Like Eotech or Aimpoint (or other popular quality brands) without magnification devices? I'm curious as I have never used one before, actually never even seen one besides in pictures.

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-Roger

Depends on the shooter and the size of the dot. A 1MOA dot will be much easier to shoot well at 400 yards than a 5MOA dot.

I happen to feel we over power ourselves when we put optics on our rifles. My longest shots on game have been at 400+ yards with a variable scope set on 2x.

I'd say it's a matter of what you want to be able to see. Obviously no red dot is going to give you equivalent precision to, say a good 3-9x scope...

But I run two that sort of qualify. The first is one of those little $95 Bushnell TRS-25 1x red dots on a 15-22. I shoot it quite a lot as an understudy to 5.56. The 3 MOA dot works ok for me out to 200 yards, covering 6" of a silhouette target.

The other is a TA-33 ACOG (3X) with a 4 MOA red dot in a horseshoe reticle. The dot is intended for use out to 200 yards...top of dot is 100, bottom is 200, and 300 is the top of a vertical post below those.

I also use a 4 MOA amber triangle reticle, which with a 50 yard zero give a trajectory that is usable out to 250 yards or so.

I'd say they're at their best from contact distance to 200 or so yards. The 3 MOA dot works best for me.

And that little Bushnell sight is a good performer and one heckuva bargain.

I've shot my eotech to about 250M with my AR. Able to hit a pistol silhouette target fairly easy.

It depends on your eyesight and reticle... for example, the Eotech 557 has dots for holdover out to 600 meters. I doubt that I could easily identify a target at 600 meters with my eyesight.

This really sums it up. The red dot sight saves your eyes the work of pushing front sight and rear sight into one plane, but without magnification you can still only see as far as your eyes will let you, plus on the less expensive models, you lose some light since red dot sights don't gather light like a good scope, and in less than ideal lighting conditions that is a limiting factor. I have been in last-light situations where I could still see a deer clearly with the naked eye but did not feel confident in taking a shot through my (admittedly not top-of-the-line) red dot sight.

I don't believe I would be shooting past 300 yards.

Is a red dot sight a good option to pull double-duty on an AR15 type rifle? Meaning close-in (home defense) and targets/varmints out to a few hundred yards?

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-Roger

1x red dot is designed for fast target acquisition. Unlimited field of view and eye relief. I use mine as an offhand shooting point and click aiming device 0--250.

Can you see those targets/varmints out to a few hundred yards without magnification?

I use a red dot on a rifle for hogs, but my shots are no more than 100 yards... typically about 50 yards.

As Phil indicated, they are designed for fast target acquisition, not really precision shooting. They can be used for hitting a man sized target at 300 yards, but doubt you would hit a prairie dog consistently at that distance without magnification.

For me, about 80 yards.

100 yards on a good day.

I'm getting to the point in life where I need magnification to reliably hit anything past that. Getting old(er) rules!

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

As noted, size of dot. Also size of target, contrast between target and surroundings, available light and time. How big are the vermin you plan to shoot? Quality of the sight figures into this along with the adjustments on the brightness. The dots tend to bloom (grow apparently larger in size) if overly bright for the lighting and target contrast.

With a properly sighted in dot type sight, you can safely assume the bullet strike will be within the dot or very close to it at practical ranges.

Red dot sights are very popular for hunting in some areas of the world. You don't need a 3-9 scope to whack deer sized game at 50 yards.

In theory, as far as you can shoot iron sights. Eyesight is the first limiting factor. As noted you can't hit what you can't see. Some degree of trade off in the size of the dot /other retecule. Really large dot somewhat quicker at pistol distances, 1 moa -ish more precise a longer distances.

Back in the day , say 1950's into early '60s , a fixed 2.5-2.75X scope was still considered an all around big game scope.

I was influenced at impressionable age by my father , who was more than a bit of an at least selective throwback himself. For him, a 4X was a long range scope , making first shot hits on game at 700 + yds.

I really like a good 2.5X scope.enought magnification for 200yd plus shots , yetwide field of view for fast aquisition at anything beyond room distances. It won't be the perminent set up , but for the moment have a 2.5X mounted on 10.5in AR .

I fully agree with this. I just pulled the trigger on a PA 2.5X and think it will be perfect. Enough magnification to see at greater distances, but not so much as to lose field of vision up closer.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

For me, 100 yards with a 3 MOA Bushnell TRS-25 is pushing it.

1x red dot also helps with older eyes.

At about 40 I began to struggle with irons on my recreational guns. 1x red dot made shooting a pleasure again. Just focus down range and the dot is there.

I'm good to about 200 yds. on a clear day.

When we move out of town to our 40 acre property, we will have some animals. Chickens, pigs, horses, maybe goats & a couple cows. There are coyotes in the area, also raccoons, jackrabbits, etc. My property is basically a 1320 x 1320 foot square, don't believe I'll be shooting at anything off my property.

Sounds like I need to look into a 1MOA 1x red dot. Any suggestions for a good one?

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-Roger

I think a scope with some magnification would be better suited for your use.

