I just looked over my new M&P 15 sport i got as a gift for christmas and noticed the barrel is stamped 5.56 nato 1/9,that's not what i bought.i bought a rifle labeled 1 in 8 twist, 5R rifling on the sticker wrapped around the gun.s&w closed for christmas i'll call them when they open back up.i think i got ripped off by s&w,i hope they will fix the mistake any word on the street?

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Pretty sure theyll.make it right. No need to get drastically upset over it.

What he said^

S&W hasn't issued a 15-Sport with the Thompson Center 1:8 5R progressive gain twist barrel in a couple years. Production switched to the 1:9 barrels for a while now. Specs are on the website.

Product: Model M&P15 Sport?

^ Link to current 15-Sport specs.

The only way to get a 15-Sport with a 1:8 5R barrel is to find new old stock or buy a used 15-Sport. Either S&W never updated the label they stick on the handguard for presentation, or someone at packaging grabbed a stack of old labels that didn't get destroyed.

Where did you buy the rifle? I'd take it back to them and point out the discrepancy. I hate to say this, but be prepared to just return the rifle to the LGS for a refund. The gun store has pull with the distributor who then has pull with S&W. You can call S&W, but I'm not sure what they'll do for you.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I own an early production run 15-Sport with the 1:8 5R barrel. I'll debate the theoretical superiority of the 1:8 5R barrel to no end on the forum. I'll say the 1:8 twist rate lets me shoot a wider variety of ammo. I'll say the 5R rifling and progressive gain twist deforms the projectile less than traditional rifling, making my 15-Sport more accurate than new 15-Sports. Theoretically, I'm right.

BUT

Practical difference between a 1:8 5R barrel and a 1:9? None. My marksmanship skill level won't ever eke out the minute performance difference. I'll prove it. Here's a target shot at 100 yards, using cheap 55gr steel case TulAmmo, with a budget rifle build 1:9 CMV (non lined) 13" barreled AR-15.

Back when I was still new to all of this. The rear sight was the stock A2 chopped rear sight the 15-Sports were originally issued.


Here's the target.





If my ****** no-name budget build with irons can do that, a new production 16" barreled 1:9 15-Sport has the potential to do better. Heck my 15-Sport with the 1:8 5R barrel can't do better in my hands.

It sucks that you thought you were getting a 1:8 5R barrel. I can sympathize. I'd be upset. I'd make a call to S&W and the LGS. I'm just saying that you still got one heck of a rifle with the current production run 15-Sport.

Back in the day when all of us 15-Sport owners were getting ragged on by every AR-15 forum on the internet but this one, none of us could understand why S&W would drop in a Thompson Center barrel into the base model in their lineup. We just forked over our $500 and said thanks.

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-John

I don't think it's anything to worry about. My rifle is 1 to 9 and it shoots just fine. Here is a target shot at 100 yds with an EOTech XPS-2, 60 grain Hornady bullets on top of 24 grains of AR Comp powder. The hits outside of the red were shot with my iron sights. Oh, and I am shooting the M&P15 Piston rifle......

I have seen a recent shipment with some 1/8 5R barreled guns thrown in the mix. It was only a few of them out of a large shipment.

It's not a common thing to get a 5R barrel these days and they likely threw some in to complete orders.

The current specs are on the site:
Product: Model M&P15 Sport?

There's not much practical difference between the two performance wise, as others have mentioned.

If they did anything wrong it was putting that label on the rifle.

Yup. If I bought a can of soup labeled chicken and got split pea, Id' be ticked off. S&W put the wrong label on it. Most likely the OP will be offered a refund.

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-John

Op your wrong, it is what you bought. Most shops have signs saying all sales are final. Its up to you to inspect the gun and make sure it's the correct model before paying for it. If this was a gift from someone else then the lgs might work with you but I wouldn't count on it, once its sold its used. I wouldn't expect S&W to do to much about it, its just a labeling error. All the correct and current specs are posted on their website and match your rifle. Rather than being stoked about a bad *** new rifle your busy worrying about bs twist rate, nice.

