First Post From the gun loving Liberal State of California: Be Gentle!

I live on a small ranch over the hill from Oakland, California where we can shoot/hunt. Looking for my first AR15.
I work at a bank, have 6 head cattle, chickens, 10 misc guns, and 2 years supply of food (dehydrated) with a 25 year shelf life. O yea, I love drinking beer!

Money for a gun is always a concern, however I have some wiggle room to go up a bit in price. Since this is my first AR15, I probably wouldn't Mod it out too much (don't want it too heavy). I will be using the gun for plinking at 100 yards and will probably add a inexpensive optic or scope. This would be my main weapon of choice if the big one comes and zombies are coming over the hill trying to rob me or steal my chattel (personal property).

I am actually open to a build as I see value in the pride and joy aspect of it. My weakness is I am very impatient and I wanted my new toy yesterday!

As a footnote, we have a property in Arizona, so this gun may find its way to AZ and I would have to make it Arizona compliant!!!!!!!

I already bought 25 boxes of 55 grain PMC from Cabaela's (heck of sale going on now) in anticapation of my purchase.

All guns will be CA Legal and have a bullet button.

My choices are:
SP15 MP SPort to my door for $663.00 ($556.00 online)
SP15 MP to door $883.00 ($750 online) (or $850.00 online for SP15 MOE Earth)
Colt 6920 for $1090 to door ($950.00 online)
PSA Build for $928 to door ($800.00 online)
**if you know of a better price, please tell me.

There you have it. I have been to a few boards and get the fanboys perspective as well as the folks who find the entry level Sport more than satifactory for their needs. I am open to a build, but don't understand it completely yet as a newbie. I do get the lower comes through an ffl with tax and their might be savings on the upper and other mod's.

Pro's & Con's: Sport is a great price and would get me a fine shooting entry level no frills AR15. If I upgraded in the future, I would have two AR15's!

6920 would be like having a pretty girlfriend on your arm. I totally understand "you get what you pay for!!!"

PSA would be a better gun for less and I would learn so much and have pride in my baby that I created. But do I really want to take the time to learn how to build one NOW.

SPMP15 MOE. Just looks cool in the Earth Color and furniture. I know it's a solid gun, but than for only $200 more...


Thanks. I will be making my decision tomorrow (Monday)

6920. They are still the gold standard, and priced right at this time.

I'd advise 5.56 instead of the .223 you bought. It gives you a little more power. That simply translates into the same terminal performance at slightly longer ranges.

I pretty much buy all all M193.
Wideners has Privi M193 Mil Spec for close to the same $0.30 per round you bought your PMC.

Wideners used to have the Izzy IMI M193 largely regarded as the best Ball ammo, but you missed it with the election stocking up going on.

I love both my Aimpoint Micro's and a recently acquired Aimpoimt Patrol Optic. Add white light and you are there.

Oh, P Mags and buy more ammo while you can.

Emory

Pay the extra $200 for the MOE. If that rifle is your go to weapon in case things get bad you want a forward assist and bolt cover (lots of sand in Arizona). Its a great rifle and will serve you well.

Out of the ones you listed, I'd go Colt 6920, which I do have 1st hand experience with. The M&P15 Sport sounds like a great machine, accurate, reliable, etc. and priced right. Sounds to me like price is less of a concern to you. That being the case, think resale value with the Colt 6920 having plenty more buyers.

My go to is a build I did with a Colt 6940 upper. Free floating monolithic upper, fold down front sight on gas block. Those 2 features put in in primary position, relegating the 6920 w/ quad rail to 2nd place, for me personally. The 6940 seems extremely accurate for an M4.

Don't forget about the 6720, which is lighter. Often, it becomes a favorite especially as a walk-around type of outfit. Seen several of those recently <$975.

If money is more of a consideration, then I go all the way down to the M&P15 Sport as it will put the same smile on your face as the Colt. With your eyes closed, you probably won't be able to tell the difference.

