Looking to get a Red Dot to co exist with fixed A2 front sight

[saltair]

Looking at the Burris FastFireIII to mount on the Picatinny rail of my M&P Sport. I want it to co exist with the TOP of the front fixed sight (easier to sight in) and I want it to mount in front of my MBUS flip up sight that came with the Sport. Will I need (2) 1/2 inch mounts to co exist with the front sight? Probably need to remove rear sight for sight pattern...I realize many will recommend Eotech or Aimpoint but I need to know Red Dot is the way I want to go...

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I've got a FF3 on a Ruger pistol. I don't think much of the FF3 for an AR platform anyway... but Burris does make a sight specific AR riser/mount for it (link below). The FF3 has a bit of magnification distortion due to the curvature of the glass. It's distracting enough on my Ruger but never tried it on an AR for cowitness. I'd look elsewhere... Primary Arms, Busnell and Vortex all make sub $200 true 1x red dots that are better suited for an AR platform and cowitness IMO.

Now... to answer your original question. Using the FF3 picatinny mount, the center of the glass is about .75in above the rail on my Ruger. A generic .75in riser will work. A .5in will be too low and 1in will be too tall.

AR-F3 Sight - rifle scopes, handgun scopes, hunting scopes by Burris Optics

[MichiganScott]

That's known as co-witness. Coexist is defined as living peaceably side side.

That being said, you will most likely need risers much higher than 1/2". The Burris Fastfire are really designed as primary sights on pistols or secondary sights on AR's with scopes.

[WardenRoss]

While we are on the subject....

I'm looking at an AimPoint Pro Patrol. The add states "...indexes the sight at the optimal height for co-witness with the standard iron sights on AR15/M16/M4 carbine style weapons."

Sooooo, I'm assuming it will co-witness with my standard Sport front sight.

Yes, no? Anyone with experience with this AimPoint?

[gunny4053]

In my opinion, the Fastfire III would not be my first choice for an AR optic. Red dots are certainly great options on AR's, but there are better, more durable, less expensive sights to be found. Primary Arms micro dot or 30mm red dot would be, IMHO, a better choice. The 30mm red dot can be had for about $90, including mount and shipping. I bought mine, not just because of the price, but because battery life is listed as 800 to 1000+ hours on a single battery. The other nice thing about ordering from them, they provide the mount options for the sight you select. For example, lower 1/3 co-witness, absolute co-witness, straight, cantilever,inexpensive, or high end mounts, anywhere from $10 to $100+. You won't have to worry about standoffs', because the provided mounts are made specifically for your application. Something to consider.





Mine is set up for absolute co-witness.

Good luck, whatever your choice may be.
Good Luck and good shooting.

[gunny4053]

Originally Posted by WardenRoss

While we are on the subject....

I'm looking at an AimPoint Pro Patrol. The add states "...indexes the sight at the optimal height for co-witness with the standard iron sights on AR15/M16/M4 carbine style weapons."

Sooooo, I'm assuming it will co-witness with my standard Sport front sight.

Yes, no? Anyone with experience with this AimPoint?

Short answer, yes.

[Rland1972]

Originally Posted by gunny4053

In my opinion, the Fastfire III would not be my first choice for an AR optic. Red dots are certainly great options on AR's, but there are better, more durable, less expensive sights to be found. Primary Arms micro dot or 30mm red dot would be, IMHO, a better choice. The 30mm red dot can be had for about $90, including mount and shipping. I bought mine, not just because of the price, but because battery life is listed as 800 to 1000+ hours on a single battery. The other nice thing about ordering from them, they provide the mount options for the sight you select. For example, lower 1/3 co-witness, absolute co-witness, straight, cantilever,inexpensive, or high end mounts, anywhere from $10 to $100+. You won't have to worry about standoffs', because the provided mounts are made specifically for your application. Something to consider.





Mine is set up for absolute co-witness.

Good luck, whatever your choice may be.
Good Luck and good shooting.

