On the second weekend in Oct, I will be going to a 4 day Practical Rifle class. I have 2 rifles to choose from. Both will be going with me in case one breaks, but I need to pick one for my primary.

One has a 20" barrel and one has a 16" barrel. The 20" has a 1-4x24 CMR scope on it and the 16" has an EOTech 556.A65 HWS.

I just got back from the range. I took 10 shots @ 50yds from each gun and here are the results:

16" EOTech


20" CMR (used at 4x)


I have only done a preliminary zero with both guns. Obviously they both need to be adjusted a little, but I didn't make any adjustments today.

I was surprised to see the 20" with a larger group than the 16" gun. It could be due to ammo. I was using 55gr bullets and the 20" has a 1:7 twist which I'm told is better for heavier bullets. Still, I didn't expect the group to be that much larger.

Either gun will be fine in the class with these groups. It is not a precision class, but a practical class. Still, I want to do well. If I can get distinguished graduate from this class, it makes me eligible to go to the precision rifle class which I really want.

Which gun would you pick as your primary? Is there enough in this description to even decide?

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Freedom isn't free.

I should also note something about my CMR reticle:

This is what it looks like:


The zero is adjusted for the center dot at 100 yards. Today I had a brain fade and was using the dot at 50 yards when I should have been using the line just below the dot. That is why the target group is so low.

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Freedom isn't free.

Can you tell us what these rifles are?

The rectical you illustrate looks slow: too fiddly for my taste and hard to use with speed.

I prefer a coarser, less fussy system like a medium post or even a good old black t.

Just my opinion, of course.

Sorry, I thought that was obvious, this being the M&P-15 forum and all...

They are both AR-15 style rifles, but not M&Ps. They are both "franken guns" made by me. One has an aluminum lower made from an 80% blank and the other has a polymer lower made from an 80% blank.

I guess that depends on what you're looking at. I can see that some would be distracted by the subtensions. Still, the center dot is a 1MOA dot, the inner circle is 5mil and the outer is 10mil. Using the circles gives me a pretty quick acquisition. Then the marks give me better accuracy at distance.


The EOTech has this reticle:


It also affords ranging, but not as accurately as the CMR. It can be used like this:


Also, if the center dot is zeroed at 50 yards, the bottom of the circle is dead on at 7 yards.

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Freedom isn't free.

Carbine and Eotech! It's appropriate to the training and obviously more than capable of producing the necessary results. Good Luck at your course and good shooting.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

I'd lean toward the 16" and Eotech, assuming you have all the bugs out of the carbine length gas system. I imagine it's just a hair faster handling.

Over the years I've shot a few deer and elk and guided some hunters for the same game here in Colorado.

The hardest thing to convince the folks I guided was not to try to hold to correct for distance: just put the cross hairs where you want to hit and shoot.

If the shooter can distinguish the target as a deer , as opposed to his mother in law, and assuming he's zeroed the rifle for about 3" high at 100 yards (.270, 30-06, 308) he'll hit the kill zone out to 250-300 yards. Never fails.

Most misses happen because the shooter is adjusting for distance and so shoots over the animal's back.

Now folks are buying optics like yours to do all that 'distance correction' with features in the optics.

Folks are still fussing with this stuff and either missing high or slowed down so they miss opportunities because they're trying to figure out where the fancy rectical instructions tell them to aim.

In my experience, the vast majority if shooters would do better in practical applications (like hitting the deer) with the simpler optics.

Just my opinion, of course.

So, does all the verbiage mean you'd pick the 16" gun?

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Freedom isn't free.

Go with the 16" AR. The size makes it easier to maneuver around things like walls. Also a shorter barrel might mean a lighter gun. Something you might be grateful for if you have to hold it for an extended time in class.

It doesn't matter if they are sighted in yet. The size of the group tells everything I need to know.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Take whatever rifle you wanting to get more time/experience with. For me, if I was picking between your rifles i would choose the 16".

Put the 16" on the aluminum lower as the primary.

Since this is a practical course I'd go with the 16 only because it's lighter and shorter. Easier handling. If it were a precision shooting class I'd go with whatever is more accurate.

The 1/7 twist allows for better accuracy in a wider range of bullet weights. I have a Colt with a 1/9 twist and it's a little less accurate with some brands of heavier bullets.

Why do you say that?

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Freedom isn't free.

Because I don't trust poly lowers, none last very long.

Interesting. How many have you manged to wear out? What were the conditions that caused them to fail?

The lower of an AR style rifle doesn't take a lot of stress. So, I figure it will hold up for my purposes. I'm kinda leaning toward using the polymer one because I want to see how it does in the class.

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Freedom isn't free.

You going to Front Sight?

Yessireebob!

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Freedom isn't free.

Lucky you!

Hopefully Arizona98tj will offer some insight. He graduated distinguished at Front Sight.

From the rifle course?

I've graduated Distinguished Graduate twice from the pistol course. Front Sight really is a great school.

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Freedom isn't free.

Yes, rifle.

Post 13.

I usually buy XM193

My suggestion is that you use the rifle that you consider your primary defense weapon. The course is about training for defense, isn't it? Why use a rifle in the course that would not be your "go to" rifle?

Sweet! How did I miss that? I posted right after him.

That's a good point. I don't really consider these guns to be defense guns, even though they are. They are more of a hobby gun to me.

Of course, we do have some wildlife around here that can be hazardous and this would be the right tool should it ever become necessary.

I'm leaning toward the 16" with the EOTech. I just like it and I do seem to group a tiny bit better with it.

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Freedom isn't free.

That's not what you want to be saying at Front Sight.

16" with Eotech is a very capable platform. I sight mine in at 50yds because the run-n-gun stuff I do takes place from 7yds to a couple hundred tops. I don't know what you will encounter at Front Sight. My long distance rifle (not an AR) is zeroed at 100, but the targets are all between 100 and 800 to 1000yds or so. I was amazed at what the Eotech could do.

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Fight socialism. Never stop.

This.

If it's like the class I took, you'll be shooting in all sorts of positions, under and next to obstacles, on the move, etc. Open sight type red dot / holo is nearly mandatory.