Hi folks. I accidentally drug another thread off-topic with the question, so I thought I'd start another thread that addresses that question in particular, and a set of questions in general.

I am brand-new to the AR platform, and to any tactical weapons beyond the semiautomatic handgun. I've been around guns for 59 years now, so I'm certainly not new to guns, but for the most part, they've always been related to hunting in one way or another.

For various reasons, I've taken another look at the firearms I own and decided to buy an AR. I chose a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. Now it's time to dress it properly.

Understand, I am a function over form type of guy, and I really couldn't care less about the appearance of the finished gun. Bells and whistles, golly gee-whiz accessories, and a badass tactical look don't impress me. A gun that does the job I bought it for does.

So, the 2 jobs I bought it for (keep in mind that while I am a prepper, I am not a survivalist/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI type:

1. I bought it to knock down deer at 250 to 300 yards max. In reality, my typical shot on a deer will be in the 75 to 100 yards range.

2. I bought it to be a part of my home defense tools. While as I say,I am not a survivalist/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI type, I do recognize that I just might be wrong, and those guys right, and I wanted the proper tool for that possibility.

With those 2 things in mind, I have 2 questions. 1st, how should I dress out my rig? What accessories will give me an effective, efficient tool for the 2 jobs I want to do? 2nd, I want to settle on two types of ammunition, one particular round for each of the jobs I want my AR to perform.

While I am on a limited budget (I'm retired, and because of my wasteful ways in my younger years. I live on Social Security, exclusively) for the 1st job, killing deer, I am not at all concerned with cost per round. I figure I can buy a couple of 20 round boxes and that will take care of sighting the gun in and kill all of the deer I want for several years.

Ammunition for job 2, home defense and the remote possibility of TEOTWAWKI, is another story. I am very price-sensitive on the ammunition I get for this purpose, but I am not stupid. Think frugal, not cheap (and there is a difference. A HUGE difference). I have already probably made one mistake on a choice for this. I have 500 rounds of Russian-made steel cased ammunition from Lucky Gunner that will be delivered tomorrow. I didn't do enough research before buying it, and now before it even gets here, I'm expecting to be disappointed, if for no other reason than it is steel cased. I don't currently reload, but I have in the past, and I can see the possibility of a Dillon Progressive in my future. Steel cases just don't cut it. I went for the low price, and I'm sorry about it already.

Any comments about what is missing from my itty-bitty home arsenal are welcome. I currently have the AR, a Glock model 23, and a Winchester model 12, 12gauge pump with a 7 shot magazine. (Prior to a house fire 5 years ago that destroyed everything I owned. I had the above-mentioned Dillon Progressive, along with a serious "reach way out there and knock anything down." Gun… A Ruger M 77 chambered in 300 Win Mag).

The one thing I am not interested in doing with this thread is starting a discussion/argument about the appropriatness of using 5.56/223 ammunition on deer.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

If you are mostly wanting to get it for hunting and not planning on using it as your CQB gun, I assume you would use the shotgun for that, I would recommend an inexpensive 2-7 or 3-9 scope. For ammo any soft points will work for hunting. Have fun.

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

I suppose I should have said what I have done so far (which isn't much) so y'all know what the starting point is.

I have replaced the stock hand guard with the Magpul MOE hand guard, and I have added a tactical light and mount (I have to brag here. 310 lumens...it lights up the world!...for $62.00 plus mount).

That's it.

My thinking is add a scope, perhaps a Nikon P – 223,3x9x40 for deer, a sling, and I have thought about a red dot/green dot, but decided that would really be unnecessary.

Thoughts? Additions? Mistakes? And don't forget the ammunition questions.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

I have the Nikon P-223 3-9x40 on my AR and absolutely love it. Can't beat the clarity, light gathering performance for the price.

As for ammo recommendations, for deer I would go with as heavy a soft-point bullet as your rifle can stabilize. If you have a 1-8" twist rate, that is probably around 70 grains. Several manufacturers have game rounds in the 60 - 70 grain range that should work well.

I don't use mine for home defense but if I did, I would probably pick a 62 grain hollow point. Works for the military, should work for me.

Howdy bhayles,

As to your optics, I would recommend a lower powered scope. The higher magnification is not going to be very useful for your intended uses--a 9x scope on a defensive weapon will do more harm than good--hard to use quickly at close distances. A red dot is really fast at close distances, but would not be my choice for trying to hit the vitals of a deer at 200 yards. Thus, my recommendation for a low powered scope, maybe something like this: Click Here

For deer hunting, keep the shots inside 200 yards for sure. The little bullets lose speed and energy at a quicker rate than traditional deer rifle calibers. I would try some ammo loaded with Barnes TSX bullets; they have worked for me in other calibers, and all the research and testing I've seen on them in .223/5.56 makes them look a standout choice. I found some available at MidwayUSA; read the reviews about people who hunted with it. Click Here

For ammo job #2, I recommend 55 grain FMJBT 5.56 NATO, commonly available for reasonable prices. XM193, Winchester Q3131, etc. This load is high velocity and has the best chance of yawing/fragmentation among affordable ammo choices. You should be able to find it for under 40 cents per round--$200/500 rounds. My second choice would be XM855, a 62 grain FMJBT at 5.56 pressure. I just did a little quick online shopping, and found a screaming good deal today on XM855 at PSA: Click Here

Welcome to ARs and good luck!

