).

There are of course differences between an M4 issued to the Govt and say a 6920, but the differences don't have anything to do with the quality of the gun, more to do with the capability (like FA fire).

If you would like to further discuss this, please PM me and we can continue this discussion further.


C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Well, its even reflected in their advertisement and marketing:

Colt Rifles - states:

"Colt rifle customers want the genuine article. They know that the story of today’s Colt commercial and sporting rifles began with the Stoner AR-15® design that Colt transformed into a military-grade rifle -- the Colt M16 automatic rifle. First deployed in the early days of the Vietnam War, the M16 followed in the footsteps of its Colt ancestors, establishing the quality, reliability and performance benchmarks by which all tactical military rifles have since been measured.

Nearly half a century has elapsed since the United States Government first fielded the Colt M16. Since that time Colt has never surrendered its position as manufacturer of the world’s preeminent combat rifles. During the War on Terror that followed September 11, 2001, American troops have increasingly been outfitted with the Colt M4 carbine, successor to the Colt M16 and proud bearer of the American and Colt military tradition.

Colt’s rifles are the only rifles available to sportsmen, hunters and other shooters that are manufactured in the Colt factory and based on the same military standards and specifications as the United States issue Colt M16 rifle and M4 carbine. Colt customers want the best, and none of Colt’s competitors can match the quality, reliability, accuracy and performance built into every Colt rifle."

1. The only way to get the genuine article is to get the same military model supplied to the military. How many here can go out and buy the same military model, raise your hands. So no, regardless if civilain customers want the genuine article, they still can't get it (at least not legally).

2. Their manufacturing, marketing, and advertisement in relation to mil spec only applies to their military line > "establishing the quality, reliability and performance benchmarks by which all tactical military rifles have since been measured."

3. "American troops have increasingly been outfitted with the Colt M4 carbine" > and thats because Colt has the contract. If another manufacturer had the contract they could claim the same thing.

4. "Colt’s rifles are the only rifles available to sportsmen, hunters and other shooters that are manufactured in the Colt factory and based on the same military standards and specifications as the United States issue Colt M16 rifle and M4 carbine." , based upon because of the reasons I previously outlined a few posts back, "based upon" and "being" are two different things. So yes they can legally strongly suggest their civilian lines are mil-spec by using such wording without them actually being mil-spec. And of course a Colt fire arm is the "only rifles available to sportsmen, hunters and other shooters that are manufactured in the Colt factory" because...wait for it...well, its a Colt, Duh!.

5. Colt cites quality as a difference, and they do have a quality firearm but other manufacturers also have a quality firearm as well.

So like I said, if Colt had not gotten the original contract for military supply, there would be another manufacturers weapon being called the "Gold Standard". Thats because if Colt had not gotten the original contract they would have had nothing to capitalize upon for advertising and marketing, and its that contract that gave them a monetary advantage so they could aford to pour more into further advertising and marketing earlier to establish a foothold in the civilian market which is why they became entrenched in the law enforcement community for a long time along with their seemingly never ending contracts to law enforcement agencies that locks them in to the Colt brand. If another manufacturer had gotten the contract they would have been doing the same thing Colt has done, advertise and market based upon what they did for the government contract.

Don't get me wrong. Colt is a fine weapon, I used and tested Colt platforms over many years and am intimately familiar with them, they have a fine weapon to be proud of. I'm not saying that Colt does not have certain standards. However, the comparison of Colt as a "Gold Standard" to the disparagement of other manufacturers is somewhat unfair and incorrect. If the other manufacturers had the same contract advantage as Colt has had the other manufacturer product would be called the "Gold Standard". There are other manufacturers that produce weapons that are of the same quality as the Colt.

If we were discussing that the civilian models do not have automatic fire, it would be different, but thats not what we are discussing. Of course the civilian models do not have automatic fire, its a moot point mostly. We have some weapons that do have automatic fire, actually three round burst, and even those are not Colts any longer. What we are discussing is the comparability of Colt to S&W, and in this forum in terms of the civilain platform owner. In the long run there is simply no differences between the Colt and the S&W other than specific wants or desires for civilian use, as they both put a round down range within the same accuracy range as the M-4 platform was intended to do in the same manner using the same functionality with comparable quality within their repspective scope. It then becomes a matter of preference or favoritism of one over the other, based, basically for most people, upon price - $1200.00 or more for a Colt, or $1000.00 or less for the S&W to do the same thing for the civilain owner.