Great feedback gents, thanks.
Turns out my neighbor built three and offered to assist which is a game changer.
Any recommendations on a lower?

[QUOTE
I already bought 25 boxes of 55 grain PMC from Cabaela's (heck of sale going on now) in anticapation of my purchase.
[/QUOTE]

The Colt 6920, and I suspect some of your other choices, has a 1-7" twist barrel, and while some writeups say that it's made to shoot 55 grain loads such as the M193 ball load my experience at the range tells me that fast twist and 55 grain bullets don't get along. Of interest is a blog at the following link that discusses M193 vs M855. In short it says that inside 100 yards M193 is better. It appears that you plan on shooting primarily under 100 yards so M193 may be the way to go for you. But in my experience the quality of the ammo is a significant factor in how your rifle will perform.

:: Ammo Oracle

Don't be surprised if your PMC ammo doesn't give you the performance you are looking for. If not, use it for your fast and close drills. Take the time to sample a wide variety of ammo to see what performs best in your gun, then buy it in quantity from some source like ammoman.com. I just checked their website and they are selling 420 rounds of Federal M855 (62 grain) for $219 delivered and 840 rounds for $399 delivered. They have 1000 rounds of Russian Wolf 55 grain ammo for $179 delivered. Wolf is getting better as time goes on and now is widely used for practice by the professionals I train with. Take your time, try a lot of different types in your gun and select and use what it likes.

Oh, and buy one already built. In the long run you will not only save money, but will be more satisfied with the results.

Keith

Once you start building AR's they start breeding in your basement.

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WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

This is 100% true. Whether or not it is a bad thing is a point of discussion/contention...

I prefer to roll my own. Put the trigger you want in from the get go. Put the furniture you like on it, oversized mag release, ambi safety, enhanced trigger guard, captive trigger pins, all options that are pretty standard on my builds...

I did go with the Colt 6940 upper due to its specific features.

Don't worry about what's engraved on the stripped lower. If it is mil-spec then it should be GTG.

Concerning rate of twist and bullet weights.
I'm no expert. However I've shot 1 MOA, five shot groups, @ 200 yards with Federal AAE .223 through a Colt 6920 with 6X Leopold scope.

Emory

Get the Colt 6920.

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You do what you are.

I choked on the Colt Koolade years ago,left a bad taste in my mouth. I'd go one up from the Sport and go M&P AR15 T. Already free float,forward assist,dust cover fold down sights are good enough and it's easy to add a scope or what ever add-ons you like Is melinite with a 1-8 5R barrel. Great shooter and reasonable price. Myself I'd go for a Rock River if you want a builder down the road. You can build what you want from the ground up.

Daniel Defense M4V3 or V7. They go for around 1400 to 1500 online. Probably more than you want to spend but they are one tough rifle. Much lighter than the 6920 too. I've had the Colt's and and M&P. Daniels are twice the gun. A quality investment.

+1 for Daniel Defense or building your own. I couldn't find exactly what I wanted in a complete rifle so I built mine own, twice so far and I have a bare CMMG stripped Mk3 .308 lower ready for another build, that ones going to cost a little more though

Good Responses guys...Thank you.
Maddmax, great response - thanks. Did you mean buy complete, or build a Rock River from the ground up?

I must confess I am torn between going inexpensive with the Sport ($650 to my door in California) ...Or spending a little more for more rifle.

Still contemplating...no one has asked me, but Quantico Tactical is where the great deal is right now with a Military Discount.

I forgot to mention I have an M4V3 Daniel Defense, however, my go to rifle for when the stuff hits the westinghouse is my Springfield Armory M1A. Nothing beats .30 cal. when you need to reach out and touch something.

Well,
What complete lower and upper would you recommend?
thanks

Because this is your first AR15, I advocate buying a complete rifle from a single manufacturer so that there is no ambiguity in warranty coverage. One claim, one manufacturer, no complications.

