A topic that I'm sure has been beaten to death on this forum no doubt but I figured I'd ask the folks who are familiar with my AR rather than the LGS trying to separate as much coin from me as they can. I've got it down to 2 options for my Sport:
1. Primary Arms microdot with a 3x long eye relief magnifier for a total cost of $340..
2. EoTech XPS2-2 with the BDC for about $450.

I like the versatility of the PA option but I'm not sure if that will make it too bulky and top heavy. With the EoTech option it breaks the bank and leaves nothing left for a magnifier.

Thoughts?

EoTech.

I've had a PA M3 clone and a 3X magnifier and it turned a light rifle into a top heavy pig.





Better to spend your money on the high end EoTech than a PA microdot & magnifier.

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-John

Personal opinion, but if you need a magnifier with the red dot, then you really needed a scope in the first place.

The reason I don't want to go scope is that I don't want to be locked in to any one format and I want to be able to use my BUIS. Going red dot/ holographic gives me some flexibility.

Have you considered an ACOG style fixed power red dot/scope? I have the old PA generation on my 15-22 and it has been solid. Primary arms has a new generation out at your price range. I think the PA one is 3.5x. It's great at 25-100 yards.

Look into Lucid. They are priced right and a quality optic for the money. They make a 2X magnifier that screws onto the red dot. I have a Gen 3 HD7 and I very happy with it.

You can get a varied power scope, 1x4 power, still shoots like a red dot on 1x, cranks up with magnification. Quick release mounts lets you go to BUIS if it fails... after all, they are "back up" sights.

If you want to shoot for distance and bullseye accuracy = scope.

If you want to shoot for distances up to 100 yards and have quick sight acquisition for combat accuracy = dot.

If you want a little of both, a fixed power ACOG.

You really can't cheat with optics. If you have the scratch to buy an EoTech or Aimpoint, do not downgrade to a PRimary Arms, Lucid, Votrext, or any other budget optic. Buy the EoTech. Wait a while and buy a scope with a good QD mount. Best of both worlds right there.

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-John

Another option to consider is mounting your iron sights on a 45 degree offset if you can't use them through whatever optic you choose. That way, with a slight tilt of the rifle, You are in business for the up close and dirty shots.

With a red dot, you can use your irons through it, just flip down the rear sight when not in use. With a scope, you are pretty much stuck with either flipping or removing the scope or doing what I mentioned above. It really comes down to personal preference.

Yes it does provide flexibility. It also provides the shooter with all this stuff in his face and nearly a whopping half pound more weight not including mount and hinged hardware.

When I first saw such setups I thought they looked pretty cool and strongly considered it. I rejected the idea based upon the main purpose of the 1x red dot.

My 1x red dot is for fast target acquisition, both eyes open, unlimited eye relief and field of view, center mass point and click 0-250yds+. So the question became..... How would a bunch of weight and clutter in my face when not in use and limited field of view when I was using it, how would that compliment the main purpose of a 1x red dot? The answer is it would't... at least not for me.

Primary Arms Fixed power ACOG style? Have not seen that. Do you have a link? Or are you referring to this.....

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-...-p/pac2.5x.htm

Yeah, that's it.

Ah, Ok, you had me going for a minute. I wuz sayin huh? wah? I just finished an exhausting search a month or two ago for what you described. Thought I may have missed something.

Thanks guys. I've been conflicted on this subject. I've had people tell me to go scope and I've had people tell me to go red dot w/magnification, etc. Also, perusing the photo thread for answers created more questions. The more I've thought about it I'm really not going to have the opportunity for a lot of real long range shooting so a red dot at 250 yards may do just fine for me.

That's why they make QD mounts. You can have the best of what you want for what you want range wise. Doesn't take much to get re-zeroed.