If the discussion and debate can be civil and respectable, please do not take to PM. I think many of us are interested in learning about the different manufacturing processes the different brands use, and I would like a definitive answer as to if the Colt 6920 really rolls off the same assembly line as the M4, with only a handful of different parts.

You gotta admit though Grant, that Colt does have a history of playing games with civillian ARs in regards to the Mil-Spec area.
High shelf lowers, blocks in the low shelfs, the infamous oversized pins including take downs, and semi auto bolt carriers.
BTW, good to see you here instead of at that other site.

__________________
Hold my beer and watch this!

Many people that "KNOW" the truth in the firearms industry (in regards to quality and such) won't say anything. At the end of the day, the truth is the truth and I will always set the record (no matter the manufacturer).

So no, I don't regret telling the truth. If you don't want to hear it, that is 100% on you.

Just so you know, most of the companies that push out AR's these days really don't have a QA/QC process. For the record, I submitted a QC checklist to S&W and offered to do training on the subject. We shall see.

Would you believe that I have spoken to many Tier 1 guys that will tell you that they have ZERO interest in the 416 and much prefer a MK18 or M4 as they found them more reliable. So it is ALWAYS operator preference.

The fact is, I wish that I could get my hands on the 416. I would sell them all day long. Same goes with the SPORT. The SPORT isn't "OK' it is a fantastic AR. As I have said, best AR for the money. It is not a Colt, BCM, DD, KAC or a Noveske though. If you like it and think it is better, that is fine with me.

You have to realize that making things cheaper and not having a set blueprint to follow (standards if you will) will NEVER create a better gun than one that uses more expensive parts, has a plan to follow and better QC/QA.

Not to sound rude, but this is my JOB. It is what I do for a living. So you can either take my word for it or stick your head in the sand.

Correct, no Colt parts in that particular gun. My main training gun utilizes a Colt M4 upper receiver though. I know that this will be hard to believe, but I am not a Colt Fan boy. If anything I am a S&W fanboy (which is what I get accused of on other forums). My problem is that I have to tell the truth and when I see misinformation happening (like in this thread) I have to correct it.

One of my jobs is fixing AR's that won't work. So this means that I see a lot of them. The most common issue we see is out of spec chambers (DPMS, RRA, BM, etc). They say 5.56 NATO on the barrel, but are much closer to a .223 chamber. So I have to ream them in order to get them up and running.

1/9 twist barrels sweet spot is 55gr-62gr. Anything heavier is really a gamble and will be a case by case things in regards to how well it will shoot a group at 100yds. With that said, the problem with 1/9 isn't really the bullet wait or reliability with those weights. The issue is from .223 chambers (or worse) in a 5.56 gun and you get stuck casings, blown primers, etc.

No. Batch testing (if they even do that now) with NO HPT prior is worthless (as it doesn't show you anything).

Correct on not making a product any better. It does however identify bad barrels and bolts and that is important.

You cannot judge an entire weapon or the TDP by ONE PART! Yes, you like the melonited barrel. That is only one aspect of the gun. As good as the SPORT barrel is, it is still over gassed. This means more felt recoil and powder/residue in your chamber. S&W also drills the gas port AFTER they melonite the barrel. This is a mistake as you could have stopped any gas port erosion.

In this latest competition, Colt submitted a bid of well under $800 dollars I believe. Not $1221.

I am glad that you are learning, but you really only know what you read on the errornet. You need to own more AR's, attend rifle schools and work on them. After about 10yrs of this, come back and discuss them with me.

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

First, Colt (like S&W is run by lawyers). If you look at the S&W page (left side in blue), it says: "Modern Sporting Rifle!" http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...51_757784_-1_Y

This is a common theme these days, but has nothing to do with anything other than making a combat weapon look like a hunting rifle.

A Colt 6920 is $1k (not $1200). Most everyone in the AR industry views Colt as the Gold Standard. BCM, DD, S&W, etc, etc. I can even send you a link to where the owner of BCM states that it is a honor for anyone to even consider their AR's as remotely equal in quality to a Colt 6920. I think you would be shocked to learn that most (if not all) of these companies own a 6920 for reference purposes. If it wasn't the standard in the industry, why would they have them??? Clue.