I try to keep my AR pretty much as designed-- a battle rifle.
Aimpoint H1 on LaRue mount
Magpul MS4 sling
That's about it.

Stuff like a bipod and high power magnified optic are better suited for my Remington 700.

That's not to say that an AR can't be used for whatever the operator chooses, but I've found that trying to make a platform what it isn't generally costs more and delivers less.

If you want to shoot game at those distances, a good scope would be necessary. I will have to leave the scope advice to the more experienced long distance shooters. I only have experience with 3-9X40 scopes and 100 to 150 yard ranges.

Given that you would use it for hunting at distance and home defense, I would also suggest a good quick disconnect scope mount. That way you can change out to iron sights or swap out to an affordable, quality red dot such as the Primary Arms Micro Dot.

If your shots on a deer will realistically be in the 75 to 100 yard range, it is my opinion that you really don't need to free float the barrel. I have a cobbled together, keep-it-simple-stupid, 14.5" barreled AR-15.

• 1:9 twist
• CMV (no chrome lining, no melonite)
• Magpul handguards that have heat shields
• Magpul VFG as a nod to close quarters utility
• Simple 2-point nylon sling
• A2 Carry Handle

100 yards. Slow fire. Shot off a wobbly bench. Forend on a bag. TulAmmo 55gr. Iron sights. Polished combat trigger. Everything went just right.



Same conditions, but a faster pace of fire.

I don't need a super accessorized rifle to get the performance I want at 75 to 100 yards. The reason I pimped out my 15-Sport was for fun. Sometimes, I enjoy shooting the simple rifle more.

I would go with 223 REM 60 GR InterLock® SP American Whitetail®

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1q1FqSyxRE


Steel case ammunition has not been an issue in my 15-Sport. My rifle properly cycles Russian steel case bi-jacketed ammo. The target I posted above is proof. The steel case ammo gets the job done. It's affordable practice ammo. The only reason I don't use it is because the ranges near me banned it. I switched to Wolf Gold .223



$329 + shipping for 1,000 rounds. Brass case with military crimped primers. Copper jacketed. The primers are sealed and the projectiles look to have a seal on them. I think they'll survive long term storage.

I still have 500 rounds of Russian steel case TulAmmo in storage for a SHTF.


Honestly, a good .22lr caliber semi-auto rifle. A Ruger 10/22 is a no-brainer choice in my book. The new 50th anniversary equipped with the Ruger American Rifle style stock with different cheek comb inserts, scout rifle style iron sights, and a picatinny rail looks like a winner.

Ruger® 10/22® 50th Anniversary Design Contest Rifle Autoloading Rifle Models

The takedown model is for the prepper crowd.

Ruger® 10/22 Takedown® Autoloading Rifle Models

I own a plain-jine wood stock model equipped with a BSA 3-9X40 scope and a power custom non-adjustable sear and hammer.




Distance was 25 to 30 yards (can't remember). Forend on a bag. Slow fire. 10 rounds of Federal bulk brick 36gr.

The other .22lr semi-auto rifle I have trigger time on is a friend's Marlin Model 795. The micro-groove rifling of the Marlin's barrel is outstanding. It's more accurate out of the box than my 10/22.

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-John

I've heard a LOT of good things about that scope and very few negatives. Unless someone here comes up with good reasons not to, its the one I'm leaning toward.

I talked to the tech people at S&W Friday, and they said with the 1:9 twist in the Sport's barrel, the heaviest bullet they would expect the rifle to stabilize is 68 gr...now its a matter of which one,

For home defense...no, the military doesn't use a hollow-point. They are banned on the battlefield by the Geneva Convention. That's stupid, but its the way it is.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

I came up with good reasons not too, but you can ignore them; that's fine. (I'm not being sarcastic; if you want that scope you should get it.) A 3-9x scope on a .223 carbine is kind of like putting a red dot on .270 bolt action; it's a bit out of place, but if that's what suits you, you should get it.

The military does use hollow points. SMK loads are the first that come to mind, in both 5.56 and 7.62, a 77 grain hollow point and 175 grain hollow point respectively. The 70 grain barnes TSX hollow point is also reported to be in use as a barrier blind load, and is purportedly the bullet type used to zap Osama in the grape.

