The first few S&W M&P15 I bought had chrome lined barrels.

I've noticed lately that none of the barrels that S&W was putting out on the Civilian Models was chrome lined.

I won't have a AR that is not a Stainless Barrel or a Chrome Lined Barrel and Chamber. For me its a matter of ease of extraction on my guns.

Anybody else have any comments on this???

Rule 303

To each his own. My Sport with a melonite barrel has been totally trouble free and seems to have an accuracy advantage over some of the rifles with chrome barrels.

I've heard nothing but good things about the melonite barrels. Mine is milspec chrome, but many feel the melonite is actually superior.

What do you want a comment on? You've all ready made up you mind and i'm pretty sure you have no knowledge of Melonite treating. While my M&P is chrome lined, I'd take a Melonite barrel with out hesitation. Melonite has proven it's self. I believe it's been around since the 50's or 60's. The following link may give you some understanding of nitrocarburizing.

Sent from my DROIDX

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Melonite also has way more lubricity than hard Chrome. Under Notable thread index read "Barrel Specs for Sport" You will find out that in independent engineering studies that it surpasses any form of Chrome in every category. So open up your mind and come into the 21st Century.

I am posting the link for you. Happy Reading
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...ecs-sport.html

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Grover Oathkeeper

Don't know your time in the Army and when. On the early M-16's you COULDN'T leave a round in the barrel over night in V-N in the jungle heat and humidity. You had one heck of a time extracting it if you did. Chrome did help fix that problem...

Read up on the melonite. It will surprise you. THAT is what brought me back into the Modern Sporting Rifles along with S&W's reputation. I was a DEVOTED Colt pony hater until I came to the light and saw a whole new world and jumped in. That and all the fine people here in the know.

I agree concerning chrome lining.

For my money an AR barrel will be chrome lined because I like the way chrome cleans, wears, and its mil-spec. Can't see any reason to change what has proven to work well, and after tens of thousands of rounds fired chrome has worked for me.

Would be surprised if melonite isn't cheaper to produce, hence its use in lower tier rifles.

In case you havent noticed. Mellonite or a Tennifer process is available on or standard production for many top tier companies. Chrome lining was good for its day and it is still better than plain steel barrels. But it is old technology. With the same line of thought that keeps some people locked into the chrome lining, I thought you would also expect them to be using a Commodore 64 to post threads and comments.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Actually, what I have noticed is that the highest tech military in world history (ours) issues chrome lined barrels. To me, that makes chrome "top tier" and everything else less than mil-spec standard, even if someone on a web forum proclaims it to be "old technology".

Its still somewhat of a free country though. We can all buy what we want.

And That, my friends, is how we ended up with this administration in office now!

Actually "mil-spec" is just the lowest standard the DOD will accept. Ther is nothing "top tier" about it.
It's called the "mil-spec is better than everthing else" myth. Otherwise specops would be using issue 92's and M4's, instead of other "top tier" custom, mission specific equipment.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

The mil-spec details everything from design drawings to materials, to inspection criteria, to performance standards. It is intended to provide a system that meets design standards for a particular use, in this case a reliable infantry combat carbine. To say the contract goes to the lowest bidder is a bit misleading. It goes to the lowest bidder that can meet the mil-spec standard that ensures a proper quality end product. As a taxpayer, that is the way I'd prefer the system to work.

For more info: http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/mil...71186_(AR).pdf

Interestingly, I believe S&W uses 4140 steel (spec is 4150) and my 811000 doesn't have the proper barrel markings for chrome lining (S&W says it is) or magnetic particle inspection. The "CMP" is markings are strangely missing. The bolt does have the "MP" markings denoting a magnaflux inspection. Go figure.

Oh BTW, the link you posted is NOT the whole ball of wax. What you really want is the Technical Data Package (TDP). It's proprietary, so it's unlikely you'll find it anywhere on the internet.

MIL-SPEC = A document that describes the essential technical requirements for purchased materiel that is military unique or substantially modified commercial items. MIL-STD-961 covers the content and format for defense specifications.

AND

However, the proliferation of standards also has some drawbacks. The main one is that they impose what is functionally equivalent to a regulatory burden upon the defense supply chain, both within the military and across its civilian suppliers. Almost nothing can be done according to sound case-by-case judgment, and almost everything requires constant, extensive study of the rules and verification that they are being followed "to a T". Workflows frequently pause (causing snowballing schedule delays) for reasons that are sometimes essentially trivial, and unit costs rise.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Thanks for making this point. That is pretty much what is needed for the production of something as important as an issue combat carbine.