C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Not everything I need to say should be visible to the general public (sorry).

I will tell you that Colt only has ONE assembly line. They also only have ONE set of parts. So a Military issued M4 gets the same parts as a 6920 (less the 14.5 barrel and auto sear).


C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Don't argue that at all. Part of the issue is the State they are located in though and THEIR mandates to Colt (like all the items you just listed).

It is true that for a long time Colt has ignored the Civy consumer. This has now changed.

Thank you for the welcome. I am a S&W Fanboy so this is a good place for me to be!



C4

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Yeah, I took a tour of the Colt plant back around 2000, it was one of the most interesting tours I've ever been on.
Was up in Avon taking the Simmunition course and out of the Blue one of the instructors asked the class if we'd like to see it.
Only Three of us took him up on it, everone else couldn't wait to get back to the motel and start drinking (typical LEOs).

__________________
Hold my beer and watch this!

@C4IGrant

Instead of adding further confusion in this thread I PM'd you.

C4,
I have a question about one part of your post earlier on. I've been reading these 2 pages again and again to learn more about AR's in general, own 2 M&P Sports, agree the Colt is still the Gold Standard. Could you explain this statement to me:

"1.Sure can. Many Civy's look at barrel steel and say; "I'm not going to shoot FA so what does it matter?" This is a good question, but the reason why I like the better steel (specifically CMV) is because when I see 4140 used, that is usually a red flag to me that the gun is over gassed and could possibly have an out of spec chamber (more .223 and less 5.56 NATO). So in this case, I am right. This is also a cost cutting measure."

I'll admit I'm over my head in regards to red flag and 4140, I just wonder why 4140 means it is over gassed? Not questioning you, just want to understand and learn more things for future purchases.

You and several others were just as confused. There is no "red flag". 4140 steel does not mean overgassed or out of spec chambers, or that its possible or likely.

Interesting though, I had 17 Colts here, until this morning, and some of them had out of spec chambers straight from Colt yet the barrel steel is not 4140, so I wonder now what color the "flag" should have been for these but I know it would not be gold. All the parts in these were not the same as the Colt military M-4 models either. We are just about finished with our change over to the M&P15OR for our semi-only weapons (yes with 4140 steel). These 17 Colts were destroyed this morning, cut into several pieces and crushed. All of them were a little less than a year and a half old.

4140 is the cheapest steel used in the AR world. It is a cost cutting measure. So when I see this, two concerns always come to mind (being over gassed and having an out of spec chamber). These concerns are based off of YEARS of experience as a professional armorer and having talked to the best armorers in the business.

Warning! What I am about to say will be taken by some as offensive so please read with an open mind!

RRA/BM/Oly/DPMS/S&W, etc all over gas their AR's because they know their main customer base. Meaning that they know the reason why people buy their AR's (because they are cheap). They also know that they are most likely going to shoot the worst (read under pressured) .223 available (Wolf, Tula, etc). This means that the possibility of short stroking is pretty good and is why they over gas their AR's (as they don't want CS calls complaining that their AR's don't run).

What are the down sides of having an AR that is over gassed? Increased felt recoil which equates to slower follow up shots, more debris in the receiver and on the bolt. More energy transferred to wear parts causing a shorter life.

So since this is a S&W forum and most of you own a S&W AR, I would change out your CAR buffer with an H2 buffer (BCM Buffers at G and R Tactical) and every 3K, make sure to change out your buffer spring (BCM Buffer Springs at G and R Tactical)


C4

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It is to professional armorers that work on and repair AR's for a living! I would suggest taking a Dean Caputo AR diagnostics class. He explains all of this in it.

First, Colt makes .223 chambered AR's as well as 5.56 chambered one. So which model were they?

Question for you, how do you know that they were "out of spec?" Which gauge did you use to identify this?

Why would you destroy a Colt AR????