That looks so sexy. Mine comes in on Monday. Good prices for sure at primary arms.

[gunny4053]

saltair,
First let me apologize. I made suggestions but didn't really address your question. I believe Chattanoogaphil hit the nail on the head, a .75" standoff should do fine, if you decide to go with the FF3. Beyond that, I still believe there are better, less expensive choices for you to consider.

Good Luck and good shooting.

Rland1972, did you get you sight today? If so, I think you're going to be very pleased.

[saltair]

Thanks all, for your recommendations. I went with and ordered the Primary Arms 3 MOA Gen II red dot with Kill Flash and absolute co-witness. Maybe I should have gone with the lower 1/3 co-witness but this is my first red dot and for under $100 I'm sure I can make due and learn from the experience. I did try the NcSTAR at my LGS but it had a starburst above the red dot so I gave it back. Nick at Primary Arms was very helpful. I put PA on my bookmarks.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The guys at Primary Arms are first class. I think you made a better choice than the FF3. The kill flash will end up in the AR parts box.

[saltair]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

The guys at Primary Arms are first class. I think you made a better choice than the FF3. The kill flash will end up in the AR parts box.

Along with my holsters, springs, triggers and buffers...

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

The kill flash will end up in the AR parts box.

But they look so cool! Isn't that the point?

[Rland1972]

Originally Posted by gunny4053

Rland1972, did you get you sight today? If so, I think you're going to be very pleased.

Yes it came in. I'm very happy with it.







Thanks for the help.

[gunny4053]

Lookin' good.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Rland1972,

You might consider moving it forward on the reciever.

[Rland1972]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Rland1972,

You might consider moving it forward on the reciever.

Would you please explain why? I'm new to the AR and red dot world and have no idea what would be the difference/benefit. Thank you.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

For starters, you don't need your rear sight up against the optic when flipped up. If it's further away you can see over the sight when it's flipped up and using the red dot. For that matter, flip or fixed rear sights really don't make a lot of difference with a red dot is mounted forward., but when the rear sight is up and pushed up against the optic it's blocking the window period. More importantly, when the sight is further forward aiming is more repeatable. Try it forward and then to the rear and see how you like it best.

[Rland1972]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

For starters, you don't need yiur rear sight up against the optic when flipped up. If it's further away yiu can see over the sight using the red dot. When the sight is further forward aiming is more repeatable. Try it forward and then to the rear and see how you like it best.

Thank you. I just moved it forward and like it much better. The stock front sight is much less visible. Is there any technic of any kind to adjusting where to mount the sight on the gun or is it more of what feels comfortable. It's all the way toward and looks a little odd to me.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

No, there is no red dot position law.
Just keep it on the receiver.

Try it in different positions and see how you shoot. Some guys who never learn to shoot with both eyes open do better with the red dot moved rearward because they peer through the red dot like a kid with an empty toilet paper tube and suffer limited field of view.

[Rland1972]

Okay thanks. I haven't been able to shoot yet but I have been aiming at things in the house (unloaded and double checked of course). It does take some getting use to and I naturally close one eye at first but I'm coming along well and it's getting easy to sight in with both eyes now.

Again Thank you.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Keep up the practice with both eyes open focusing only down range on the target. Eventually you'll find that the optic body starts to fade away and the dot simply floats out there on the target. After a bit, Cypher will ask you to flip down the front cover on the optic and if you can still see the red dot on the target. It's interesting to try.

[cyphertext]

Rland, that looks good...exactly how I run mine, cantilever mount as far forward as it can go and stay on the receiver. Keep working with both eyes open. Like Phil said, focus down range on the target and you will get to where you don't notice the front sight. On my .22, I run a red dot absolute co-witness with both fixed front and rear sights. Never notice the sights unless I am looking for them.

And yes, try the front cover down trick!

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

After a bit, Cypher will ask you to flip down the front cover on the optic and if you can still see the red dot on the target.