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One optic I have found to work very well for me is the Burris AR 332. It is a fixed 3X with a BDC. The reticle can be changed from black to red to green depending on the background with adjustable brightness levels, but the feature I like the most is the black reticle does not require a battery so no matter the situation, your optic always is ready. I added a Burris QD mount, but it does come with a mount so the cost ($300 range) is very reasonable for a quality optic. I have found that with the 3X, it is still good for CQC, but it does take a little getting used to. It is nice to have those options in a one piece unit as opposed to the extra weight and complexity of swing away units.
I have used this optic for a couple of years and it does retain zero with the QD when removed and remounted and, while the BDC is good for 600 meters, I have not used it beyond 300 and it is accurate, for me, out that far. YMMV.

I think the only true ACOG is made by Trijicon in regards to their fiber optic technology. Not sure what is meant by ACOG style?

ACOG style meaning fixed power, ACOG mounts, and range estimation... at least that is my assumption.

Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Advanced Combat Optical Gunsights (abbreviated ACOG) are a series of telescopic sights manufactured by Trijicon. The ACOG was originally designed to be used on the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, but Trijicon have also developed ACOG accessories for other firearms. Models provide fixed power magnification levels from 1.5× to 6×.[1] ACOG reticles are illuminated at night by an internal phosphor. Some versions have an additional daytime reticle illumination via a passive external fiber optic light pipe."

I think I just figured out why I have more than a couple MSR's. Too many scopes to choose from and having the right "tool" on hand for the intended job.

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I only purchase the scopes now we're I can dope the scope for the distance and bullet drop. My scope has to have the mechanical turret for the BDC(that's the bullet drop compisation). My rifles can shoot very accurately from 100 yards to 500 yards with no error. Using a range finder I just dial in the distance and shoot when I'm ready. Bushnell offers this in there banner series scopes for around $99. I've used Bushnell scopes with the BDC option for over 30 years now. I've never had a problem. It comes with turret rings for each different bullet weight. This is all I use. When that trophy of a lifetime is 450 yards out there thinking I can't shoot while sticking his tounge out at me I can give him a third eye sort of speak.

The scopes with the dots on the cross hairs don't consider the different bullet weights. They don't calculate the bullet drop correctly.

Night vision is a different world.

This is an excellent summary of why a shooter would pick one over the other.


This is also some really good advice.

I would add one caveat, Vortex makes really nice scopes. Their red dots have left me cold and I won't buy another, but their scopes are magnificent.

Off a bag, I can shoot 2MOA groups with my EOTech. I've considered the EXPS2-2 for the long range dot, but I can still shoot 2MOA groups at 200 yards with just the one dot. The second dot is intended for 500 yards. How often will you use your rifle at that distance?

If you really want the best of both worlds, get a 1-4x24 scope. The 1x position is not a true 1x (there's a little distortion in most scopes), but it works fine even with two eyes. Then the 4x position offers enough magnification to get a better view on 200 yard targets.

I personally own an EOTech 556.A56 and a Leatherwood Hi-Lux CMR 1-4x24 scope. The EOTech is marvelous for 100 yards and less. It's relatively light at 12oz. The scope is just over 16oz and then you have to add a mount. Still, there's nothing like a little magnification when shooting 200 or more yards.

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Freedom isn't free.

It's also been a struggle for me not to go all mall ninja and tacticool with it. Like ChattanoogaPhil said, the red dot set ups with the magnification appear pretty sweet, especially when I peruse that intoxicating photo thread. With that said, I'm ordering the EoTech tomorrow. I found a really good price from B&H Photo & Video for $427 and a QD version for $472. I thought the company just sold cameras but they sell optics as well. Go figure. Some time down the line I'll look into powered scopes but for now the EoTech will suit me just fine. Thanks to all of you for the suggestions and advice. This is my first AR and I'm trying to take things slowly and do my homework so I don't look back and have buyer's remorse.

Which model of EOTech did you settle on? EXPS2-2? I would drop the QD and save yourself $50. The regular mount attaches with a simple thumb screw. If you want to take it off, just unscrew it. And, you won't be taking it off much. At least I don't.

Buying the EOTech is the right way to go for now. If you decide you don't like it, they hold their value quite well and sell pretty quickly.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'll be going with the XPS2-2. I was thinking about buying the QD but I think that extra $50 could go towards ammo.