IMO take a look at one of the new M&P 15 Mid-Lengths or the 15-Sport, whichever one fits your budget better. The 15 Mid-Length has that oh so en-vogue mid-length gas system, dust cover, & forward assist. The 15-Sport is the epitome of AR light weight efficiency, foregoing the dust cover & forward assist.

What you do want is what both rifles have in common: the barrel. The S&W Melonite treated, Thompson Center 1:8 5R rifled barrel is the gem.

After you buy the complete factory rifle & get some experience with the platform, then go and piece together an AR15 from parts. You'll have earned more experience & background knowledge to assess the cost/value of the endless variety of AR15 parts out there.

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-John

Not on the list you gave, but as something to consider, if you can get to a Dicks Sporting goods (I checked, they are in CA such as Modesto, etc) they are the exclusive dealer at the moment of a Troy Defense Carbine.

My shooting buddy just got one and I think its about the best deal going at the moment of quality parts in a pre-built package. 16in melonite lined (like some S&W M&P15's), 1n7 twist barrel; Troy Alpha free float tube handguard with flip up sight; Troy flip up rear sight; Troy Medieval flash suppressor (maybe different in CA, don't know your laws?); MP Bolt; extractor upgrade kit; Troy grip & stock. Basically a whole lot of mods that other people pick as desirable replacements for what comes on budget AR's. Depending on store and sales they are in the $1099 range, and you can open a Dicks credit card and get 10% off.

The Troy Defense website has the details.

If sticking to the ones you listed I'd do the Colt or a S&W. I have a S&W MOE thats about 2 or 3 years old and it runs like a champ. I HATE cleaning guns and have about 500+ rounds through it since cleaning it and not a single hiccup.

I'm in the middle of my first full build....a 12in barrel AR pistol. While you get to pick your parts, the costs sure do add up quick if you start buying better quality parts piece by piece. (funny how a steal on a barely used barrel grew into a pricey full build before I knew it....) And while self building with your buddy should be easy, there's a lot to be said about having your first AR come all pre-built as a package with a warranty.

Whatever you decide, enjoy.

Thank JaPes and Longhorn90 for the thoughtful posts.
I find out tomorrow if the online retailer is going to make the MP Sport CaLegal for me. I will check out the Troys now (online)

Modesto is the closest Dick's and that carbine is pimped out sweet! I found some posts in other forums from folks who bought one recently for 1k.

Choices, choices...

What JaPes said. Love my Sport and I've had no issues with it. It all depends on what you're comfortable spending on an AR-15.

I'd pick up a factory build for all of the reasons already expressed above. Once you have your first one, then you can add the second one as a build it as you want it, from the ground up. Then you can start on your third...

Hog

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Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

For a first rifle, my vote is to get the sport. Mine is now just over 10,000 rounds, and no issues. I'ts accurate. Dust does not screw it up (Went thru the biggest sandstorm in like 20 yrs in Az. last year while 'yote hunting. No problems, though it looked pretty horrible!
You get a solid LT warranty. You will find out things you might want different, at which time you either build an upper to suit, or buy/ build a whole other rifle. You will find that no amount of money makes for a rifle that is quicker, or more accurate than any other in the AR platform when used as the doctor ordered.
If you are looking to hit dinner plates at 400yds, then you have a lot to consider besides just a couple of carbines. You will need to look to other rifles designed to stretch their legs a lot.
If you do not like the sport after say 6 months and 2k rounds? I'll buy it off you for what you paid for it.

"SPMP15 MOE. Just looks cool in the Earth Color and furniture."

Get it!!! $850 plus a $200 3-9X scope. You're set for $1,050 and have a rifle that “looks cool”. If you don't need the earth color, then it's even better – save $100. You will own a rifle that you have some emotion in even before, or without, modding up.

It's good that you stated your intended role for the gun in your post.