I wonder if the OP got a new rifle from a reliable gun shop or if he got scammed? Some shooters are convinced that the 5R barrels are superior and will pay extra.

I agree with JaPes that if they are superior, the average shooter will never know the difference. I've got an old Bushmaster CMP with a 1:9 barrel that will shoot sub-1/2" groups off the bench with regularity. I doubt a 5R would do better. I suggest he shoot his first before calling Smith.

Well this is more.like getting chicken soup with chunks of beef and not chicken. It's not like he got a totally different rifle : ) I was just telling him to calm down as it was just the barrel and it was Christmas. Not too much of a thing to ruin ones day over.

I personally have AR's with 1/7, 1/8 and 1/9 barrels, I shoot fairly well and use my hand loads as well as commercial ammo of different weights. Some rifles shoot better for me, twist not being a factor as I cannot say all my 1/8's are better, etc. it just seems some rifles shoot better than others. My Sport 1/9 is a tack driver by the way.

I new going into my purchase that I wasnt getting the 5R 1/8 gun. I can tell you with absolute confidence that you will NEVER know the difference. Mine shoots into 1/2" all day every day. One big hole!

I honestly dont know how you could possibly do better with the 5R barrel.

65 grain gamekings with varget barely make a cloverleaf. Unless you can put 10 shots into a single hole I wouldnt worry about it - NOT ONE BIT!

This whole comment is completely incorrect and is frankly mean spirited.

The OP wanted a gun with a 1:8 twist. He bought a gun that was marked as such. It shouldn't require a microscopic inspection to discover that the gun is not what was advertised. Further, to suggest that he should have looked up the specs on the internet is ludicrous. In fact, I see more specs wrong on the internet than I do in labeling on the package. Yes, even on the manufacturer's website.

He has every right to be upset about this. It is indeed like buying a can of chicken soup only to find it filled with beef.

Then to say that he's, "worrying about bs twist rate" is beyond rude. Just because you don't care about it doesn't mean he doesn't care about it.

This is not a case of a guy buying an M&P Sport and opening the box only to find a Mini-14 in there. No, he has every right to be upset. Regardless of what we think, this is a clear case of false advertising. It doesn't matter if the gun shoots OK. It doesn't matter if we think it's fine. He wanted a particular thing. He looked for exactly that and when he found it, he bought it. Then he discovered it wasn't that thing later because of the false information on the box. Yeah, I'd be unhappy too.

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Freedom isn't free.

I would go back to the place of purchase and either get a refund or a rifle with the correct barrel. The OP wanted 1:8, made an agreement to buy a firearm that the stickers and packaging said was 1:8, and paid for a rifle that was supposed to be 1:8.

Regardless of the fact that there is little difference in capability between a 1:8 and a 1:9, there is a difference and it is not what the OP wanted or paid for. I would have been upset as well.

Both are true-
A gun should be accurately advertised.
A gun should be properly inspected by buyer prior to transfer.
Some sellers will take a gun back.
Some sellers will not-- Gun Sales Are Final signs are common.

If the seller will not remedy the situation to your satisfaction, I would contact SW and with humble polite explains the story. They may offer to put a 5R barrel on it.

Regardless of performance, the 1-8 5R barrel is considered a selling point compared to typical 1-7/9 barrels.

Good luck.

Two things:

1: I once bought a pair of shoes labeled "Size 9" and got home to find one 9 and one 8 1/2. It was my bad, but they made it right.

2: I'd rather have the Mini 14 . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Where did the op go? Any resolution today? Btw, just curious, op said MP 15 was a gift given but also stated he bought it. So was it given, bought or self bought gift. Again this doesn't really matter. No matter which barrel the op has he will never out shoot it. I would like to say I've mastered my national match service rifles...but not. The have different twist rates and are more accurate than I am. Note to self - practice more!

Anything should be accurately advertised, it's the law. The shoe analogy is apt. However, it's not common for a barrel to have the twist rate stamped on it. In the AR world it is, but not for most other guns. If he is new to the world of ARs, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't see it until he got home. It's not something commonly looked for.