Have you ever shot real combat carbines...you know they look nice and pretty sitting there in the Armory, Depending upon your situation is whether you can customize it or not. Mostly not. You are right they will shoot, and they will do it in the direction you want them too. But they are not near as nice as mine nor near as accurate. The thread started out with some person making a flat statement that He wouldn't own anything without a chrome chamber and Chrome lined barrel. And now it is drifting off into milspec and tdp and ladedadedaaa! Its a dead horse we have beaten it into the dirt more than a few times. Some people require mil-spec and some eat, breathe and live the TDP, some of us just happen to like our Sporting Rifles without all the BS, our rifles are not constrained to a dated set of materials and procedures. I have run my Sports enough now to know, through select fire hardware in my lower and lets go to war. But that's not what its for. So to each their own!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Oh boy here we go again.

BTW I like my underwear mil spec. The mil spec tread count and stitching specifications keeps me from chafing.

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-John

I like the dancing pony in the back on the waist band.

Oh darn, I just realized, if only NASA was mil-spec we would NOT have had the Challenger disaster!

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Oh darn, I just realized, that is possibly the dumbest statement I've seen on a web forum in some time.

Your very welcome, just trying to help. It's to bad that out of all that I have expressed to you that that is the ONLY piece of information you have gleaned from it...

Really no more ignorant that your postings on "mil-spec". I believe that is termed the pot calling the kettle black. I take it you have no concepts of analogies or abstract examples.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Yeah, your statement really was ignorant since it was: A/ totally out of context for the topic at hand, B/ chrome lining really is the spec for military rifle barrels.

You've earned you a spot on my ignore list. Time spent arguing with people like you is a waste of time. Adios.

I could not have asked for anymore!

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Um is milspec underwear characterized by tighter elastic, or same tension but with longer service time?

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part-time ninja...

It's tighter thread count to keep the boys happy The elastic is heat sensitive and conforms to your actual body size to keep best blood flow for circulation between the upper and lower half of your body. The tighter thread count is also heat sensitive for winter and summer wear. In hot summer months it expands almost like netting for air flow keeping body heat lower. In winter it contracts to a thinner thread count to keep body heat in. It is also self cleaning and repells skid marks in the aft section. It's also reversable and has a half life of 32 years. Biodegradable if left in direct sunlight for 72 minutes and 7 seconds.

Actually, its the 4150 steel, hard chromed cup that really pays big dividends for extreme use.

At least the posts about "mil-spec underwear" didnt start in the "reloading" forum, i prob would have skipped right over the idea of those 2 topics together...lol

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part-time ninja...

Just to be clear, mil-spec is simply a standard for MINIMUM requirements...there are many options/features that can outperform a mil-spec standardized weapon...my point (and the point i think others are trying to make) is that just because its the std for the military doesnt necessarily make it top of the line...in SOME cases what the military chooses to utilize could be "best available option", but many times it isnt, simply because many elite items cant be constructed or produced in large enough quantities, or efficiently, or just cheap enough for the military to consider...

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part-time ninja...

And my Sport is one heck of a prairie dog gun. Its a difference of opinion that no one will win and really no one looses. You are perfectly happy with milspec and I am perfectly happy with S&W spec. There ya have it!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

V-Maxsplat. I appreciate your opinions and the right to have them. Not talking about the rest of the rifle. Just talking about the barrel. I have empirical data that shows definitely that the Melonite Process by whatever name it is called, exceeds Chrome in every characteristic other than price of production. You cannot do that for Chrome, chrome was compared to plain steel barrels. It far surpassed them. Melonite has been compared to both and beats them, testing done by an independent company that doesn't build gun products. Can you show me the data to prove otherwise?

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Grover Oathkeeper

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-John

The term Econo AR is laughable. If paying more for a different model AR to get useless features makes you feel better then by all means flush your money lol.

I'm not an expert on chrome lined or melonite lined barrels but what I do know is that when new technologys are introduced for any product it is b/c the industry is moving forward not taking steps back.

LOL, our military rifles now have "useless features". Hey, it must be true...some guy on the internet said so.

Psssst. Sometimes changes are made to established specs to increase profit margins or meet a price point, not neccesarily enhance performance.

Useless features being dust covers and forward assist. Unless your dragging your AR through the sand in Iraq why the hell would you need a dust cover? B/c you go to the range then stick it back in the gun safe after lol. The forward assist was not even an original feature of the AR, it was something that was added later on. If the round has not seated properly jamming it in w/ the forward assist is not going to help. Id rather drop the mag and remove the round and properly chamber it again.