Because your purpose is for plinking out to 100 yards, but also self defense (possibly in the confines of the home), prevailing wisdom (and my personal experience) is that an M4 barrel configuration is the better way to go. It offers a slightly lighter rifle, but the shorter barrel makes it easier to handle around corners in the home. Accuracy difference out to 100 yards between the 14.5/7 barrel and a 16" barrel is nil, and there's no appreciable difference in terminal ballistics either.

I agree with the post that suggests a .556 chamber over a .223, but more for the reason of flexibility in ammo choice, more so than velocity. Another consideration is barrel twist - I recommend a 1:7 or 1:9 so you can stabilize heavier bullets and likewise choose from a wider variety of ammunition.

If this is your first AR, I would suggest you buy a pre-built upper, and only tackle the (easier) lower, as it doesn't require special tools other than what you probably already have at home. The upper build requires special tools (clamp/vise, wrench, etc.) which would mean that whatever you save by building your own is going to be spent on tools, unless you happen to know someone in the neighborhood who already has them. There's a lower receiver builder's guide at AR15.com which you'll probably find very useful. It's what I used when putting mine together.

My standard paradigm when making this sort of decision is "buy it once, buy it right", or stated another way, "buy the best you can afford". You have a real good choice there with the PSA or Colt, and though it might be a little more "expensive" now, the temporary pleasure of a lower price is far outweighed by the long term pain of lower quality. By the way, I put the word expensive in quotes because it's a relative term - just because someone sells something for half of what the market value is doesn't mean that the other choices are overpriced.

Even if you have to spend a bit more now, remember that one of the really great things about the AR platform is that if you ever decide that you wish to change the configuration, you can simply buy a different upper, and do so WITHOUT A NICS CHECK, since only the lower receiver is tracked by ATF, unless your state's laws vary, of course. Just bolt it on and go.

You might also look at these makers, who are popular with the AR15.com crowd:
Rock River
CMMG
DPMS
Armalite

Hope this helps!

Ground up. It had a 20" barrel to start.

Maybe next summer, we should have a build-off. Set a budget limit. Maybe set some sort of build constraints, total build weight not to exceed, etc.

That would be interesting to see what gets built because it would be an insight into each of our individual approaches & build focus.

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-John

I've recently been helping a sibling spec an AR that will be built by Wilson Combat (pricey, but superb ...) I dropped by the shop at Accuracy Speaks to have some pistol sights installed, and bumped into Derek Martin, AR guru, and asked his recommendation for a general-purpose rate of rifling twist. His reply: "One in nine will stabilize anything that will fit in the magazine." So, that's the spec I recommended, especially as I anticipate that 55gr projectiles will be the preferred choice...

6920---------- best bang for the buck.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?...jFwPrgTA&gid=5

Buy the Colt - there is no AR that holds value better than a Colt.

I have a S&W MP15OR that I have customized a bit. When I decided I wanted a .22 LR AR (in addition to our S&W 15-22) I started with a CMMG lower and built from there (mainly CMMG stuff). I got the M&P15OR because it was a fantastic deal that I could not pass up and have been very happy with it. It is great fun to "build your own", and I really enjoyed that. The lower is really simple; uppers do require a bit more specialty tools.

Since you mention your neighbor has built several ARs and is willing to help, I bet he has all needed tools. If you want to go that route, I think you will have fun.

Colt for whatever reasons, is seen a the "gold standard", and will have better resale than most others if you decide ARs are not for you. I think most agree that they are well made weapons.

Twist rate, 1:9, 1:8, 1:7? We could argue all day, no week, actually there have been threads that go on for years. I can NOT speak expertly on that subject, but can say that the 1:9 twist in my M&P15OR with 55 gr loads will shoot about 1 MOA at 100 yards when I do my part (with isn't that often).

My 15OR and it's twin CMMG .22LR:

CBT240,
Nice pic's and great post - thank you.

