Well, for one reason or another I just haven't had the opportunity to get out and shoot my M&P15 TS which I purchased back in January.

So, today a buddy and I got together to send a few down range and it was my first chance to do so with a new 3" 686+ alongside the TS.

The first test shot with the TS, (about 100 ft), was just slightly off...a tad low and to the right.

Second round, nothing. Just a click. Ammo was new Wolf Gold (brass) 55gr .223

Dropped the magazine, checked and observed that there was a round seated with no hit on the primer. Pulled the charging handle back fully, round was not extracted. Let the bolt go forward, pulled the trigger, click again but no fire. After this second attempt I could no longer pull back the charging handle no matter how I tried...nor could I separate the upper from the lower.

Went back home, called S&W and naturally the first thing I told them was that I couldn't send them the rifle with a live round in it unless I could get it out. They recommended going to a gunsmith or to the local sheriff's office to have it addressed.

When I asked them to give me an alternative before I did that they suggested taking a rubber mallet to the charging handle to see if I could get it unstuck while pulling back on the lever.

Did this several times without joy and terminated the call to S&W. Went back out on my deck and gave it one last try and got it. The round ejected normally and as I thought, no primer hit.

So, it'll be off to Massachusetts tomorrow. (I didn't bother stripping it and examining it further at that point.)

I probably should have broken down the rifle and extracted the round once I realized it hadn't fired the first time...but other than that boneheaded move on my part, can some of you more experienced users give me an idea what the usual culprits are for this?

(I had field stripped, cleaned and lubed the rifle after purchase. (I did not disassemble the extractor or ejector, however.)

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Do a search in this forum, if I'm not mistaken this same issue around 3-4 months ago had pages of dialog about this same thing. I'll look and see if I can find the link.

HELP! .223 round jammed on top of the bolt


This is similar to what happened to you, not exactly but still a lot of information that may be of use to you.
Good luck.
Rich

Thanks, Rich, I'll give it a look.

I should have mentioned that I did a function test after I stripped, cleaned, lubed and reassembled the TS and all appeared to be in order at that point.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Just read it, Rich, and while it does share some similarities, as you say, the difference is that in this instance the round seemed to have been fully forward and seated. When I pulled the trigger I heard the click but no bang. I dropped the magazine and was able to pull the charging handle back once and locked the bolt back. (Which is the point I blame myself for not making the attempt at disassembling and removing the round manually.) But when I let it go forward and it failed to fire again, that's when I could no longer cycle the charging handle. Nor could I disassemble at that juncture.

I don't see how another round would have come into play since no other dropped out at any point and when I was finally able to get the charging handle to the rear the seated round was the only one extracted.

I'm sure I screwed up by not stopping and remedying the situation earlier but I'm still confused about what caused the jam or prevented the firing pin from striking the primer.

EDITED TO ADD:

I just emptied the magazine and there were 28 rounds remaining. No double feed. I'm sure I loaded 30. I had put them out in groups of 5 before loading.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I think you are doing the right thing by sending it back to S&W to let them have a look. It could be nothing, but at least it will give you peace of mind.

The no primer strike is a concern. Have you taken out the BCG and looked at the firing pin? I'm far from being an expert, but I would look at the group, check out the extractor and see if something is in the way of the firing pin preventing it from moving forward.

Headspace? Did bolt close and lugs engage?
I bought two uppers (not S&W) at a gun show a while back, and was going to shoot them last week, but a little voice kept saying "check headspace , no, don't shoot until you check headspace". A number of people pooh-poohed my concerns, saying "It's all mil spec, it's OK" I listened to my little voice. One of the uppers would not close on the GO gauge. That one is at the smith for chamber reaming.
Will another brand of ammo work? I never trusted Al or steel cased ammo.
I expect better from S&W, but it might be worth checking headspace before you send it back, just for the info..

It's already boxed and ready to send so I won't be fooling with it but in googling around I found this book and on page 233 it discusses a situation where the round's shoulders were too short making it too deep for the firing pin to hit and too far seated for the extractor to remove. (Though it did finally extract in my own case.)