In fact, if it weren't stamped on the barrel, most of us would never know. Have you ever checked the twist rate in any of your guns? Do you even know how? I'll bet most users don't check and don't know how.

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Freedom isn't free.

Exactly! Unless you are at the highest level shooting target competition it doesn't really matter.

I've been shooting for better than 40 years, and I don't understand twist. But as we say 'round here, there's a lid for every pot . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I agree that the op deserves to get what he thought he bought as was advertised. He has a right to that. Just nothing to get extremely upset about on Christmas! There are far more things worse which couldve happened. Just trying to put it in perspective.

Hopefully he gets things worked out.

From the posts I have read, they no longer have the 1:8 twist barrels on the Sport, and they have not have for quite some time.

It seems, as catalogs so often say, that the "specifications changed without notice."

Since they were "subject to change without notice," I would be surprised if S&W did anything for you, but who knows.

When the military changed to the 62 grain bullets, the twist changed to 1:7, and then someone figured out that 1:9 was remarkably better. Exactly what use there is for a 1:8 is beyond me, but if the OP just had to have 1:8, I imagine that is impossible, as I would be surprised if S&W had any of the old barrels left.

I will be very anxious to hear the response of S&W, the OP's reaction to that response, and exactly what, if anything gets done.

Please follow up and let us know.

Thank you.

And, welcome to the Forum!

Twist rate is the number of inches it takes for the rifling to make one complete turn. Thus, 1:9 is 1 turn in 9 inches of barrel. And, 1:7 is 1 turn in 7 inches of barrel.

Different bullet weights stabilize best at different rates.

The twist rate was not given much thought in the AR rifles until the US Military adopted the fantastic new 62 grain bullet to replace the terrible old 55 grain bullet in the 5.56 ammo. The rate changed to 1:7, a faster twist, which stabilizes the 62 grain bullet better.

I hope that helps.

I guess I should have been clearer. Not only do I not understand twist rate, it's never come up in my hunting or general shooting activities. I hit what I shoot at . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well, the military hasn't gone back to .308 yet even though I think they should. Maybe you meant 62gr bullets? Even at that, they still use 55gr bullets at least that's what I've seen at the air base.

Twist rate is very important. The original M16 had a very slow twist rate of 1:12 or 1:14; I don't remember which. Then people began to realize that a faster twist rate helped stabilize the bullet better.

1:9 seems to be optimum for the 55gr bullets, but works fine with 62gr. 1:7 seems to be better for the heavier bullets like the 75gr stuff. Spin the light bullets too fast and they start to tumble in flight. Spin the heavier ones too slow and they start to tumble. It's really a game of matching bullet weight, twist rate and length of barrel.

The 1:8 seemed to get the best compromise. Thus it works OK with 55-75gr bullets with 55gr and 62gr being best.

Meh, in the end you'll just have to test with your own gun to see what you like. Me, I don't care as long as I can shoot a 2" group at 100 yards.

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Freedom isn't free.

I've never heard of a deal that won't take back a firearm that was sold with a misrepresentation. If they don't take it back they'll at least get in contact with the manufacturer to send in the old and receive a new one. In fact w lgs will even do it with a used gun within 30 days. They'll send it out on your behalf and make sure it gets fixed.

From reading the previous posts, it appears that the problem with your solution is that what the OP ordered may not be available. What's the proper resolution for that? I don't have a clue.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The 1:8 twist, 5R rifled barrel is still standard on the 15T.

I get all the "I want what I bought" and it always stinks to get things home and not have what you thought you purchased.

With respect to the specifications, there are disclaimers all over the place about reserving the right to change specs at any time, blah, blah, blah... Again, that doesn't take the sting out of things but it could make some local consumer law "kick in" should you have to get to that point (depends on your State and all the other circumstances).

I tried to keep up with this thread but I may have missed something. DISCLAIMER - I'm relatively new (3 years) to all this and have only bought from big box stores and my nephew who owns a shop out of state BUT got the same questions from the receiving FFL.