I appreciate everyone's feedback.

fyi: Dicks Sportings Good throughout California is out of stock on Troys Defense Carbon!
I am working with Quantico Tactical to get me a MP Sport ($566), but the online store does not have the Sport but has a more expensive T or PS for $1,000.
I was attracted by the low price and entry level price of the Sport. Even open for the MP15 MOE if I can find a Super Good Deal.

In any event, I am enjoying the shift in paradigm from my normal day to day bla bla. Shopping for an assault rifle is kind of exciting.

Thanks for all the replies. Keep em coming.

OK, so I just looked at The Chart. Has anyone bothered to compare Colt to other manufacturers listed on The Chart? I'm not seeing much, if any, differences. HPT, MPI, almost all say 100% or ALL.

Can someone point out a superior feature of the Colt on The Chart?

Oh god not the chart...if you want a 6920 I can hook you up with a trade in for $600, in really nice shape. I know quite a few people that have bought em', H-Bar and all. If you want something accurate get something else. I am happy with my sport. Shoots better than I do on most days and on the others it is still less than 1 moa. The colts do very well at 2 moa rifles. Most of us Sport Owners arent going to waste our time trying to convince someone who considers the colt the end all. Just remember they do not hold their resale value or we wouldnt have the ability to buy them for $600, in fact the same guy sells trade in Bushmasters for $675. After shooting the colt I bought something with more accuracy namely my Sport!

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Grover Oathkeeper

I have never understood the "resale value" argument....I never sell a gun!

Sure, a used Colt should sell at a higher price than a used M&P 15 Sport, but maybe, just maybe, because they cost more in the first place! I'm willing to bet that the percentage off from new sale price would be real close, no matter which brand you go with.

The M&P 15T is one I would be interested in, but not at the $1000 price point, depending on model. If it is the old model T, with the Troy rail and Troy flip up sites, then that sounds about right on price. If it is the new model T, with Magpul sites, then I think it is too high. The new model T is basically a Sport, with a dust cover, forward assist, and quad rail. The barrel, BCG, and lower are all the same as the Sport.

The Chart lists wanna be Mil-Spec rifles. S&W's unless you get into the LEO or Military lines are Modern Sporting Rifles, so the "Chart" is just something some people use to justify their expense of too much money. These are the same people and manufacturers that are tied to a set of 50 year old Metallurgical and Engineering standards that harken back to a time of "3 on the tree" transmissions and big old dial telephones. Eventually you have to wake up and realize just because they have always made them this way doesn't make them the best that they can be. They really are being produced to "antique" standards.

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Grover Oathkeeper

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...=2&output=html

However, there is some wisdom to adhering to those 50-year-old Mil-spec standards for the ability to replace a damaged part anytime, anywhere, from any vendor.

Regarding the Colt, if they're still using their (proprietary) different diameter pins, that's something to consider in favor of another maker, for the same reasons why Mil-spec parts are generally favored among AR enthusiasts.

By the way, there's a danger in relying too much on that chart. AR makers move with the market and change features and materials to keep up with competition. For example, my CMMG M4 has a 4150 barrel and the bolt is MPI tested, so the information contained there is not universally accurate (depending on the model number) because vendors make more than one sort of configuration. For example, CMMG has made two or three different M4 uppers over time. Therefore the chart should not be relied upon exclusively without confirming whether or not it applies to the particular model of the one you might be looking for.

Thanks again for the good posts: very good reading.

I spoke with QT and though the online store will not ship me Sport (no cal legal and can not put the $8 bullet button on), the San Diego Store is willing to ship one to me. they also have the SPMPP15 MOE for $950 plus tax - $100 mail inrebate.
Thus
$673 for the Sport to my door or
$1003 for the MPP Moe (dark earth) to my door.
I'm thinking Sport for my first AR15.