I appreciate all the thoughts and info but will happy to have S&W look into it as I know just enough to be dangerous to the health of the firearm.

Please keep the info flowing, however, as I am very interested in learning more about the nuances and peculiarities of this platform.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I'm sorry you're having trouble. I'm sure S&W will fix her up for you.

In the future, you can just disassemble the upper from the lower. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, push out the take down and pivot pins. You may have to use a punch and a light tap with a hammer. Once both pins are out, you should be able to separate the two parts. Once apart, the BCG should be easy to remove. Then you can inspect for broken parts. It is possible you have a broken firing pin. We'll probably never know.

It's best to do this at the range before you leave. In the unlikely event the round decides to discharge, there's a berm at the range.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks, Rastoff. I know how to disassemble the rifle...my mistake was not doing so before I no longer could. Believe me, I tried.

The berm on the range was on my neighbors adjoining property. Trust that I was careful to not put anyone (including myself, any animals or anyone else in our sparsely populated rural wooded subdivision) at risk.

The S&W custsvc rep asked me to stay in touch with him so hopefully he will be able to give me some useful info.

I will of course keep everyone apprised of any info I receive about out of spec headspace, broken parts or plain old user malfunction.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

How is the primer on the round that got stuck? Did it look normal or could it have been set in a little too much for the firing pin to contact it?

It could be a broken firing pin as others have said. However, even if that was the case, you still have a problem with the rifle as the round should have extracted. It could be as simple as a bad extractor, but I suspect there may be something off with the chamber or the bolt.

The brass from the first round (which actually fired and was ejected about 5' away from where I stood) appears to have a normal looking dimple on the primer.

The primer from the round that was ejected when I finally was able to drive the bolt rearward appears unstruck but both the casing and bullet (which appears to have had some copper shaved off) are deformed and scratched.

What I don't know is at what point the damage occurred. While loading into the breech or during the attempts to get the charging handle / bolt to the rear and extract the round. (Or whether there was a preexisting irregularity with that particular round that went unnoticed, however unlikely, when I loaded the PMAG that came with the rifle.)

I just took a couple of cell phone images and will post them up in a couple of minutes.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

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642-1, M&P15 TS

IMHO, this seems to be a somewhat common problem with Russian and some steel case ammo. It happened twice to me when using Sliver Bear and as a result, I only shoot American brass cased ammo. I had to use the rubber mallet on my charging handle and it does make you want to cry with every tap. I have NEVER had this problem with any other ammo.
Once you it cleared, try some good American ammo to see if it is the rifle or the ammo.

batmann, the wolf gold is Taiwanese for what it's worth, is brass cased and gets pretty rave reviews around here. (At least I haven't come across threads complaining about malfunctions deriving from its use.)

If it is the ammo I'm gonna be one sorry so and so since I have quite a bit of it on hand.

I do have some Hornady .223 ammo I can try out when it comes back...both brass (55gr duty ammo) and a lacquered steel case version for LE training purposes. (I've never fired any steel cased ammo but the S&W rep said that while they don't recommend it the M&P15 can handle it without issues. Maybe he should have said most of the time.)

Regarding the rubber mallet...I still feel sick over it today though I think I was pretty careful.

EDIT To Add:

It's on the FedEx truck on its way to Springfield, MA. Hopefully it won't be too long before it comes back home.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

It's not the ammo. I've run through 1K rounds of Wolf Gold. Looks like something on the rifle is out of spec. Send it back to the S&W mother ship and make use of that 1 year factory warranty. That's why you buy a factory complete rifle from a large, well known, manufacturer not some no-name small fry operation.

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-John

It's scheduled to touch down on Tuesday.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I believe you. However, that does make me scratch my head though. That round must have really been wedged in there. I just can't see how it would bind the gun up so much that the pins can't be driven out.

Oh well, we learn something new every day. It's too bad that S&W won't give you a more detailed description of what they find. You'll probably get a note along the lines of, "Replaced barrel" and nothing more.