I only just heard of this technique. I tried it with my SPARC and was amazed how well it worked. This way the sight can be turned down to a really low level and still see the dot even in bright light.

I haven't tried shooting with it this way, but I can imagine with practice, and using two eyes, it would work quite well.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Some guys can do it, others can't. There's a technical name for it but I forget. I have tried a couple times but am off about a foot or more at around 30-40yds. It's fun to try.

[gunny4053]

That is absolutely bizarre. Next time I go shooting, I'm going to give that a try. Looking at it here in the house, the sight becomes a ghost and the dot appears on whatever I'm looking at.

Very interesting, thanks. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[cyphertext]

I typically don't shoot with the cover down. I just like to have people try it when they say that the fixed front sight post is in the way when using a red dot.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

I typically don't shoot with the cover down. I just like to have people try it when they say that the fixed front sight post is in the way when using a red dot.

Excellent! That is a great demonstration. I will use that myself.

[saltair]

Wow, I ordered the red dot Monday and it came yesterday, Wed. Looks really good and seems to be very well built. Very fine threads on the kill flash and a little difficult to get started and screw on the red dot but got it. Hopefully will get the red dot installed and sighted in the next few days.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by saltair

Wow, I ordered the red dot Monday and it came yesterday, Wed. Looks really good and seems to be very well built. Very fine threads on the kill flash and a little difficult to get started and screw on the red dot but got it. Hopefully will get the red dot installed and sighted in the next few days.

If your irons are already zeroed, just use the irons as you normally would to aim, then adjust the red dot to the tip of the front sight post. You'll be good to go.

A lot of guys use the middle of the red dot then complain that the dot covers up too much of the target or bullseye for precise aiming. But the top edge 12 o'clock of the red dot can be used for more precise aiming. For those who just shoot at paper with a red dot, the top edge is the best method IMO.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

A lot of guys use the middle of the red dot then complain that the dot covers up too much of the target or bullseye for precise aiming.

If they're complaining about this then they have the wrong optic. They should get a scope instead of a red dot. Red dots are not intended for precision, but speed. A 3MOA dot at 100 yards will cover 3" of the target. That's plenty small enough for me to get as good a group as I ever could with a 1x optic.

Yes, when I was in my 20s I could have used the top of the dot for better precision, but not today.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

If they're complaining about this then they have the wrong optic. They should get a scope instead of a red dot. Red dots are not intended for precision, but speed. A 3MOA dot at 100 yards will cover 3" of the target. That's plenty small enough for me to get as good a group as I ever could with a 1x optic.

Yes, when I was in my 20s I could have used the top of the dot for better precision, but not today.

I completely agree. I use 1x red dot sights for offhand shooting, quick target acquisition of multiple targets at varying distances and positions, as well as chasing soda cans and other debris. And yes, I can't hold the gun better than the optic and rifle will shoot. But I have a playground at the club that allows for this. This is my favorite playground at our club.

On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of shooters out there are stuck shooting at a single stationary piece of paper right in front of them. They get a 5MOA dot and shoot at 50 yards, covers their entire 2.5in Sight N See target. Honestly, I'd rather throw rocks than shoot guns at where most folks do (paper is so boring for these rifles as far as I'm concerned), but they got what they got.



And this is what an AR was born for... not bipods and magnified scopes and all the rest... but lot's of folks think differently. What makes the world go round... some folks even put boat anchor weight and size EOTech on their ARs... yuk.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

...some folks even put boat anchor weight and size EOTech on their ARs... yuk.

Yeah, I can't believe anyone would do that!!!


When they could have a tiny little optic, like the SPARC:

[Rland1972]

Originally Posted by gunny4053

That is absolutely bizarre. Next time I go shooting, I'm going to give that a try. Looking at it here in the house, the sight becomes a ghost and the dot appears on whatever I'm looking at.

YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!!!

I want to thank you guys again. I have tried the front flap up and it has helped my eyes focus better on the target making the front sight and red dot mount just disappear from my sight. I can't wait to shoot this machine.