Oh right b/c all the points and articles and research that have gone into showing that melonite is a better coating then chrome means nothing.......b/c some guy on the internet said so

Once again, the Sport must be the ultimate since you own one. To justify that position, now other out of spec items like the dust cover and FA aren't needed. What a lame argument you guys make.



Once again, our military rifles have chrome bores per spec. Chrome has worked in combat, LE, and competition circles for years, yet we should believe it is substandard, contrary to my own experiences, because you and Grover feel the need to justify owning a lower tier AR? Get real.

"Useless features being dust covers and forward assist. Unless your dragging your AR through the sand in Iraq why the hell would you need a dust cover? B/c you go to the range then stick it back in the gun safe after lol. The forward assist was not even an original feature of the AR, it was something that was added later on. If the round has not seated properly jamming it in w/ the forward assist is not going to help. Id rather drop the mag and remove the round and properly chamber it again."

The forward assist isn't used very often, but it can be useful if the bolt fails to lock due to a dirty chamber/bolt if it's necessary to discharge another round.

Non lined barrels are preferred in long range competition due to them being more accurate than chrome lined barrels...

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I've never owned a competition grade High Power rifle with a chrome lined barrel because the top grade barrels aren't chrome lined. You simply can not get gilt edged accuracy with chrome, although the accuracy is acceptable for most uses.

Although I agree that you do not need a dust cover or forward assist, I don't own any rifles without them. They just don't look right without them as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't buy a combat weapon without a forward assist.

It's there for a reason. A life-saving reason.

And they do work.

If you plan on only using your AR for the range and polishing it to show your buddies, then you don't need a forward assist.

But if you ever think your AR may one day be called on to save your butt, you need a forward assist.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

You are correct, it is there for a reason...Reason being that the gov didn't follow the ammo specifications for the rifle and used a powder that burned dirty and fouled the chamber and gas tube. Once the powder was switched, that problem went away.

The original design did not have a forward assist. The requirement for the forward assist was also a hold over from the M-1 Garand and the M-14. Both of these rifles had the bolt carrier connected to the operating rod or charging handle. If it failed to chamber a round, you could smack the rod or charging handle and force the bolt into battery. The M-16 bolt is not attached to the charging handle, so the Army wanted something like they had on previous rifles. Stoner gave them the indention on the bolt, but they didn't like that.

Anyway, if you like a forward assist, then get one. I don't feel it is necessary on a civilian rifle, and to suggest that you can not protect your home and loved ones with a firearm that does not have a forward assist is simply ludicrous. Life and property have been protected with firearms that are a whole lot less than an AR-15 that does not have a forward assist.

Yep, I see your point and should clarify my earlier statement. When I talk competition, I am referencing 3 gun matches. Should have made that clear.

There are 3 gun competitors that use unlined, stainless, etc but chrome stands tall in its ability to keep up with the round count and heat generated in a competition rifle.

lol, your the one justifying your purchase. I'm happy with what I have, congrats on paying for for options will will probably never need or use. So some how your AR functions and preforms better then mine b/c it has a dust cover? Show me the complied data of failed ejections, fireing and loading due to no dust covers then get back to me. We can agree to disagree but I by no means need or have no reason for a dust cover or forward assist and while it can be useful in some cases how often is it "really needed" and unless I go play war games on a beach I'll probably be just fine w/ no dust cover considering lots of other weapons do not have then and function just fine and I still stand by the fact that the actual complied data shows an advantage of melonite over chrome lined.

It isn't me making claims against established standards. You are. The data is on my side of this argument. After 50 years of refinement by the US military the specs call for FA/dust cover/chromed bore. If anyone needs to produce data to back up their claims, it's you. The bottom line though, is that these deviations from spec are solely to meet a price point/profit margin. Nothing more.

The more you post, it becomes more and more obvious that you have little experience with hard use of the AR15 platform. That is OK, but don't mislead others with misinformation.

Let me clarify my position on the M&P15 Sport and other lower tier AR type rifles. They are fine for range use for folks that can't or won't pay for an upper tier rifle. They are fun to shoot, like any AR. My problem is with folks that make nonfactual claims on an open web forum where someone might be on seeking information to make a buying decision. That someone might be looking for a home defense or duty weapon and need the "real thing".

BTW, I have "used" the features you claim I overpaid for while firing tens of thousands of 556 rounds.