I wasn't questioning your safety practices. It was more something to mention for anyone who might read this. I have seen guys take their guns, with live round still in the chamber, home in the car. To date, none have been an issue, but it would suck to have it go off in the car on the way home. Must be nice to have a range that close.

I'm glad you got it apart and off to S&W. Really strange problem.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks, Rastoff, no offense taken and I hope none given. I'm sure that given my mood throughout the day yesterday I probably could have chosen my words more wisely and didn't mean to come across snarkily. (And if I had been less taken aback by circumstances, (and more knowledgeable), perhaps I might have explored alternative solutions. But, as John says above, I'm probably much better off letting the pros attend to it while it is under the factory warranty.)

I hope to be able to get more out of them than a terse statement, (based upon what the CS rep led me to believe), but you all have much more experience than I do with S&W warranty service and their communications so I defer on that score.

I will keep you posted with anything I hear one way or the other.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

If something internal broke, then a small piece could have gotten wedged somewhere where it shouldn't have been, making the bolt/bolt carrier group/charging handle get stuck or bind.

Adding a few images just in case the S&W warranty folks can be induced to have a look:

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Anyone have an opinion on the comment in the quote above? This came from an acquaintance on another forum and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience which might support his theory?

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Nope. A broken or missing extractor spring wont' cause your issue. It can cause a failure to extract. However, it will not wedge the bolt closed or prevent you from separating the upper from the lower.

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Freedom isn't free.

I guess what I'm looking for is whether or not it might result in the bullet and case ending up in the condition illustrated in the images I've posted.

Here's further info that was provided by the same individual I quoted earlier:

In the quote above he is referring to a situation another forum member encountered due to what he believes may have been under powered ammo:

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642-1, M&P15 TS

It is more likely for a misfeed to occur if the ammo did not feed out of the mag correctly due some stacking issue, or the mag spring bound up somehow, and it could have gotten messed up as rifle tried to chamber the round. This can happen even with known good mags. After filling a mag, I will usually tap the back of the mag with my hand just to settle the rounds into place, before using the mag.

I was going to ask if you had lubed the bolt group, however I see in your original post that you stated that you had field stripped and lubed the rifle initially. I have experienced some misfeeds and bent rounds when I was new to AR15's on new rifles which were under lubed.

Perhaps I have been fortunate, I have literally shot thousands of rounds out of a few different AR15's and I have yet to have issues with extractors or extractor springs. Although I do have a couple that are getting a high enough round count for such things to start occuring. Perhaps one did slip through quality control, mistakes do happen, and new parts can be lemons sometimes too.

Perhaps the round got bent up enough that it got stuck in the chamber but wasn't seated far enough in for the firing pin to give it a full strike, i.e., with the bent round the bolt was just enough in battery to allow you to pull the trigger but not in enough to actually fire the round, not allowing the firing pin to protrude far enough through the bolt face to make contact with the primer, assuming this would be possible. It will be interesting to find out what Smith and Wesson has to say.

Same here. I've been doing that with every mag, (handgun or rifle), over the past 30 years or so. I did the same with the PMAG that I was using that day. (The one that came with the rifle.) I even gave the magazine a firm tap to ensure that it was seated while loading it into the rifle.

To tell you the truth, I've gone over the variables so many times and in so many ways that it makes my head spin. (I'm one of those guys, like many in the military or law enforcement, that does things in a fairly regimented way. Always load a certain way, handle firearms a certain way and clean and maintain the weapon immediately, or as soon as possible, after firing. So it's very irksome not to be able to shed more light on the matter from my own perspective.)

I appreciate your calm perspective and willingness to help.
The only AR I had before this rifle was a CAR-15 that was signed out of the armory at Homestead AFB when I was flying on Blackhawks as part of a narcotics interdiction crew in concert with Bahamian authorities in the late 80's. They were cleaned and maintained by the range officers so other than qualifying and clearing jams we didn't service them.

I was assigned and maintained a Steyr AUG for a several years during my SRT days and afterward, as well as an MP-5. Other than my Remington 870 that's my experience with long guns for the most part. Had I had more recent familiarity with the AR platform (beyond reading about and field stripping the TS) I might have more to offer in trying to solve this puzzle.