The Eotech has a 1 MOA dot that is centered in a 65 MOA circle to assist with quick acquisition of the dot. I'm not sure, but I think the smallest dot that Aimpoint offers is a 2 MOA, which is still very good... however the disadvantage to a reticle with a small dot only is that it is harder to pick up the dot, especially in bright daylight.

I bet that if you go with the red dot, you will end up looking at a magnifier to go behind it at some point, which means you should have went with a low power scope to begin with, IMO.

My thinking on an AR is that it is a battle rifle.

Shooting offhand, I want to be able to bring the rifle up, put the dot on a 16in plate at 200yds and click all within about second or so, then engage multiple targets from 50 to 100. Don't really care where the bullet strikes steel as long as it does. Optic is on 24/7/365 never off other than battery change every few years, never adjust optic, never use holdover, just pick up the rifle point and click. I use an Aimpoint H1. Others prefer EOTech. We're talking battle rifle. I live in the woods. Someone living in the desert would likely have a different opinion about it.

For those who want to shoot from a supported position and make tight groups on paper, a magnified optic is the way to go.

Hunting depends on what and where you're hunting.

OK, you've got a 1/4 mile square. Wooded? Hilly? Pool table flat & cleared?

To reach out for threatening 'yotes in a pasture, an AR is a decent option-terrain permitting. Coons and jacks are barnyard pests, a .22 lr in rifle or pistol would probably be better.

I've been using Aimpoints for 30 years and still have my original and it's still in use. The PRO (patrol rifle optic) is hard to beat given all it's features and the price. If you look around you can find it around or under $400. The 9000 series short version can be found for substantially under that but doesn't have the years long constant on battery life. If I hadn't got a really good deal on a PRO, I'd have gone for the 9000SC(?).

Cheap optics can cost you way more in the long run. Saving bucks on a sight and hitting your livestock instead of the 'yote because the point of impact changed is false economy-and hard to explain to the wife.

BTW, scopes can be a decent choice, but unless you spend major bucks for an illuminated reticle (or massive objective), you're limited in low light situations. Vermin generally don't care about time of day. You may also want to look a light mounts- game regs generally don't apply when protecting livestock.

Shooting at distance is easier said than done with a non magnified optic. Tough to shoot what you can't see.

I shoot my suppressed Savage .22LR at 300yd steel target. It's a lot of fun, particularly with a good breeze.



Do you see the steel plate?

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My property is flat & cleared. It's currently in pasture.

I already have a scope on my rifle. It's a Sig 556ER, and I put a Bushnell 3-12x40 on it. It has a 16" barrel with 1:7 twist.


It works great as it is. But I have been reading about the benefits of AR type carbines in home defense roles. Obviously a non-magnified red dot is a better choice for such a role.

Having never touched or used any red dot, I seek advice from my fellow forum members. And I thank you guys for your help.

I also have a scoped Ruger 10-22, a scoped Winchester M70 30-06, and a scoped Browning BAR II .300WM. Instead of having 2 or 3 rifles on standby for critter defense (2 or 4 legged), I thought my Sig 556ER might be able to pull double-duty with the proper optic.

I'll be 43 in a couple of months, and so far my eyesight is pretty good. Obviously each optic choice has its own Pros & Cons.

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-Roger

Here is a video for sighting in an AR at different distances.
The shooter uses Iron Sights, but the distances apply to optics also.


I learned how to sight in an M16 in the military and the distance was 25 meters for a Combat Zero.

I also learned that if you could hit a Can of C-Rat Ham and Limas at 50 yards your CAR-15 had a combat zero. The only thing Ham and Lima's were good for was trading to the natives and targets.

Rule 303

The only red dot I know of that has a 1MOA dot is the EOTech.

Technically the ACOG isn't a red dot, it's a fixed power magnified scope. Also, I thought the horseshoe reticle had a 2MOA dot.

None of that matters though, the ACOG is a great optic and will do what the OP wants.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have opted for one of these:


I have caved into the reality that I just can't see like I used to. This scope is a 1-4x24. 1x for close up work, but 4x for those longer shots. I would rather have bought an Elcan, but the $2K+ price tag was just a little too much.

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Freedom isn't free.

Exactly what I thought of mine after getting the EXPS2. It's like shooting a laser - no need for holdovers just point and BANG.

In the terrain I will be shooting - there are so many trees and brush that shots past 100m are not common. I like sneaking up on stuff. I got my first hog kill with a 30-30 Remington, open sights, and hit the hog on the run in only two shots. I was ecstatic. With a holographic Eotech, just place the big circle on a running hog and squeeze the trigger.

[QUOTE=ChattanoogaPhil;138432949]My thinking on an AR is that it is a battle rifle. /QUOTE]

I disagree. There is so much aftermarket support that you can build an AR platform to suit just about any use. I had one built years ago that can outshoot me any day.It's amazingly accurate and utterly reliable.My brother in law likes to tape stuff on a target to see if we can hit it.This was with a 5 shot magazine from 100 yards.

quarter.jpg

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1st smiles,lies.Last,gunfire.