Interesting. More and more LEO's are carring M&P Modern Sporting Rifles in their cars as Duty weapons. Not to mention M&P sidearms as Duty weapons and also BUG's too. You might say cost,they say reliability and accuracy. They are also buying M&P Sporting Rifles and sidearms for personal off duty weapons.

I have shot your upper tier and the so called lower tier S&W's. My M&P Sporting Rifles will give your (so called) upper tier a run for the money with the same length barrels. I have both,enjoy both and have more than a couple of both.

Needing the "real thing" in a home defense situation would be a 12 guage shot gun,not a Modern Sporting Rifle of any "flavor". You,of all people and your "tens of thousands of rounds" should know the balistics and the devastation of 5.56 rounds flying through the air at 3200-2500fps and the range of the bullets... Your bullets would/could be flying through neighbors houses 5-600 yards away easy... You'd be wiping out hot water heaters,cats,dogs,people and more than likely,never scratch what you were shooting at in the first place. A well seasoned intruder will disarm your un-trained "hiney" and had your hat to you before you could find the safety lever...

I opened my eyes and gave BOTH a good run for the money.

As for the military. ...they are the best at dragging their feet on ANY change. Too much going on under the table.

Really, I know your just egging this on. But when you can show me comparable studies as to what I can show you we will discuss it. Until then it is settled. Data, something that proves the Chrome better and I will listen.
I also understand the business of procuring small arms for the military. If a weapons manufacturer wants to change something on a rifle to make it better they have to completely fund the project on the hope that they are dealing with the right people. That takes making a bunch of rifles with the change and sending them out on active service at the manufacturers cost plus any other breakdowns of the guns. This may take a year or two. In the mean time you are setting up tooling and spending the money to get full blown production of it.
Then after this, then the Joint Chiefs will authorize a couple of studies, funded by the manufacturer, it might happen, then again it might not plus it can be shut down or drug out by the military at any time.
For a manufacturer in order to make the best profit margin on the sales of the rifles, you need to sell as many of them that are exactly identical, Instead of having to set up for a lot of options you just purchase the identical tooling for your lines at the best cost, which means buy in bulk.
Once you get your production line going any changes you make cost you money. Whomever has the contract may want to consider going to a melonite type treatment. but the R&D money on a government contract is not there. So its not going to happen. Now....if someone in the government checks out this QDQ processing and thinks that it would be better if they can get approval to spend the money it will happen.
Right now they are working on the next generations of Military Small Arms and from the reports that I have read they are using it in some of the guns. I just remind myself that the TDP was established in the 60's with little more than barrel changes and cosmetic changes for the last almost 50 years. Yeah I remember tube type TV's and Stereo's that you fixed yourself.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I've been selling to the Fed Gov for years. They are laggers. They will spec out minimum, tested, reliable standards....and they will lag by years on new/improved technologies. There is also a great deal of personal, corporate, and industry influences at work all of the time.

One thing I can tell you for sure.... A federal spec is by no means an indicator that something is "the best", simply that it is "good enough" and tested.

Does the term "Good enough for government work" come to mind?

You've been selling rifles to the government? Didn't think so.

You are broadening the subject base to unrelated areas. That said, since the armed forces are "laggers" and "lag behind for years on new/improved technologies", have you considered that MUCH new technology has resulted from military development. For example, how about GPS (darn, those laggers). How about the F22? Now there is a real example of lagging behind current technology.

Oh and believe me I know my Sport is not the Best out there. Not by a long shot. But what it is, a good value, quality construction, extremely accurate Sporting Rifle for people like me who would rather take it out and run it through its paces alot without worrying about how much money it cost.

Believe me if I had the money, I would have one with a monolithic upper, and I know a company that produces match barrels with the 1:8 5R rifling, melonite treated. Heck yeah I could spend a lot of money. But my Sport does the job. Only time will tell down the long road how long the melonite lasts but I like it.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Actually, according to S&W's own website, the M&P15 Rifle and a couple of other models (ORC, etc.) have a chromed barrel, gas key & bolt. That's the model I happened to have bought because Sports Authority only had that model and the Sport and I didn't want the cheapest model. From what I've read, it seems that the melonite coating is very durable and more than adequate for our civilian semi-auto use. If we had full auto, then the chrome barrel would supposedly have an advantage. For me, it didn't matter; I'd have been happy even with the melonite barrel (for as much shooting as I do). I think that some of these things are beginning to sound like the "Ford vs. Chevy" or "Honda vs. Toyota" kind of arguments. For my uses, I don't think the accuracy difference between barrels, etc. at 400 yards matters much; my shooting distance is more like 20 yards max (home defense).