As it is I am grateful to those who have shared their thoughts on the matter and tried to help.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Looking at that round it appears to have been stepped on. I mean literally STEPPED ON. Because the case neck and bullet are at an angle relative to the body of the case. If this was present before it was first chambered I am not the least bit surprised that the bolt jammed. BTW, by design if the bolt isn't engaged in the chamber the firing pin cannot physically contact the primer, which is probably the reason why the primer wasn't hit.

I suspect that S&W won't find anything wrong with the rifle. IMO what we have hear is a single round of ammunition that fell on the plant floor and someone stepped on that round and then picked it up and placed in in a bin of product ready to be packaged. Or Bues7 dropped the round in the grass and did the same thing. BTW, I probably drop about 1 in 500 rounds of ammunition when I'm reloading so I won't criticize anyone for being fumble fingered at times. Best way to prevent chambering a damaged round is to give every round a look see and spin as you load it into a magazine.

The magazine was loaded by me while sitting on a rug in our bedroom. The magazines were brought to the "range" in a Blackhawk Sportster bag and put into the rifle without any incident.

Is it possible that I didn't see that the round was deformed while loading the magazine? Maybe. I was using a at the time so I was feeding them into the magazine fairly quickly.

Please don't imply that I have withheld anything in my report here. My honor means a lot to me and I don't care to have it impugned here or anywhere else for that matter. (Though I'm sure that's not your intent.)

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I had this happen using cheap steel case Tula Ammo, happened like 5 times before I decided to stop using that ammo. Could be the ammo, I'm not sure. I've been using good brand brass ammo and I've had ZERO issues since.

No implication of wrong doing on your part. The fact that one round fired and ejected properly, but the other did not, leaving you unable to pull the extractor handle back, indicates to me a defective round, causing it to not fully seat, wedging in the chamber, and as a result would not fire, as the bolt was in a slightly out of battery condition. Could be a bad chamber, but the first round caused no problem. The bad round may have been damaged in feeding from the P-Mag, or may have already been damaged / out of spec before hand. Just an educated guess...

Larry

Thanks for the input guys. Hopefully we'll have some useful info back in the not too distant future. And if not, I just hope I get back a rifle I can develop confidence in going forward. It was a big investment and I hope not one I'll end up regretting.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

There are any number of ways a .223Rem can be bent like that. I've set up Type III malfunctions (double feed) many times. During the process it's common for a round to get bent like that. My biggest concern is the scrape on the bullet. That can be caused by the throat of the chamber, but not usually.

However, my largest concern is the difficulty in disassembly. A bent round can prevent the bolt from fully closing. If the bolt doesn't fully close, the upper cannot be pivoted after the take down pin is removed. The fix is to remove the pivot pin and pull the upper forward a little and then they will come apart. The OP wasn't able to get the pivot pin out. That's what makes this weird. There must have been some upward pressure on the upper. That would make both pins difficult to remove.

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Freedom isn't free.

Rastoff, I don't believe I've ever said I couldn't get the pivot pin out.

When I released the rear pin I felt an obstruction preventing the upper from being separated and rotated away from the lower.

Fearing that I might do further damage to a platform I'm admittedly not an expert on, I did not force the issue. I had tried to separate them using what I thought was reasonable force but not destructive force. As a result, I did not fully remove the front pin and try to separate the upper and lower in the manner you describe above. Perhaps if I had the benefit of your knowledge and experience I might have attempted to do so.

When I spoke to the S&W rep on the phone I explained the process that I had followed. (And have provided a link to this thread for their use.) It was the rep (via his supervisor) that suggested that I try to dislodge the round by using the rubber mallet on the charging handle. They did not suggest or recommend trying to separate the upper and lower via the technique you recommend. Perhaps if they had we'd be in a different situation at the current moment.

All this to clarify that it wasn't that I was unable to force the separation but that I would not use more force than I felt was reasonable under the circumstances. I'm not inclined to destroy (through my own ignorance) a firearm valued at over $1,000.00

I hope this will disabuse you of the notion that I was saying that the pin couldn't be removed or that it would have been impossible for the rifle to be separated.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Ah, OK, now I see the miscommunication we had.