I am very sure this is my current narrowed choice and will pull the trigger in the morning.
Is there reason why I should spend that much more for the MOE?
Thanks all

It's only a matter of time and the clock is picking up speed.

Those types of things are discussed here.
NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

Top of this page you will see he says " Trust, but verify, is in effect and as always, caveat emptor."

Lot of people on here just seem to not want to hear that Smith and Wesson is not the "be all and end all"....

NONE of them are. There are lots of differences that you can see looking at that chart, especially if you are new to the platform. You can get a kind of feel for what you are buying and learn at the same time.

It's only too bad that Smith and DPMS ( cough cough) won't pony up their super top secret info. We ALL know how great DPMS are!

Good lord the "Colt" parrots have come out.

1st Time AR Buyer: What AR should I buy?

Colt Parrot: Buy a Colt.

1st Time AR Buyer: Why?

Colt Parrot: Because it holds it's resale value.

The position in support of Colt that a Colt will retain it's resale value inherently implies that a new manufacture Colt AR15 is a rifle that most do not hold onto for the long term. It will help you cut your losses when you finally realize it's not the one you want, and you go buy the one you should have bought to begin with.

1st Time AR Buyer: What AR should I buy?

Colt Parrot: Buy a Colt.

1st Time AR Buyer: Why?

Colt Parrot: Because it's mil-specs.

The supporting stance that a Colt is better because it's mil-specs isn't relevant in the civilian modern sporting rifle. Mil-specs is a minimum standard for use in the military. As civilians, we don't need to constrain a manufacturer to mil-spec.

I'm a civilian. I can't own an M4. An M4 is a select fire firearm. All I can own is a semi-auto. Why do I need to pay the extra $$$ for full-auto capable components when I'll never be able to go full auto? Can the cost differential between military use / civilian use be put towards civilian market innovations that are better than their mi-spec cousins?

*SIGH*

The AR15 platform is built upon a foundation of standardized dimensions. Differences in manufacturing processes, component materials, non-standard compatible parts & accessories combine to make an AR15 infinitely customizable.

Employ your critical thinking skills. Separate credible information from unsupported bovine excrement. Question the credibility of the source.

Buy an AR15 that floats your boat. If the prancing pony roll mark gives you the warm fuzzies at night, buy it. If saving money by buying a competitive priced AR15 floats your boat, buy it. If a DIY job is your thing, do it.

MY OPINION:

There are so many different companies assembling AR15 rifles. Most of those companies source components from the same group of suppliers, then apply their roll marks.

Educate yourself in the differences in the components. That way you can judge a rifle by the sum of its parts and not the roll mark on the receiver.

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-John

CBA44, I asked a very simple question - "Can someone point out a superior feature of the Colt on The Chart?" PLEASE, tell me about some of these "lots of differences" that make the Colt superior that you see on The Chart, but I can't seem to find.

Look dudes,

ARMALITE AR-15(t) or AR-10(t)


Best deal even on the net.

1" M.O.A. guaranteed

1000-1200 clams.

Colt lulz...

Screw Colt ridiculous mark up.

Yes, but the question was asked here among us, though I'm sure the OP appreciates the link to that site - it's a great reference. Caveat Emptor is sound advice on any day.

If you're referring to my post, it's clear you mis-read my meaning. What I was saying is that the Colt has, in times past, NOT used standard sized parts (which I refer to as Mil-Spec, since that term refers to both material and dimensions), and THAT minimum standard of being able to replace a broken or missing trigger group pin can mean the difference between a gun that works and a paperweight.

Regarding build materials relative to the MilSpec, I think we're saying the same thing. It's alright - in fact preferable - to have a rifle that meets or exceeds the MilSpec minimum standard. But it's NOT alright in my view to have one with pins that are a proprietary dimension.

As to the M4 term, I don't think anyone here was confused by that, or the difference between SemiAuto and Class 3, but I'm perfectly willing to accommodate your point by referring to my rifle (and others of its kind) as an M4gery.