Yes, you did make a good case against the Nikon. I meant that IF I did get a scope, it would probably be that one. I'm actually leaning AGAINST a scope, thinking a good red dot instead, and limiting my shots to around 100-125 yards on deer.

As for the military and hollowpoint, I'll edit what I said,. They aren't SUPPOSED to use them...but then it IS the US government and they aren't supposed to spy on their own citizens without probably cause, and we know how that is working out.

Here's how its SUPPOSED to be:

"The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention and the United Nations."

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

Ah, the old probably cause. You have to wear your campaign hat too?

The military does not use hollow points. People can say they do and I'm sure there are many internet stories about them being used, but you won't find any in any military arsenal.


bhayles,
I think you have a decent plan for the absolute minimum you've decided to do. However, as I'm sure you're aware, trying to make anything adapt to multiple purposes usually makes it not excel at any of them.

So, based on your limited budget, forget the AR as a SHTF gun for now. Buy a decent scope and set it up for hunting. Focus your shotgun and pistol for personal protection, they're better tools for that anyway.

Now, you're not going to like this, but I feel it's necessary for someone to at least say. Saving money by buying cheap optics is like using a plastic tarp for a tent. Yes, you can do it and yes, it will work, and yes, you'll find plenty of guys to tell you scope X works fine for them. In the end it will just put you whatever money you spend further away from what you really want.

The Nikon P223 comes in a few varieties. There are different magnification and reticle combinations. The fixed 3x with a red dot back up would be a good combo on an AR. Even so, I wouldn't buy one. Why? Because I've had several cheap scopes and all of them were OK until I got a really good scope. Then the flaws of the cheap ones really stood out.

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Freedom isn't free.

I can't help but point out the obvious to you, though you asked not to: the 223 is..... so-so for deer in the 50-75yd range. Beyond that, you are going to be searching for lost animals. It's just a fact; deer are resilient, and they bounce rather well. Expect them to get up and skip out on you beyond 75 yds.

Now; onto the rifle. If it's for defense, then there are 2 optics choices: a scope, which I would keep to 6x or lower, and a red dot/ holo, which is actually more ideal for defense and close quarters hunting in heavy forested areas. For this, I would stick with Eotech, as they really are hard to beat. There are a dozen good regular scopes between 1-6X which can suit your needs, so you pick your favorite flavor, and run with it.

As to the rifle; honestly, other than an optic and a sling, there is not much reason to add weight or complexity. Every extra ounce of rifle you carry works against you.

As to ammo: You might need to do a little testing of which steel case is your favorite, but I can tell you that with well over 10K steel case thru a Sport already, they A: Do not eat the barrel overnight. And, B: They tend to work pretty well, and hit with similar performance of most readily available 223 ammo.

All I can say is, it's a small, small rifle to knock down a deer and keep it down. YES, it kills them. But you also wind up chasing them from here to Missouri......

I would agree with Rastoff starting out...you seem to have my recommendation for HD weapon already (12-guage) so set your rifle for hunting, to start. Optics like the Nikon are great from what i have heard, but never used personally...i like the Primary Arms 1-6 that has illuminated reticle for low light...not a TRUE 1x, but close enough you wont feel fishbowled if a whitetail pops out 25 yds from you...in the long run though, ifyou want to go HD capable with the AR, consider setting up an entire different upper for CQB...that way you can go hunt, come home and clean your AR up, then swap uppers to your HD upper...allows you to put quick-response and clearing accessories on defense upper (like your flashlight, small vert/angled grip, simple red dot, buis), and have your hunter upper ready to go next season with longer-range accessories (scope, decent bipod, etc)...one thing i recommend either way might be a better trigger -and for budget good trigger, i like RRA 2-stage match...great for accurate shots at distance, and not a prob squeezing off a few at close range quickly...

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part-time ninja...

Seriously, wolf is not bad ammo, oil your ar properly and it runs fine, my 10 ur old nephew dropped a deer at 90 yards with wolf 55 grain. It was a shoulder hit and it was a decent size doe. You put one in the gear box of a deer it's going down. And if your not intending on shooting through body armor it will work for self defense also, when you store the wolf ammo put kitty litter in the case with it, it will keep moisture out. Agian seriously I shot over 1000 rounds through my Dpms ar and no malfunctions from the ammo itself, little hint they don't like steel mags, I run pmags that I got for 8.99 a piece and I have 10 30 round mags, the wolf feeds real good out of polymer mags. I oil mr ar-15 with 10w40
Mobil delvac and used just plain 15w40 in Iraq, it worked better than clp
And the bolt would still be "wet after" several rounds. Keep oil on your bc and wolf will run fine.

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Were gonna need a bigger boat!