Here's what I said:To which you responded:So, you can see how I might have misunderstood. After I mentioned taking out both pins and you responding that you already tried, I surmised that you were having trouble with both pins.

My bad, your bad, our bad, this happens on the internet all the time. No offense intended toward you and certainly none taken by me.

It's certainly reasonable to not want to try to force anything. I still think you did the right thing by sending it in to S&W. You can't go wrong with that. Professionals will check it over and get it fixed up perfect for you.

I'm now convinced that you just had a stuck round in the chamber. It was preventing the bolt from fully closing which will prevent the upper from pivoting away with just the take down pin pulled.

If possible, next time some pics will help. I'm looking forward to your next range report with your rifle when it gets back.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm glad we're (apparently) on the same page now, Rastoff. And, I agree, no hard feelings.

Let me ask you a question based upon the following sequence now that we can put aside the argument about separating the upper from the lower:

After firing the first round and ejecting the case another round is stripped from the mag and brought forward to the chamber.

Obviously, something is amiss at this point because when I pull the trigger it goes click instead of bang.

I can pull the bolt back via the charging handle at this point and do so.
The round does not extract or eject. It looks, to my eye, that a round is seated in the chamber with an intact primer. (I cannot see any deformity at this point.)

The bolt is locked back and the magazine is removed.

I release the charging handle and the bolt goes forward but a trigger pull still results in a click instead of a boom.

At this point I can no longer pull the charging handle back despite pulling with force. What changed? Did the extractor just get caught on the rim of a stuck round? (Was this because the bolt went further forward?) Why did it take pretty firm mallet blows to ultimately release?

At the point I felt the charging handle begin to finally unseize I pulled it back forcefully and the round was ejected.

I'll look forward to your reply based upon the described sequence.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I suspect that the second round was bent enough that it prevented the extractor from snapping over the rear of the case. Because of this and the limited viewing angle available it simply looked like the round was chambered when it was standing perhaps 1/4 in proud. Then when you dropped the bolt the second time the round was driven just a bit deeper AND the extractor snapped over the case head. End result of this sequence would be exactly what you observed. So, basically one single defective round of ammunition was all it took to jam up a perfectly good rifle. BTW, because you reported that your magazine was only lacking the round that fired and the round that jammed things up I believe a double feed scenario does not apply.

Bottomline is that you had a bad experience caused by one single defective cartridge that was probably packed that way at the factory. IMO you will find your new rifle is perfectly reliable and that when using budget ammunition it may be necessary to look each round over before using it. I also think that it will be 5 years or more before you find another defective cartridge.

Scooter, I can't argue with that logic. Once the S&W pros get around to inspecting the firearm we'll (hopefully) know if it was just that simple or if there is more to the story.

I'll be very interested to find out whether there is damage to the BCG, chamber, barrel etc and what parts may need replacing in that eventuality.

I hope you're right in your assessment regarding future defective cartridges if it turns out that was in fact the case. Well, even if it isn't I'd still just as soon avoid them on general principle alone.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

All the reason to get a BCM or raptor charging handle.


Frog lube, lots of it

I hope they do send you a list of what they did. I think in the past we have seen more of a replaced this part type thing with no explanation of what was actually bad. For them it is probably easier to just put in a new bolt (BCG) then to waste man hours finding out why a bolt was bad.

Rich, I imagine we'll be at the mercy of the two customer support reps I've spoken with in regard to the quality of info to be received. Hopefully they can encourage the service technician(s) to elaborate or provide more detail than what seems to be the norm.

I've sent them emails with copies of the images and links to this thread and the rep I spoke with yesterday told me that he would append the work order with that info. So I guess there's still hope.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I'm a little pressed for time at the moment, but I will respond to this with a detailed explanation and some pictures later tonight. However, scooter123 has pretty much covered what I'm thinking.