Stebo, are you speaking to only the manufacturers listed on the chart, or are you speaking to S&W vs. manufacturers listed?

If it is S&W, depending on the model, there are several boxes that S&W can't mark yes in. Now, having said that, the question in my mind though is "does it matter?"

So my S&W uses 4140 vs 4150 CMV...Does that matter when I am not shooting full auto, therefore not heating the barrel as much and not subjecting it to the same use?

S&W uses a semi auto BCG...Again, so? I am shooting semi auto, does it matter?

S&W uses 1:9 barrel twist on many rifles, and the chart calls for 1:7...If shooting 55gr primarily, do you really need the faster twist?

The chart is an ok guide, if used correctly, but keep in mind your intended use for the firearm. Many items on the chart may be necessary for a military use firearm, but they may not apply to typical civilian use.

Look a little harder. SOME of them were mentioned in the post right before this one.

No sir. Not referring to your post. I'm responding to ubiquitous "Buy a Colt" general rationale. I get irked because I see it all too often.

Sir, you found the words that I could not last night. I want standardized dimensions. It makes life easier.


I don't like M4gery. It has a negative connotation.

Those with experience know that there is a difference between an AR 15 and an M16/M4. I like the latest label applied to the Civilian AR15, "Modern Sporting Rifle". That's what it is for me. A bonus is that if the term goes mainstream, the AR15 becomes thought of as a sporting rifle not a tactical or assault rifle. It negates the "sporting purposes" criteria that the gun control advocates bandy about.

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-John

Stebo, are you speaking to only the manufacturers listed on the chart, or are you speaking to S&W vs. manufacturers listed?

cyphertext,

We occasionally see a thread in which the poster asks for advice on which weapon to buy. Invariably there are several responses touting Colt superiority, and a Colt fanboy pointing to The Chart to justify the superior claim.

OK, I went to The Chart. Here's what I see - the Colt is industry standard. I look at the chart and if I can't see the manufacturer's name to the left, cannot tell one from the other. The standards listed are nearly identical from one manufacturer to the next.

There is NOTHING on The Chart that makes the Colt stand out as superior, or even just a little better.

I'm looking at The Chart right now. Take Stag, for example. They used to manufacture for S&W. The only difference between Stag and Colt is barrel steel. Stag lists 4150, Colt and 6 others lists 11595E Certified. 11595E Certified is just that, a certification. Colt is till using 4150.

But I can be convinced if some Colt fanboy will just tell me what I'm missing on The Chart. I've asked CBA44 twice now to point out something in The Chart that demonstrates Colt superiority, and he hasn't. In fact, that's not a fair question to ask, because he obviously can't demonstrate Colt superiority using The Chart.

Maybe the Colt is a superior weapon, maybe it once was a few years ago but no longer. Maybe Colt fanboys are living in the past. This seems to me a very mature industry, and it's very difficult to differentiate from one manufacturer to the next in the same price range.

I'm still waiting to be convinced of the Colt superiority

I know I am just a newbie torturing myself emotionally on which AR15 to buy...
But I want my post back on topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for posting the chart, I did look at it. I have seen it appear in may other forums. After I looked at it, I closed it. And to be honest with everyone (as 48 year old banker rancher type from Northern California who likes to drink beer), I didn't really give it another thought. Maybe it struck a chord with other folks looking, just not with me. Again, thanks for posting it.

So I tried pulling the trigger on the SP MP Sport From Quanitco Tactical Yesterday and at the last minute the San Diego store informed me that the advertised price is for non Ca Legal guns and for a Ca Legal gun 811038 the Sport would be $90 more. F&%*king B#@$%ARDS. Maybe it was an honest mistake, or maybe not, But I don't Like that kind of BS.

Moving on, I found the Sportmansoutdoor has one for $619 with free shipping, so I will see how it goes as I am calling when I finish writing this.