C4

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They were 6920's

I don't need to take any class. We have people here who are armorers certified by Colt. We also have people who are H&K and S&W certified armorers. These people have years of professional experience in weapons design, construction, testing, maintenance, repair, gun smithing, manufacturing, and instructing. The one with the least experience has 20 years of experiece, the rest have more. Some of them have actually worked for or contracted with these arms manufacturers at one time or another. A few of them also have a Picitinny Arsenal background where they worked with this platform, and actually helped develop specs for weapons. None of them has ever said or endorsed that 4140 steel is a "red flag" and means over pressure and out of spec chambers. When I asked some of them about this they said some people think that but overall its not true. These are professional armorers, among other aspects, who work on and repair AR's for a living as well. It is not true that 4140 steel means a weapon is over gassed or has an out of spec chamber. 4140 steel is well suited to semi-auto fire of civilian AR's.

We know they were out of spec because we checked them and Colt verified it.

We destroyed them bacause we do not have a choice. Most all the others we transfered to other agencies. These were the last ones left and no one else wanted them. We are not permitted to keep weapons over alloted inventory numbers, they had been replaced in inventory by the S&W, and our time limit was up to have them transfered elsewhere so we got a directive to destroy them.

Can't be correct. All the internal parts in the 6920's we disposed of were not the same as the M-4 parts, this was verified by Colt.

Per BATF requirements, all manufacturers of semi-auto AR's for the civilian available market are required to make civilian available AR versions internally different from the military version. These changes mostly involve the bolt carrier, hammer, and milling the internal lower receiver slightly different, and of course the rest of the auto related stuff. Colt can not use all the same set of parts for civilian available models as used in the military M-4.

The parts may come from the same manufacturing infrastructure, but there is not only one set of parts.

They may be around $1,000.00 at what you sale them for but the national average ranges $1100 to $1300 depending on where you buy from and the middle of that range is around $1200.00.

I don't profess to know the minds of these manufacturers like you do, but I do know one thing and thats other manufacturers don't have a Colt for other than business reasons. I know this from speaking with them during the selection process to replace our Colts. Why these other companies may have a Colt around also? Not a suprise at all, if I didn't want to upset the bear I would not poke it with a stick either. If a company knows it will either get sued or life made extreamly difficult for them in the market place they will probably not poke the bear and probably not compete for the bears territory. As an example, look at what happened to Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch when they were sued by Colt for, among other things, blurring the distinction between Colt's product and their own when they started going after the civilian and military market with their own M-4 models and Colt claimed they duplicated the look and feel of the Colt. Its the reason why the Heckler & Koch 416 is called the "416" today instead of the "M-4" it was originally called, both Bushmaster and H&K were considered as possible military suppliers for the M-4 to either replace Colt or along with Colt but that was squelched when Colt filed their lawsuit. It cost Bushmaster and H&K millions to fight that lawsuit and they were forced to re-design somewhat, re-market, and re-manufacture somewhat, to "unblur" the distinction costing yet more millions. Other manufacturers learned from that, don't poke the bear.

One of the reasons, among others, some manufacturers keep a Colt for "reference" is to make sure their own product does not duplicate the look and feel of the Colt along with its function specifications, they know what will happen if they get too close and even if they prevail it will still have cost them millions and Colt would still go after them in the market making it extreamly difficult and painful for them. So yep, they purposely make sure they do not duplicate aspects of the Colt and keep a Colt for "reference" for that purpose, and they say nice things about Colt and don't poke the bear. Other manufacturers can't even advertise their weapons as similar to a Colt in the U.S. if anything is close enough to what Colt did even if they may be really be better, without Colts permission or license. The second a manufacturer starts bluring that distinction between their own product and Colts in the market it gets nasty so they don't poke the bear.

So to say Colt is some sort of "Gold Standard" is grosely overstating, its like saying a football team is the undisputed champion when they became that way because they were allowed to handicap the other team in every game. So yeah its easy to be a "Gold Standard" when no one else is allowed to compete fully.

Clue? Hardly, its business plain and simple. Its true that Colt makes a fine weapon but other manufacturers do too.