I'm a big fan of Frog Lube, but it needs to be used sparingly. Using too much has caused some issues.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks, Rastoff. I'll look forward to it. (I kind of anticipated with my comments in the sequence of events where I thought the train of thought would lead but wanted to have it fleshed out by those who've been down that road.)

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642-1, M&P15 TS

OK, here we go. As I said, I believe scooter123 has already covered it, but I just want to put it in pictures. I like visuals.

First of all, under normal operation, when the bolt carrier is closed, it will sit flush with the back of the upper receiver:


If it stands proud, even a little bit, it will prevent the upper from being pivoted because the bolt carrier will protrude into the buffer tube:


This is why you couldn't separate the upper from the lower. Which leaves us with the question, why was it back?

When operating properly, the bolt will be fully closed when a round is chambered. Notice that there is little to no gap at the front of the ejection port:


However, if a round fails to fully enter the chamber, the bolt carrier group will not fully close:

Notice the gap. The arrow is actually pointing at the extractor. This is exaggerated a little for illustration, but even a gap as small as 1/8" (maybe even less) is enough to prevent the gun from firing.

It is not uncommon for even experienced users to miss this. It is easy to overlook. This is why the forward assist was invented. Had you utilized the forward assist to close the bolt, it probably would have fired. Of course, it's entirely possible that even with the forward assist, you wouldn't have been able to get it fully closed.

When fully in battery (closed) the bolt compresses into the bolt carrier and rotates to lock the bolt closed. When in this position, the rear of the firing pin stands proud of the bolt carrier:


If it does not close fully, the bolt will hold the firing pin forward. This causes the firing pin to be encapsulated by the bolt carrier:

When in this position, the hammer cannot strike the firing pin. You will still hear a click, but the hammer will strike the bolt carrier where the arrow is pointing. This is why there was no dent in the primer.

Because the cartridge was bent, it couldn't fully seat in the chamber. This prevented the bolt carrier group from going fully into battery. Because it was trying to seat the cartridge, it jammed the cartridge in as far as it could wedging it in place. When the bolt carrier was released the second time, the extractor snapped onto the rim of the stuck case. This prevented the bolt carrier from easily being retracted the second time.

If this happened in the field, this is a situation where "mortaring" would be the proper technique to fix it. That is a discussion for later.

And, just to drive home what we've already hashed out, here are the two pins to remove to take the gun down:

The red arrow indicates the take-down pin and the green arrow indicates the pivot pin. When the upper cannot be pivoted away from the lower after removing the take-down pin, removing the pivot pin should allow the upper to be moved forward for the bolt carrier to clear the buffer tube. Of course we've already been through this. I just wanted to show it in a picture.

p.s.
Yes, I know my gun looks dirty. Hey, it's a battle rifle and gets used regularly. It's clean where it needs to be.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks, Rastoff, for going to the time and effort of supplying both the images and commentary.

Though I failed to mention it in my sequence of events, I did in fact try to employ the forward assist (a couple of times) but I did not rap it with force (as I'd read about possible issues deriving from doing so or exacerbating existing ones). I merely pushed on it firmly but without it having any apparent effect.

I wasn't aware of the mortaring technique at the time the issue arose but John (JaPes) sent me a link to a video demonstrating it when I began the thread. Not sure if it would have transferred more or less stress to the rifle than my rubber mallet did in the end but I'm glad to know about the technique for future reference.

On another note, I received an email from S&W this morning stating that the rifle was rec'd and providing me with the RMA number.

Thanks again.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I would have tried a new round after I got the bad one out.

At that point I was home on my property and S&W had specifically asked me to send it back to them as soon as I got the round removed. Since I didn't (and don't) know the extent of any damage that might have been done I thought that discretion in this instance might be the better part of valor.

It's all grist for the mill now.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

And it's exactly this kind of "grist" that makes us all smarter and better able to deal with these little hiccups.

Thanks for sharing with us.

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Freedom isn't free.

It's me that owes thanks to all who have taken the time to contribute here...but I'm happy to have been able to share my own little saga and hope that it may prove useful to others who, like me, are relatively new to the platform.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Good info. in this post. This will definitely help folks in the future when similar things happen.