[quote=F75gunslinger;138560132]Looks like you got close 4 times!

That's exactly the point though, isn't it? This is about using red dots. Generally, the red dot isn't considered a precision optic, but a quick acquisition optic. So, for this particular use, thinking like a battle rifle is correct.

I've opted to split the difference. This is why I went with a 1-4x24 scope. I can use it at 1x for rapid target acquisition and at 4x for shooting things the size of a quarter. They're fun either way.

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Freedom isn't free.

With a 1X red dot on my former EoTech Maybe 100 yards. Replaced it with a Nightforce NXS 1-4X20 with a FC-2 reticle which can function as a red dot when illuminated and set at 1X and has the added benefit of magnification up to 4X which is useful to 250 yards for me.

Just put a Switch-to-Side 3X magnifier behind an EoTech EXPS and it will be good from 0-300 m (or more for younger eyes). That is what is on both my 5.56 and .300 BKT ARs.

I'm with Rastoff and samnev, I put a 1-4x with illuminated reticle on my AR. Its a versatile setup, capable of quick close-up work with plenty of magnification for coyotes at 300 yards.

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Paul

I love red dot sights, and use them for quick acquisition of up close and personal work. Distance? Get a scope!

"What is the effective range of a typical red dot sight"

It is ALL ABOUT your eyes when using a Red Dot. If you can see it, you can shoot it. I am lucky, I am in my late 40's and my eyes are still good so I think a red dot on a AR is the perfect optic for 5.56 rifle.

On our property I shoot two different sized steel targets with my AR's. Small (8in wide X 11in tall, think head shot) and Large (18in wide X 24in tall). The larger target is a full size IPSC so man sized torso.

I can hit the small target standing out to 100 yards consistently. Past that it gets hard to be consistent unless I get support. I can shoot it consistently at 200 with support (prone or using a barrier). In fact this is the target we use with the AR and other rifles out to 200 yards to practice for deer hunting as its basically the size of the vitals box on a deer. We sit up in a deer stand that has a rail for support and hit this target setup at 200 yards. Past that with a red dot and it starts to get hard to see, especially once the white paint gets shot off it and its grey. When its grey it starts to blend into the background.

I can hit the larger target with my AR, standing, out to 200 yards. Past that I use support. My property only allows out to 400 yards without tree's, barn or whatever getting in the way. We easily hit the target at 400 with red dots when shooting supported. I just place the red dot at the top middle of the target and drop of the 5.56 round hits about the middle of the target at 400 yards. I could probably use the same method out to 600?, if I could see the target.

The big thing to remember with a Red dot is that is has NO eye relief. So it is great for fast up close shooting. Any magnified optic is going to have eye relief so it will be slower and not work great at close range. IMHO I would never use a 1x4 or any other magnified optic on a AR for home defense.

The comment about a red dot on a AR being perfect for a battle rifle is exactly how I fee. 0-200 yards head shot, 0-300, 400, 500, 600? with a red dot minute of man.

I have shot soda and silly string cans at 200 yard on top of a 55 gallon drum with my Sport using a Eotech. It took a few shots but when you hit them you knew it, especially the silly string.

You also have to remember that with a typical 55grain 5.56 round is starts to lose its ability to tumble and frag past 200 yards and that is out of a 20inch barrel, from a 16inch its probably past 150 yards. Point being at ranges like 400 yards it is a fast 22 that pokes a 22 hole.

Scopes are becoming popular on AR's, especially the 1x4, 6, 8 because of 3gun games. For that application, shooting static paper/steel targets at various ranges out to some good distance the 1X is great option. I don't agree with that for a home defense AR.

What I do find really odd is when people put a scope on a SBR AR. Scoping a 10.5inch AR does what???? Unless you are using some expensive rounds a bullet coming out of a 10.5 inch barrel won't tumble and frag past 25 yards if at all. Putting a scope on it so you can shoot it long distance from a 10.5 inch barrel???? To each his own.

I have a Eotech 2.0 on my Sport and a Aimpoint Comp M4s on my BCM. Both are great. The Eotech has a smaller 1.0 MOA dot so it is a tad bit more precise over the Aimpoints 2 MOA dot, but it really does not matter for what I am shooting at. I personally think the Aimpoint Comp M4s is currently the finest red dot made. It is a TANK and with a Lithium AA battery the red dot can stay on for 8 years. The only negative of the Comp M4s is price, at over $700.

At night, point it to the sky, and if you can see stars...

IT'S PRETTY DAMN FAR!!!

Why not just put a scope on top and a red dot on a 45 degree mount or on the top of the scope. I would do the 45 off the rail as I think the dot on top of the scope is just to high off the barrel. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

You are going to love it.

I have 3 S&W Sports. Two have that optic, and the third one will when I've saved my pennies for another optic.

One drawback just so you don't get surprised...battery life sucks. If you forget to turn it off you'll replace the battery every time you use the optic. Fortunately the reticule is etched and works without illumination iof you need to.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22