4140 is less expensive per unit (not necessarily cheaper) than for example 4150, but it is not inferior or lack quality as you imply for semi auto civilian AR weapons. Colt cuts costs also on many of their civilian available models yet keeps their MSRP prices on the average or generally higher than a comparable model from another manufacturer which causes on the average national retail sales to remain higher than comparable models from other manufacturers. They don't pass on the savings from cost cutting to the consumer like other manufacturers may do in their pricing. Yet at the same time they are advertising the Colt "legend" surrounding their involvement in the military platform and using it to suggest in such a manner as to lead people to believe they will get an "original" the same thing as the military models when that is not possible for civilian available AR versions, and the rest is the broad generalizations and opinons from people.

For civilan AR semi-auto fire there is no difference in application between 4140 steel and 4150 steel. 4150 was used in military barrels for its ability to withstand the higher temperatures of prolonged or repeated full auto fire, 4140 performs identically in application to 4150 at semi-auto fire rates and both 4140 and 4150 are equally dense for the application. So although the use of 4140 is less expensive per unit than 4150, its not being "cheap" to use it and it makes perfect sense to do so in relation to market price point and application because its all thats needed for semi-auto fire for civilian AR's, this helps translate to a lower purchase price for the consumer which is something Colt is overall unwilling to do for the consumer.

It is not true that 4140 steel means a weapon is over gassed or has an out of spec chamber, or 4140 is inferior to a steel that may be used by Colt, 4140 steel is well suited to semi-auto fire of civilian AR's.

Something I am curious about; Are you going to continue the sales pitch infomercial by continuing to imply people wasted their money on S&W for one reason or another with broad unqualified generalizations and opinions and they should consider or buy a Colt instead because you happen to sale Colts for around $1,000.00?

C4,
Sweet machine.

Not offended.

I would be one of those customers shooting the worst .223. I would expect then that my Colt 6920 would be short stroking since it is not over gassed?

Dang! I was fixing to go shoot either my Sport or my Colt tomorrow but I stumbled on this thread and read the whole thing and now I'm plumb tired out!

But if I should get up enough energy to visit the range, which of these two rifles should I take? I'm all confused now.

Seriously, I bet I'm like most of the posters who are just shooting these rifles for recreation so in the grand scheme of things, what's all the fuss about?

Of course, I would like to know which rifle is likely to be the most reliable so that if I ever had to use one for "serious" purposes I'd know which one to grab!

I know I've posted these photos of my two "modern sporting rifles" many times but I never get tired of showing them off. Second photo shows the other side of the Colt.

Attached Images

	DSC_0792.jpg (103.3 KB, 23 views)
	DSC_0796.jpg (101.4 KB, 22 views)

C4
Thanks for the explanation. These posts and opinions are very informative.

So you "have people" that know, but it isn't you? Just making things clear. Which 4140 barrel have "your people" examined and found them to not be either over gassed or have an out of spec chamber??? Brand names please.

How did you check? What EXACTLY did you do (or your people do) to verify this?? So when you sent the guns back to Colt to check, why did they send them back to you without fixing them? You said you "destroyed" them. This seems odd to me because they should have been fixed from the factory. Sorry, but something is not making sense here.

Wait, you transferred guns that weren't working properly to other LE agencies to use for duty???



Like which parts?? Exact parts please and then I run this by Colt to validate it and report back.

Yes, that means FA SEAR & FA hammer. Now many companies won't put a FA hammer in a semi-auto gun, but they will sell you this hammer and you can install it into your AR (with no issues from the ATF). The bolt carrier is EXACTLY the same. The lower CAN be identical (less the SEAR hole) if the manufacturer chooses to (like DD, BCM, Noveske, etc).

In regards to Colt, they are stuck with some chitty deals worked out between them and their State so their lowers won't let you use an RDIAS. This has nothing to do with any ATF rules or regs.


I am not familiar with national averages, but I do know what people can jump online and get them for.

Colt is in the business of protecting their share of the market place. All companies do this.

I have never found this the case. It always to reverse engineer and to make sure they are doing things right. I know this for a fact.


Most any AR manufacturer will tell you that they consider Colt to be the standard in the industry. S&W knows it, BCM knows it, etc, etc.

Lot's AR manufacturers make great guns. At the end of the day (when talking about a fighting weapon), Colt is still the standard.



Is it the end of the world if a Civy AR has 4140 steel? Nope. As I have said over and over there is a stronger possibility of another issue though and buyer just needs to be aware of this and do their research.