Every firearm I've bought has the model/serial number on the box as well as the firearm and the seller validated the box info with the weapon as the NICs paperwork was completed and asked me to do the same. Was this done? Just checking to see if maybe something got switched.

I know grasping at straws and I'm NOT trying to minimize things.

Also, with respect to exchanging shoes or contents of soup cans, as much as it sucks, if a store has a policy posted such as no returns, then it's the buyer's problem. Most States do have consumer laws limiting/requiring things like store credit for return, ... but you'll have to check your State and all the seller's posted policies. I once had to pay a 20% restocking fee for an expensive auto part because I didn't pay attention.

In this case, I believe the sales receipt is your contract and if the model/serial number match on the receipt and the weapon, that's what you agreed to buy. Again, I feel the pain (see next paragraph).

Having just survived a damaged weapon purchase because I failed to completely inspect things during the purchase, I get it. I hastily bought a mini 14 and got home to a cracked hand guard, a "dinged" receiver, and a couple smaller items. In my case I got most everything perfect by calling the manufacturer. I'm probably going to just live with some cosmetic damage I missed.

So back to you. What was the seller's response? Did I miss it in this thread?

I'm also curious as to what S&W's response to the OP was or will be. My advice is happy, positive, and polite for the call. I can't believe S&W won't help resolve this to the satisfaction of all parties. Just remember, most are protected by wrong specifications on print material, especially when the caliber and twist are stamped on the barrel. Like buying a car, there should be an over abundance of diligence performed when purchasing a firearm (IMO).

Sorry and hope it turns out to your satisfaction. When I get a customer screaming at me telling me they have rights, I try to find out just how limiting their rights are and treat them accordingly. When someone explains their mistake or our common misunderstanding, I try to resolve the problem with them!!!!

YIKES this turned out to be a long post!

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

Not every LGS is the same. The bigger privately owned LGS in the area is all sales final, new or used. I have one last shot to inspect the firearm before I certify the 4473 just before accepting the firearm. Used guns are as-is.

Some gun stores are more accommodating than others.

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-John

smokindog,

As I see it, there were several points where the ball was dropped.

1. S&W put the wrong label on the firearm. It passed final packaging inspection. FAIL.

2. The personnel at the gun store who received the shipment didn't pay attention. FAIL.

3. The OP didn't fully inspect the firearm prior to completing the sale and accepting the firearm.

At each of these points, the mistake could have been caught. While the OP isn't the original cause of the problem, the OP could have prevented his own problem with some firearms purchasing common sense.

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-John

I think that is what I was trying to explain. Caveat Emptor

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

Kinda what I was thinking

Probably some amigos in charge of putting correct tags on the rifle.......

Op-I apologize if my comment came across mean spirted. I tend to be blunt.  Hopefully you get it worked out. Happy holidays everyone!

I can see all sales final being good but it's also kind of ridiculous to think that he needs to check out every little thing. Much like buying a car, do you check the 1000 things it says it comes with? At some point there is some burden on the seller. Hopefully we hear on what s&w says on monday

And what exactly do you mean by that?

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-John

Anybody notice that the OP has not responded? Anybody notice that this thread contains his one and only post?

I'm just about ready to declare another first post troll. They seem to come out of the woodwork whenever school is in recess.

I still want to know how he came into possession of this supposedly misrepresented rifle.

We may never know.

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-John

There is a good chance they are closed until after Jan. 1 due to the Christmas holiday.

I would think they like most other businesses would at least be open the 29 and 30th

Could be you're right, but threads are often useful to others. There's likely some folks reading this who will benefit by more closely inspecting the next gun they buy.

My hunch is that the OP is sincere and would have been well served if he had read a thread like this before he bought the gun.

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In any event, if y'all see a thread/post that you believe violates Forum rules or intent, click the Report button rather than creating a public post. The Mods will take it from there. Thanks.

While I believe in the concept of "buyer beware" I don't think it applies in this case. The soup can is the most obvious example. If the can says chicken on it and it has beef inside, the seller cannot then claim that they had a sign saying no returns and you're just out of luck.