I'd go with the QD mount and set it to the right "tension" to hold the scope. The screw is ok, but finger tight doesn't/won't get it. It needs to be screwed down tight like "bark on a tree". Remember there is recoil to contend with and the vibration WILL eventually loosen a screw that isn't "torqued" down on anything.

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This is good advice and certainly true. However, if you follow the instructions in the book provided, this will never be a problem.

According to my EOTech book here's how to properly tighten the mount:

Tighten the slotted lock knob, rotating the bolt until resistance is felt. Use a coin, screwdriver, or other type of flat tool to rotate the bolt head an additional 3/4 turn to fully tighten.

Following those directions, my optic has never come loose.

Sure, the QD mounts are great when you have to take your optic on and off, but who does that on any regular basis?

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Freedom isn't free.

No worries. I know that scope and screw mount quite well and have it torqued down tight.

The trouble is, some people do take things on and off. Then eventually they have the screw slot all marred up and looking nasty. Just wanted to give him a heads up.

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We'll, it's already shipped so I'll just have to make do. I'm not going to be popping it on and off that's for sure. I plan on getting my money's worth with that bad boy.

I ste up an AR rifle one of 3 ways, even a 308 AR.
First I always have iron sights, my favorites are the folding YHM [Yankee Hill Machine].

For up close use, I recommed either the Aimpoint or the EO Tech.
I use the EO Tech as I prefer its reticle. I use the one that takes the Surefire type 123 Lithium battery.

When you can add the EO Tech 3x magnifer with its swing mount.
You can take it off the rifle if you want for less weight, but I leave mine on and just swing it to the side when I do not need it. Also you can always tilt the rifle and look through the magniver, and then swing back over and shoot through the red dot.
The EO Tech and the magniver work great to medium range, say 300 yards.

The 4X ACOG or the 3.5 ACOG are excellent sights. I prefer the 4x on the 223 and the 3.5 with its longer eye relief on the 308.
Their ballistic reticle is excellent and for their size and weight their glass is excellent. You can shoot as accurately with them as their rangeing reticle goes.

For hunting with an AR I choose the same scope I would use on a bolt rifle for in the same calibre, and for the same hunting conditions.

However I have shot several animals with an AR using only the EO Tech or the ACOG.

In fact on a 223 AR and a 308 AR I have them set up with all three sighting systems. I place what ever optic on the gun that I need/want to use.

On an AR that is mostly for personal defense, I would get the EO Tech now, and then add the EO Tec magnifer, later when I could afford to.
That set up is very hard to beat, IMHO.

XPS2 is a great choice.

For the average guy QD optic mounts are highly overrated IMO.

An interesting mount comes with the Aimpoint Pro-- a "Torque-Limiting" screw that bridges the gap between fooling around with tool required mounts like EOTech and QD lever mounts. Just twist by hand and it will turn like a ratchet after reaching the correct tightness. About as "QD" as most guys would need. For an Aimpoint it's priced right too... usually under $400 with e-tailer coupon.

^ I'm drooling.

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-John

The Aimpoint PRO is one of the best deals on optics on the market today.

Where can I get one for less than $400?

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Freedom isn't free.

I picked up my Aimpoint PRO for $380 shipped, no tax. I really wanted the T1 but the bank account said no. I had a coupon from Optics Planet.

Can probably find it cheaper, but Midway has the Pro for $416. Wait for a $30 coupon off $300 or more and free shipping on optics too.

Tons of 5 star reviews. Aimpoint PRO Red Dot Sight 30mm Tube 1x 2 MOA Dot Picatinny-Style

$380 is about as low as I've seen on the Pro, with $400-420 being the norm at most places. An excellent model, I was looking at this one but decided to go with the Micro T1 instead. Nothing wrong with the Pro, though and a great deal with the included mount.

My opinion is that an AR with a red dot is a hammer, and an AR with a scope is a scalpel. One is good for making holes, and the other is for making all the holes touch each other.

If you put a scope on top of a carry handle rear sight (and have a fixed or BUS front sight), you can actually have both.

You have to decide what you want to do with it, of course.
My thinking is that if all you want is a hammer, get an AK-47.