Really? Do you have any examples of this? As a Colt Commercial Distributor, I cannot say this is true. For the record, I am also a DD and BCM Master Distr. and Colt's pricing is right inline with them.

From what I know (as a Colt Distr. and having personal friends inside of the company), the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA.



I am concerned you haven't been reading what I have written. I am a S&W LE Distr. So I make my living selling S&W products. Truth is, I am a huge fan of S&W so much so that I am typically labeled a "fanboy" for the company on other forums. I have direct input in many of the models you see (M&P MOE, M&P Magpul Edition, SPORT, etc). So no, I don't think ANYONE wasted their money by buying a S&W AR. In fact, they offer some of the best AR's for the money on the market. My main complaint is that they don't make enough of them (as AR sales are 3rd fiddle to them behind revolvers and auto loaders).



C4

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It could. There are many variables here so it would be a case by case type thing.

LMT, for instance, uses the proper gas port size. They advise their customers that they tune their gas ports for M855 and if you get short stroking issues, it is on you.



C4

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Shoot both! :-)

To be honest, I do not own a single "factory" built AR. I prefer to build my own and hand select each and every part. There isn't a spring, detent to screw in my AR that I don't know where it came from. After many years in this industry as an armorer, dealer, consultant and trainer I have come to realization that I don't want a disgruntled, underpaid guy at some company building my AR. YMMV.



C4

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You are welcome Sir. Feel free to PM me if you have a question about anything I have said.



C4

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So? I go to a doctor when I need medical attention, so that means because I didn't know what was wrong that the doctor is wrong too?

In light of some of your posts; So you "have friends" that know, but it isn't you?

So, big deal, yes we have people that work for us - I guess that secret is out now, darn it.

I've noticed on your web site you do not list Colt armorer certification in the list of your qualifications. So in the interest of making things clear, what exactly are your Colt certifications? Or are these things not shown in the qualifications on the web site simply because your web site has not been updated to show these? After all you did say in one post this making it seem like expert opinion:

I never said we sent these last 17 back to the factory did I? Actually Colt offered to replace the weapons in the end, we decided to wait until the selection process was over before making that decision. When the selection process was complete, we did not go with Colt and it did not fit into our plans to have the Colts replaced and still them on hand as we would not be permitted to keep them because we would be over inventory allotment.

Seems odd and doesn't make sense to you? Contrary to your own implied opinon, not everything in the AR world, or many other sectors dealing with AR's, happens with your knowledge or permission even when it comes to Colt.

I never said the weapons we did transfer wern't working properly. I said some of the 17 we had left (these had not been transfered which is why we had them left) had out of spec chambers. Would we have transfered them if someone wanted them? Yes, because Colt would have replaced them before we transfered them so the transfee would have gotten new weapons. There were no takers for them, our time limit was up and we got a directive to destroy them.

If we needed you to validate anything we would have contacted you, good thing we didn't though. Colts own validation was enough, after all they are certified. We don't need a report from you.

So, the BATF requirements have no bearing in this? Hmmm, Yeah... ok. I guess then the BATF will be relieved to know that you have it covered then, on second thought maybe not.


Sure, people can jump on line every day and get decent or better prices by selectively shopping, never said they couldn't.


People in this forum, and the rest of the civilian AR market, are not buying a fighting gun now are they? If another manufacturer had the contract, for example if Bushmaster and/or H&K had also gotten the contract they would be the standard also. The contract is the only reason Colt or anyone else's opinion about Colt can claim Colt to be the "standard" for a fighting weapon. Similiar to like I posted previously, its easy to be a "standard" when no one else is allowed to compete.

After citing your qualifications in such a manner as to make your personal opinion with unqualified statements sprinkled in seem like expert opinion (which is misleading somewhat), its difficult to think that although you did not say it out right that your comments were not anything but trying to say that it was the "end of the world" if 4140 steel was used.

Oh gee whiz. That answers a lot.

Hmmmm. nope, This is what you said: "I will tell you that Colt only has ONE assembly line. They also only have ONE set of parts. So a Military issued M4 gets the same parts as a 6920 (less the 14.5 barrel and auto sear)."

You did not say "the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA"

1. There is not only "one set of parts".

2. The 6920 does not use all the same parts as the military issued M4 and there can not be only one set of parts (exclusive of considering, since you mentioned it, the 14.5 barrel and auto sear.)