In the US we have a Federal Trade Commission. We also have "Truth In Advertising" laws. So, if you advertise a rifle, you can't then put a fish in a sealed box and tell the customer to eat it when they open the box at home. Any time something is misrepresented, you have the right to return it or claim some other compensation.

This is true even if the vendor/store states that they don't accept returns. The key here is misrepresentation. The packaging says 1:8 twist rifle. If the gun does not than have 1:8 twist, it was misrepresented and the buyer has the right to have it fixed, exchanged or refunded. In this case it even goes a little deeper because it fundamentally changes the way the product works.

What if it said Troy Folding Sights on the package but had BCM folding sights instead? The dealer could claim that they perform the same function and you'll have to live with it. However, with twist rate, no matter what people say about how it's OK, it does affect how the bullet flies. So, it is a fundamental difference and again is falsely advertised. This gives the consumer certain rights.

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Freedom isn't free.

The difference being the buyer had the opportunity and the responsibility to inspect the contents. The actual product was properly labeled. To relate it to the soup example, it's not the can that is mis-labeled, it's the sign on the display.

We'll have to agree to disagree here...

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

It seems to me the MAJOR item in the OP's favor is the S&W supplied sticker on the firearm.

It seems to me that most LGS's "all sales are final" policies (I would hope) are there simply as an out/escape clause for them. "I'd like to return this (dirty) firearm even though I bought it new and 'haven't fired it.'" gives the LGS an out if things look fishy. That doesn't mean they have to choose to abide by the policy for every single sale. If one does choose to abide by this policy in this situation I'd likely add them to my "Never Do Business With Again" list.

I think it's more than reasonable for a buyer to assume that a factory-supplied piece of documentation on the item itself accurately represents the item. If the window sticker on a new car says the car has halogen headlights I shouldn't have to inspect it beyond that to determine if that's true. And even if someone says I won't be able to tell the difference between regular and halogen headlights - it doesn't matter. The fact is I want halogen and that's what I wanted to buy. Whether others think that's a reasonable desire is completely irrelevant.

I've heard great things about S&W customer service. I certainly hope they'd take care of it.

OR

Yes, in the case of the soup, the contents cannot be examined. However, to what level should the buyer accomplish this inspection?

Like I said previously, most rifles don't have the twist rate stamped on the barrel. So, in my opinion, it's not reasonable to expect that a person, new to the AR style gun, would even know to look at the barrel.

How 'bout this scenario:
You go to buy a 16" barreled AR. When you get home you pull out the tape measure and find it's an 18" barrel. Is that cause to return it?

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Freedom isn't free.

Update,waiting for S&W to open back up jan 2, 2015 closed for holiday. Thank you all for the feed back...a couple things ,this is my 1st forum and 1st gun so i'm not with the program yet sorry!

I see the op is still mia. Rastoff, I agree with most of what you are saying, however the op said he bought a 1/8 barrel not a 1/9. Again whether it was a gift or he bought it I'm still not clear on. However based on what he stated knew the difference which tells me he's not new to AR's. I could be wrong. And I also think there is something bogus with this post to begin with. "whats the word on the street?". What does that mean?

PRESUMING I can inspect the product, .....

Depends if the barrel was stamped 18"! Also depends if the standard product had been modified to 18" as the standard spec.

We can make up all kinds of hypotheticals but I'd prefer to stay with the facts as presented for this discussion.

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

No, in fact he posted a reply just 17 minutes before you did. He said it's his first gun. So, he may have researched it, but that doesn't mean he knew the barrel was stamped until he got it home.

Yes, your right. I want to stay with the presented facts as well. The labeling on the gun was 1:8 twist which is what he wanted. It was labeled wrong and he didn't notice until he got it home. I think a refund or exchange is in order. If I owned a shop and a customer came to me with this exact issue, I'd either replace it, send it to S&W for repair or refund his money. I don't see it as unreasonable.

If he came in and simply said he didn't like it, tough.

EDIT: If the customer has fired the gun, all bets are off.

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Freedom isn't free.