3. No, the consumer is not getting a Colt civilian available AR that is the same as the M4, or a civilian available AR that is "TDP following, mil-spec weapon". It may be true that the general TDP or mil-spec parameters are applied in some general aspect (e.g. materials...) because after all the Colt civilian available AR is produced in the same general manufacturing infrastructure, but the civilian available Colt AR is not a mil-spec AR.

Its correct that Colt parts, in a general sense, may use some of the same parts as the military M4 in the 6920 at times. However, it is not correct, in the specific, that all parts are the same between the M4 and the 6920. Sometimes you may find an M4 part directly applied in a 6920, we had a few that had a few parts that were M4 parts but did not have all the same internal parts as the M4 (not considering the auto fire stuff), and all of the 6920's we had did not have the few M4 parts those few had.


Don't be concerned at all. I read every word you wrote, and so did a few other people.

Oh, now S&W's are some of the best AR's on the market? Previously you implied they have a short life span, used 4140 steel, and a whole slew of other things, in your presented "expert" opinion which didn't seem to bear out your statements now that they are some of the best AR's on the market. How odd and to use your words, "Sorry, but something is not making sense here."

I'll let you go find someone else to play sales games with because this is getting out of hand. It is greatly offensive that you would imply and express we would purposely endanger the lives of fellow law enforcement officers by intentionally transfering weapons to them that were not working properly.

Firsthand information is king where I come from. When it is second or third hand there are usually details missing.

We have not updated our training resume in years. Sorry, I was not aware that it was required.


They didn't work. So I would assume you would send them back (as they are under warranty).


Got it.



How did they validate them? Did you send them back to Colt and they told you? Originally you stated that YOUR PEOPLE verified that they were out of spec. I asked you how you did this. To date, no info has been provided. Were you planning on answering this question?



In this instance, none. I am a 07/02 and am quite familiar the law. What you are saying is that manufacturers cannot use FA components into a Civy AR15. This is correct, but is really only one part (auto sear) and possibly a FA hammer (not seen a ruling on this though). They can have the following;

1. FA BCG
2. Lower that will accept an RDIAS
3. FCG pin size of .154

I don't know what they are buying their AR's for. I would assume that everyone that buys an AR has in the back of the mind that they COULD use it to defend themselves.

Much like winning the Gold medal in the Olympics, it sets you apart from the other competitors. While they may be good, they are not the "GOLD" standard.

Many companies compete against Colt. One off the top of my head is BCM. They follow the TDP as closely as they can and basically duplicate what Colt does. This is why they make some of the best AR's on the planet. So your idea that companies cannot follow what Colt does is an incorrect assumption.






If you are going to nitpick over wording then I will be as exact as possible from now on.

1. There is one set of parts. The two main parts that do not come in a 6920 (for example) is a FA hammer and a sear. The hammer that Colt does use is correct in every other way (surface hardness, phosphating, etc). These parts cannot come into the gun because of the law. So it’s not that Colt is trying to give the consumer a "lessor" product in any way shape or form.

2. You can actually get the 14.5" barrel (as a factory registered SBR LE6921). Yes, Civy's cannot get the sear, but LE can. So then we would have an identical weapon (RO977).

3. The only way to get a TRUE M4 is to enlist in the Military or work for an LE agency. This is all true and everyone knows it. The differences between the two though are SO miniscule that to argue about one or two parts simply blows my mind. It is like having a car that is able to race in NASCAR, but since it doesn't have the roll cage, it is somehow less quality.






I am back to being concerned about your ability to read what I write and comprehend it. What I said was; BEST AR FOR THE MONEY. There is no denying that the SPORT (for instance) is a fantastic value. Is it the best AR on the market? No, it is not IMHO.


No idea who is selling anything. What is happening is that you fail to answer questions (like on how you verified the chambers on the 6920's were out of spec, which 4140 barrels have you personally seen that had the proper gas port size and chamber dims). You got caught making statements that you simply cannot back up. Own up to it or provide proof.

On top of this, you want to take basically one or two parts (that don't appear in a 6920 or 6921) and say that they ENTIRE gun is not built to the TDP. This is the dumbest thing I think I have ever heard.


C4

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